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Author Topic: USBC and Storm  (Read 19470 times)

Remmah

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USBC and Storm
« on: April 21, 2022, 08:03:45 PM »
It appears the ball issue between Storm and USBC is far from over

 

TappaKegga

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Re: USBC and Storm
« Reply #61 on: April 25, 2022, 07:32:31 PM »
I don't have a dog in the fight/debate, as I don't own any of the balls (still I have all 900 Global).

I saw the Storm video, and only one other poster mentioned the same as I observed.  The two durometers were suspect to me.  IF both were IDENTICAL and calibrated, WHY did one show "Clr" after each punch, while the other displayed "Zero"?  There is even a dot on the display that is different from one another.  Additionally, there are random numbers displayed after each clear/zero...one on left mostly had 0, while the one on right had mostly 1 (I also saw a 2, 3, and even a 4 at various times in the other tests too).  Doesn't seem like they were the "same" and certainly makes it seem questionable.  I don't know anything about the durometers though.

Also, when comparing surfaces and temperature, using two different balls (of the same model) to demonstrate possible variability is suspect to me.  To truly show variability, it should be the same exact ball, not two different balls that in "theory" should be identical.  Heck, one could have been soaked in MEK, right??  (Just kidding)

Also, found it funny that when they were comparing the testing lab values (Day 1 vs Day 2), all were very consistent except one, that was 3 points off from Day 1 to Day 2.  That would make me question why that lab was so variable...maybe even to excluding their values in the example, but by including it it "statistically" broadened the range Storm was trying to say "look....results could be all over the place".

Just thought it funny and I'm just a league bowler and not a scientist/engineer!
« Last Edit: April 25, 2022, 07:35:14 PM by TappaKegga »

avabob

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Re: USBC and Storm
« Reply #62 on: April 25, 2022, 07:44:12 PM »
USBC and ABC have been behind the curve from a technological standpoint for 50 years.  In the 70s they mandated a flat oil procedure that would be comparable to a US Open pattern today.  They promoted a short oil block in the 80s thinking the short pattern would take away hold area that "steered" the ball to the pocket.  After outlawing the super soft polyester balls in the 70s they barely took note of the resin enhanced balls that made soft polyester look like a ping pong ball in comparison.  Today they really have no idea what a couple of points in hardness has on ball reaction
« Last Edit: April 25, 2022, 07:46:27 PM by avabob »

Strider

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Re: USBC and Storm
« Reply #63 on: April 26, 2022, 05:55:33 AM »
And from all my dealing with them they are arrogant enough to think they would never be caught if they were too soft.

How have you "dealt" with Storm personally?

itsallaboutme

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Re: USBC and Storm
« Reply #64 on: April 26, 2022, 06:11:38 AM »
I've run pro shops for other people, owned a pro shop, worked for 2 ball manufacturers and at the time I was there, one of the big 3 online retailers with their own private label balls.

Bowler19525

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Re: USBC and Storm
« Reply #65 on: April 26, 2022, 10:24:44 AM »
I don't have a dog in the fight/debate, as I don't own any of the balls (still I have all 900 Global).

I saw the Storm video, and only one other poster mentioned the same as I observed.  The two durometers were suspect to me.  IF both were IDENTICAL and calibrated, WHY did one show "Clr" after each punch, while the other displayed "Zero"?  There is even a dot on the display that is different from one another.  Additionally, there are random numbers displayed after each clear/zero...one on left mostly had 0, while the one on right had mostly 1 (I also saw a 2, 3, and even a 4 at various times in the other tests too).  Doesn't seem like they were the "same" and certainly makes it seem questionable.  I don't know anything about the durometers though.

Also, when comparing surfaces and temperature, using two different balls (of the same model) to demonstrate possible variability is suspect to me.  To truly show variability, it should be the same exact ball, not two different balls that in "theory" should be identical.  Heck, one could have been soaked in MEK, right??  (Just kidding)

Also, found it funny that when they were comparing the testing lab values (Day 1 vs Day 2), all were very consistent except one, that was 3 points off from Day 1 to Day 2.  That would make me question why that lab was so variable...maybe even to excluding their values in the example, but by including it it "statistically" broadened the range Storm was trying to say "look....results could be all over the place".

Just thought it funny and I'm just a league bowler and not a scientist/engineer!

I agree.  The Storm video was definitely marketing "fluff" and had some issues.

Alex shows the difference in the readings between the 2 durometers.  Then when showing the differences between a non-polished ball and a polished ball, uses only one of the durometers but doesn't mention which one he was using (assuming he was using the one that reads "higher".)

When comparing the non-polished vs. polished ball, he refers to the use of "generic" polish.  Why not specifically mention the use of Storm branded polish?  Perhaps there was some concern that would not help their case if viewers associated lower readings with the use of their own polish...

Used 2 different balls for the comparison.  Should have at the very least tested the non-polished ball, then polished that specific ball, and retested it to show any differences.

Specifically discusses that Storm uses a device to ensure consistent durometer pressure during testing.  Even demonstrates the device in the video.  Then proceeds to administer testing manually.  How do we know he wasn't manipulating the durometer pressure in the video to exaggerate the results?

The video certainly demonstrated that there is the opportunity for numerous variances when performing hardness testing, however their video had its own set of problems and did nothing to quell any controversy.  If anything, it perfectly demonstrates why the USBC doesn't have the transparency with their testing that everyone is clamoring for.  It wouldn't be productive.  First people will question the USBC's hardness testing, then they will question the cover stock absorption rate tests, RG and diff testing, friction testing, CoR testing, etc.

The USBC has tested and approved thousands of balls and we never cared about how they did it.  Out of all of the balls they have tested, there is only one page of balls that are not approved.  Out of that, there are 8 recent balls that get revoked/excluded and all of a sudden we care about the testing.  Motiv admitted to their Jackal issue and fixed it.  Brunswick accepted the decision on the "6" and "7" Kentucky Purple Hammers that became their problem due to the acquisition and replaced the balls.  Storm pitches a fit all over social media and all of a sudden people are up in arms and demanding full transparency to the ball testing.  99.9% of those people would have no idea what they were watching if the USBC had a "ball testing" cam or some other way of disclosing the procedures.

The USBC is far from a perfect organization and I am not a fan.  It definitely needs new leadership.  However I also don't necessarily care about the ball testing, or who or where it is done.  Is the ball on the approved list?  Great!  Is the ball excluded?  OK, I will not use it.  Is the ball banned now?  Whatever, I will exchange it or throw it out.  If I don't like or agree with the rules or format of a tournament, I simply don't bowl in it.

We buy and use products and services all the time that undergo testing and we never see or care about the procedure (medicine, medical tests, cars, tires, food, drinks, textiles, construction materials, etc.)  There reaches a point where you just have to rely on the testing having been done correctly.  Products fall through the cracks and get recalled and replaced all the time.  It happens.

avabob

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Re: USBC and Storm
« Reply #66 on: April 26, 2022, 10:28:38 AM »
Anyone remember mill holes?

Juggernaut

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Re: USBC and Storm
« Reply #67 on: April 26, 2022, 11:32:33 AM »
Anyone remember mill holes?

 Yes.

 Often wondered about that "spot" on the ball, until I found out what it was.
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acread

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Re: USBC and Storm
« Reply #68 on: April 26, 2022, 05:54:24 PM »

The USBC has tested and approved thousands of balls and we never cared about how they did it.  Out of all of the balls they have tested, there is only one page of balls that are not approved.  Out of that, there are 8 recent balls that get revoked/excluded and all of a sudden we care about the testing.  Motiv admitted to their Jackal issue and fixed it.  Brunswick accepted the decision on the "6" and "7" Kentucky Purple Hammers that became their problem due to the acquisition and replaced the balls.  Storm pitches a fit all over social media and all of a sudden people are up in arms and demanding full transparency to the ball testing.  99.9% of those people would have no idea what they were watching if the USBC had a "ball testing" cam or some other way of disclosing the procedures.

The USBC is far from a perfect organization and I am not a fan.  It definitely needs new leadership.  However I also don't necessarily care about the ball testing, or who or where it is done.  Is the ball on the approved list?  Great!  Is the ball excluded?  OK, I will not use it.  Is the ball banned now?  Whatever, I will exchange it or throw it out.  If I don't like or agree with the rules or format of a tournament, I simply don't bowl in it.

We buy and use products and services all the time that undergo testing and we never see or care about the procedure (medicine, medical tests, cars, tires, food, drinks, textiles, construction materials, etc.)  There reaches a point where you just have to rely on the testing having been done correctly.  Products fall through the cracks and get recalled and replaced all the time.  It happens.

Very well said.  Frankly, it's surprising how many (usually) smart people can't bring themselves to accept that Storm might have actually made a manufacturing mistake.  It happens in every field and a lot more often than we realize.  It's usually due to a combination of inattentiveness, hubris, and/or human error, and I'm sure it happened here.  All the complaining about USBC's various issues doesn't change the fact that Storm screwed up, and they're just making it worse by keeping the issue in the spotlight instead of moving on.
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JessN16

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Re: USBC and Storm
« Reply #69 on: April 26, 2022, 10:48:02 PM »
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All the complaining about USBC's various issues doesn't change the fact that Storm screwed up, and they're just making it worse by keeping the issue in the spotlight instead of moving on.

That's definitely your take on it, but you don't speak for me with those words.

What makes this a different situation than General Mills having to recall a truckload of cereal boxes is twofold, for me: One, the bowling industry isn't rich enough to have to take multimillion-dollar hits over miniscule errors in production. The companies that support this sport are not rich enough.

But the much greater problem here is a sanctioning body that will neither recognize that fact, nor take common-sense steps to find middle ground between fixing the problem and causing more problems through either shoddy testing on its own part, or a lack of transparency with its stakeholders (i.e., us, the card-carrying members).

An earlier post talked about how Motiv fixed the Jackal problem. Well, that's half right. Motiv was nearly bankrupted over that. Moreover, Motiv didn't really have a choice, because the USBC doesn't answer to anyone, and too many of its members would give the USBC carte blanche to operate however it wishes. I see some of that attitude in this thread, including your post.

The way to have fixed this was to notify Storm -- and Motiv, and Hammer -- of issues and have them fix those issues immediately in the production run and going forward, but not forcing the old equipment out, and putting the companies on the hook for millions in reparations to bowlers that most of the bowlers didn't really want to have to receive in the first place. Jeff Richgels has a fantastic article on 11thFrame right now where he interviews three guys qualified to speak about the testing from an engineering standpoint, and the overarching point is that balls out of spec by fractions don't offer enough performance advantage for it to matter in the first place. It's not like the Storm equipment was punching 60. It certainly wasn't enough of a margin to cause the fallout that it has. But there's an attitude within the USBC that they can basically do what they want and no one will hold them accountable for collateral damage so long as they get to whip out the stick and swing it around.

And even if people want to argue against the science and try to claim that these balls did offer clear and nefarious advantages to the bowlers, resin balls take themselves out of bags after a couple hundred games at most, anyway. Assuming that the balls landed in the hands of bowlers skilled enough to actually do something with them when they were fresh, the problem would have taken care of itself. But like I just said, that would be counter to what the experts quoted in Richgels' article had to say about it.

My perspective as a bowler is that the USBC's first priority in all things is to copy a doctor's oath: "First, do no harm." They objectively failed that test here miserably. And Storm is not "making it worse" -- if anything, if Storm is able to pressure the USBC to think twice before going down this road again in the future, then go Storm, go.

billdozer

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Re: USBC and Storm
« Reply #70 on: April 26, 2022, 10:55:39 PM »
How do we know a competitor company didn't notice the durometer difference, and the USBC had to act?

I'm not certain that the USBC is that on top of things, but I didn't forget the motiv situation...it seems more probable to me. Company A reports company B etc etc....to usbc
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bradl

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Re: USBC and Storm
« Reply #71 on: April 26, 2022, 11:32:31 PM »
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All the complaining about USBC's various issues doesn't change the fact that Storm screwed up, and they're just making it worse by keeping the issue in the spotlight instead of moving on.

That's definitely your take on it, but you don't speak for me with those words.

What makes this a different situation than General Mills having to recall a truckload of cereal boxes is twofold, for me: One, the bowling industry isn't rich enough to have to take multimillion-dollar hits over miniscule errors in production. The companies that support this sport are not rich enough.

But the much greater problem here is a sanctioning body that will neither recognize that fact, nor take common-sense steps to find middle ground between fixing the problem and causing more problems through either shoddy testing on its own part, or a lack of transparency with its stakeholders (i.e., us, the card-carrying members).

Amazing how those people upset about Storm and this issue don't say a single thing about the FDA when it comes to that box of Cocoa Puffs, Cheerios, and Kix are recalled due to those errors in production, and they are the governing body over food, let alone the USDA.

You're trying to have it both ways in your example, but can't. Either be upset about both the General Mills and Storm, or be upset about the USBC and the FDA. If you're upset about one and not the other, then welcome to your own hypocrisy.

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An earlier post talked about how Motiv fixed the Jackal problem. Well, that's half right. Motiv was nearly bankrupted over that. Moreover, Motiv didn't really have a choice, because the USBC doesn't answer to anyone, and too many of its members would give the USBC carte blanche to operate however it wishes. I see some of that attitude in this thread, including your post.

Then again, carte blanche to the FDA because of General Mills' "miniscule errors"?

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The way to have fixed this was to notify Storm -- and Motiv, and Hammer -- of issues and have them fix those issues immediately in the production run and going forward, but not forcing the old equipment out, and putting the companies on the hook for millions in reparations to bowlers that most of the bowlers didn't really want to have to receive in the first place. Jeff Richgels has a fantastic article on 11thFrame right now where he interviews three guys qualified to speak about the testing from an engineering standpoint, and the overarching point is that balls out of spec by fractions don't offer enough performance advantage for it to matter in the first place. It's not like the Storm equipment was punching 60. It certainly wasn't enough of a margin to cause the fallout that it has. But there's an attitude within the USBC that they can basically do what they want and no one will hold them accountable for collateral damage so long as they get to whip out the stick and swing it around.

Yet by contrast, Ron Hickland, who not only interviewed the person that did all of the durometer testing at EBI, but is himself is experienced in the manufacturing and testing of balls from an engineering standpoint (hell, he created the gas mask core), said effectively the opposite and that the USBC was indeed correct in their decision to sin bin the balls that they binned. But Riggs is right and Hickland is wrong?

Oh wait; Riggs himself is a Storm Staffer, so there obviously isn't any bias there.  ::)

And before saying the same about Hickland, he left EBI in 2015, well before the the Purple Hammer was created, let alone the BoB buyout.

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And even if people want to argue against the science and try to claim that these balls did offer clear and nefarious advantages to the bowlers, resin balls take themselves out of bags after a couple hundred games at most, anyway.

Umm... yet they get replaced with similar because of how great the ball works for the bowler that they want either the same ball again or similar. But the issue isn't what the balls do over time; the issue is what they are doing when they are at their best, and fresh out of the box. That's what they got pinged on. Going 34 weeks and 200 games down the road is irrelevant at that point.

But then again, we have a PBA bowler who complained about the same with urethane, which for all intents and purposes was 5-6 years outside of people's bags, and got it banned. Further than that, with the PBA, he got 40 years of balls banned.

Again, can't have it both ways, where urethane gets banned for being its best over the journey, while saying resin takes itself out of the bag after a couple hundred games. Hell, I went 6 years with using a Scandal, Scandal Pearl, Mission Unknown, and Maverick in my bag, and none of them lost anything in performance: no resurfacing, sock to get oil out, or anything major; the only thing used was PowerHouse finish, or Clean'n'Dull.

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Assuming that the balls landed in the hands of bowlers skilled enough to actually do something with them when they were fresh, the problem would have taken care of itself. But like I just said, that would be counter to what the experts quoted in Richgels' article had to say about it.

My perspective as a bowler is that the USBC's first priority in all things is to copy a doctor's oath: "First, do no harm." They objectively failed that test here miserably. And Storm is not "making it worse" -- if anything, if Storm is able to pressure the USBC to think twice before going down this road again in the future, then go Storm, go.

Then you would agree that the Purple Hammer shouldn't have been banned, nor a 2-year rolling urethane ban in the PBA, the Jackal should be back in, the Gamebreaker should be back in, everyone's robot arm gear should be back in, soakers should be back in, and everyone should not have any problem with it whatsoever, despite their complaining about it.

Then also consider this; if the KPBA, JPBA, and the WTBA come up with the same results as the USBC, then what is Storm's recourse? Bully them into submission because Storm is too big to fail? We see where that got us with Bear Stearns, Merrill Lynch, Goldman Sachs, MCI/Worldcom, Arthur Andersen, Enron, and Tyco.

But I digress.

BL.

acread

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Re: USBC and Storm
« Reply #72 on: April 27, 2022, 12:18:53 AM »
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All the complaining about USBC's various issues doesn't change the fact that Storm screwed up, and they're just making it worse by keeping the issue in the spotlight instead of moving on.

That's definitely your take on it, but you don't speak for me with those words.

I would never pretend to speak for anybody else.  Sorry you seem to feel differently.

What makes this a different situation than General Mills having to recall a truckload of cereal boxes is twofold, for me: One, the bowling industry isn't rich enough to have to take multimillion-dollar hits over miniscule errors in production. The companies that support this sport are not rich enough.

FYI, I work in a mid-to-high level position for a leading company in a niche market, and I am very aware of the potential damage a multimillion dollar hit can create.  I completely agree that a situation that puts a company like Storm in a financially jeopardized position should be avoided if possible.

But the much greater problem here is a sanctioning body that will neither recognize that fact, nor take common-sense steps to find middle ground between fixing the problem and causing more problems through either shoddy testing on its own part, or a lack of transparency with its stakeholders (i.e., us, the card-carrying members).

I don't actually think the USBC needs to be overly beholden to its members on this topic when it comes to the technical aspects of it.  Transparency would definitely be appreciated, but the vast majority of bowlers have no expertise on this topic other than what they've learned in the last few months.  Information is awesome and personally I love getting as much as possible, but I try to assimilate it with the humility and understanding that I am not and will never be an expert.  You might want to try that at some point.

An earlier post talked about how Motiv fixed the Jackal problem. Well, that's half right. Motiv was nearly bankrupted over that. Moreover, Motiv didn't really have a choice, because the USBC doesn't answer to anyone, and too many of its members would give the USBC carte blanche to operate however it wishes. I see some of that attitude in this thread, including your post.

The way to have fixed this was to notify Storm -- and Motiv, and Hammer -- of issues and have them fix those issues immediately in the production run and going forward, but not forcing the old equipment out, and putting the companies on the hook for millions in reparations to bowlers that most of the bowlers didn't really want to have to receive in the first place.

Two points here: 1) It's completely possible that Storm has been making illegal balls for some time now and the USBC took the approach you suggested.  However, the issues were not addressed sufficiently and further action needed to be taken.  I have no idea if this is the case, but it would change things a bit.  2) If it got out that the USBC knowingly approved illegal balls and let it slide with a vague "just do better" slap on the wrist, the admittedly shaky reputation of the organization would be destroyed because of the complete lack of integrity exercised.  It would surrender all ability to act impartially as an overseer of the sport.

Jeff Richgels has a fantastic article on 11thFrame right now where he interviews three guys qualified to speak about the testing from an engineering standpoint, and the overarching point is that balls out of spec by fractions don't offer enough performance advantage for it to matter in the first place. It's not like the Storm equipment was punching 60. It certainly wasn't enough of a margin to cause the fallout that it has. But there's an attitude within the USBC that they can basically do what they want and no one will hold them accountable for collateral damage so long as they get to whip out the stick and swing it around.

And even if people want to argue against the science and try to claim that these balls did offer clear and nefarious advantages to the bowlers, resin balls take themselves out of bags after a couple hundred games at most, anyway. Assuming that the balls landed in the hands of bowlers skilled enough to actually do something with them when they were fresh, the problem would have taken care of itself. But like I just said, that would be counter to what the experts quoted in Richgels' article had to say about it.

The last two paragraphs are generally fair points, though many experts have argued that the balls when fresh do present excellent bowlers with a clear advantage.  How much is arguable, but an advantage exists.  It would only be with significant use that the advantage would deteriorate

My perspective as a bowler is that the USBC's first priority in all things is to copy a doctor's oath: "First, do no harm." They objectively failed that test here miserably. And Storm is not "making it worse" -- if anything, if Storm is able to pressure the USBC to think twice before going down this road again in the future, then go Storm, go.

Trying to pressure the USBC to not abide by its own rules that are clear and have been followed consistently and well for the last twenty years or so by all ball manufacturers seems unwise.  Keeping a situation that has been a marketing and sales disaster, not to mention a drain on the industry as a whole, at the forefront of people's minds is not a good way to sell more equipment.  It's simply a good way to make sure that as many people as possible don't trust you and question your judgment.  The way to move forward and minimize damage is to admit at least some fault and put it behind you as quickly as possible, not live in the past and deny responsibility over and over.  Your pettiness and desire to punish the USBC for its perceived flaws is bad business.  The durometer video was a big mistake.  The 4K - Fast video, on the other hand, was an excellent idea.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2022, 12:34:04 AM by acread »
Yeah, well, you know, that’s just, like, your opinion, man.

JessN16

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Re: USBC and Storm
« Reply #73 on: April 27, 2022, 02:54:29 AM »
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Amazing how those people upset about Storm and this issue don't say a single thing about the FDA when it comes to that box of Cocoa Puffs, Cheerios, and Kix are recalled due to those errors in production, and they are the governing body over food, let alone the USDA.

You're absolutely right, bradl ... because I don't eat bowling balls.

Furthermore, the USDA is a government agency with specific legal powers. The USBC is a 501(c)(3) non-profit, and not a very well-run one at that.

That's before you even get to my original point in that comparison, which is the size of General Mills or Kelloggs compared to what amounts to a niche plastics company making product for a recreational activity. No, it's not even remotely on par. The ball companies should get a lot more leeway than something my body has to ingest.

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Yet by contrast, Ron Hickland, who not only interviewed the person that did all of the durometer testing at EBI, but is himself is experienced in the manufacturing and testing of balls from an engineering standpoint (hell, he created the gas mask core), said effectively the opposite and that the USBC was indeed correct in their decision to sin bin the balls that they binned. But Riggs is right and Hickland is wrong?

Oh wait; Riggs himself is a Storm Staffer, so there obviously isn't any bias there.  ::)

And before saying the same about Hickland, he left EBI in 2015, well before the the Purple Hammer was created, let alone the BoB buyout.

Richgels isn't making these statements, the experts are. If you read the article, you'll notice all three had bowling ball experience -- one each from Storm, one from Columbia 300 and another who had worked with Mo Pinel. The latter two also worked previously with the USBC in its testing department.

On top of that, Richgels' arrangement with his primary employer stipulates he observes the same level of journalistic standards for his work on 11thframe that he does for the newspaper that is his daily job. So if you're going to throw shade on him for being a Storm staffer (due to his ability, if you know anything about his actual bowling career), I'd say you need to have proof of it before you slander him with the charge of bias.

Not sure what Hickland has to do with any of that but if you're going to shade Riggs and not Hickland due to the companies the two of them worked with, I'd call that more than a bit hypocritical.

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Umm... yet they get replaced with similar because of how great the ball works for the bowler that they want either the same ball again or similar. But the issue isn't what the balls do over time; the issue is what they are doing when they are at their best, and fresh out of the box. That's what they got pinged on. Going 34 weeks and 200 games down the road is irrelevant at that point.

But then again, we have a PBA bowler who complained about the same with urethane, which for all intents and purposes was 5-6 years outside of people's bags, and got it banned. Further than that, with the PBA, he got 40 years of balls banned.

Again, can't have it both ways, where urethane gets banned for being its best over the journey, while saying resin takes itself out of the bag after a couple hundred games. Hell, I went 6 years with using a Scandal, Scandal Pearl, Mission Unknown, and Maverick in my bag, and none of them lost anything in performance: no resurfacing, sock to get oil out, or anything major; the only thing used was PowerHouse finish, or Clean'n'Dull.

I don't think old urethane should have been thrown out, either, but at least there is evidence that old urethane gets softer, while old resin goes the other direction and continues to cure.

If you're sore at Sean Rash, just say so. Because that's what this is now beginning to sound like. I doubt Rash triggered this; he says a lot of dumb stuff when he's struggling on TV.

Finally, the PBA has very visibly sided with Storm on this, anyway, keeping the balls in play and noting that their testing does not produce the same results as the USBC's. That may have been the most damaging development to the USBC in all this, when the PBA basically said they didn't see what the fuss was over.

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Then you would agree that the Purple Hammer shouldn't have been banned, nor a 2-year rolling urethane ban in the PBA, the Jackal should be back in, the Gamebreaker should be back in ...

Absolutely should be back in. So should my Visionary AMB Gold Centaur with a .700 diff. By now its cover is too weak to perform on anything but the driest burn, anyway. Jackal should never have been out in the first place.

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... everyone's robot arm gear should be back in, soakers should be back in, and everyone should not have any problem with it whatsoever, despite their complaining about it.

Wrist braces aren't illegal in the USBC. That's a PBA national rule and I'm not a PBA member, so if they want to ban those, I don't carry one of their cards like I do a USBC card and that's not my acre.

Soaker, let's be serious for a moment. The act of soaking is to take a legal piece of equipment and knowingly make it illegal to gain an advantage. There is specific intent on the part of the bowler, not the company. That's not apples and oranges, that's apples and Volkswagens.

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Then also consider this; if the KPBA, JPBA, and the WTBA come up with the same results as the USBC, then what is Storm's recourse? Bully them into submission because Storm is too big to fail? We see where that got us with Bear Stearns, Merrill Lynch, Goldman Sachs, MCI/Worldcom, Arthur Andersen, Enron, and Tyco.

I guess we'll see. The only other accredited sanctioning body to test the stuff besides the USBC so far, that we know of, is the PBA, and the PBA deemed them legal. So the USBC is 0-for-1 already. As for the other companies you list, again we are talking about unlike things. Each of those companies you mention were either so tied to the general economy and dependent on credit markets that they couldn't survive nadirs in the global financial world, and/or they were brought down internally (i.e., Tyco) by incredible amounts of greed, theft and other malfeasance. None of that is comparable to one of the 5-10 companies holding up the bowling industry putting out a bowling ball that failed a durometer punch by 0.3.

JessN16

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Re: USBC and Storm
« Reply #74 on: April 27, 2022, 03:28:06 AM »
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I don't actually think the USBC needs to be overly beholden to its members on this topic when it comes to the technical aspects of it.  Transparency would definitely be appreciated, but the vast majority of bowlers have no expertise on this topic other than what they've learned in the last few months.  Information is awesome and personally I love getting as much as possible, but I try to assimilate it with the humility and understanding that I am not and will never be an expert.  You might want to try that at some point.

I'm not an expert on it, either, which is why we have to rely on experts to interpret the data for us. So far, the only person or group that has agreed with the USBC ... is the USBC. The independent experts who have looked at it, as well as the PBA, believe the USBC was off-base. I'm not going to give the USBC a pass just because they are playing the role of police here.

Also not sure what my "humility" has to do with things. If I'm not showing "humility" when I criticize the USBC, then I'll live with the lack thereof.

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(M)any experts have argued that the balls when fresh do present excellent bowlers with a clear advantage.  How much is arguable, but an advantage exists.  It would only be with significant use that the advantage would deteriorate.

Given the PBA's stance on this matter, it would seem unlikely. The PBA is not only keeping these balls in use, they're still drilling fresh ones on the truck. I would consider the PBA a better arbiter of what that equipment could do solely in the hands of elite bowlers than the USBC, so if they believed the difference was anything but marginal, they'd have erred on the side of caution early.

I've also been trying to steer clear of any brand-loyal bickering, not just because I use equipment from every manufacturer except for BIG but because there are a lot of Yankees-Red Sox kind of whataboutism going on across various bowling sites right now, but the PBA found issue with old urethane (which affected B7 more than Storm, Jesper Svensson nothwithstanding) and not with SPI's balls, so it's not like the PBA has its head buried in the sand about the whole issue. The fact they moved on one but not the other is an important data point.

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Trying to pressure the USBC to not abide by its own rules that are clear and have been followed consistently and well for the last twenty years or so by all ball manufacturers seems unwise.  Keeping a situation that has been a marketing and sales disaster, not to mention a drain on the industry as a whole, at the forefront of people's minds is not a good way to sell more equipment.  It's simply a good way to make sure that as many people as possible don't trust you and question your judgment.  The way to move forward and minimize damage is to admit at least some fault and put it behind you as quickly as possible, not live in the past and deny responsibility over and over.  Your pettiness and desire to punish the USBC for its perceived flaws is bad business.  The durometer video was a big mistake.  The 4K - Fast video, on the other hand, was an excellent idea.

* The USBC approved the balls, then conducted tests no one can replicate, and threw the equipment out, even though some fell within established and accepted ranges of tolerance for durometers per experts in the field. I do not see that as the USBC following any rules, its own or otherwise.

* It's a marketing and sales disaster only because the USBC made it one by bending Storm over the knee at the end of a process that cannot be duplicated by other testers. The caveat here is that if the USBC were to prove Storm deliberately knew of a defect and perpetrated it anyway, the game changes. But Storm's durometer video doesn't get made if that was the case, probably.

* Sowing distrust among members, members becoming wary of the USBC: I was already there, for reasons that had nothing to do with equipment. And then the Jackal issue came along, so I've been there on issues of equipment, too, for some time. (edit: And I never owned a Jackal myself ... the whole thing just smelled.)

* Storm's video responses: From this distance, it looks like the durometer video was one or both of two things, either hammering the point down that durometer testing of bowling balls is more scattershot than the USBC manual suggests, and/or Storm's own move to backstop a future legal battle if the USBC decided to come back and try to reopen the case for any reason after already declaring it closed.

In the end, I can only say how I'm going to move forward, and that's by saying I think a lot of shine has come off the USBC rose over this -- not that things were really all that healthy to begin with. I've done my best to rep the organization to fellow bowlers and also to people I tried to recruit to join sanctioned leagues, but it's affected my desire to continue to do that. Our house is very divided right now and I don't think we're going to fix it by doubling down on processes that appear as flawed as the ones that led us here.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2022, 03:31:25 AM by JessN16 »

psycaz

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Re: USBC and Storm
« Reply #75 on: April 27, 2022, 08:04:47 AM »
Please stop with the stupid comparisons of the USBC to the FDA.

You really think when the FDA tells General Mills there’s a problem with one of their products they don’t tell them exactly what the issue is? Show them their results. Works with them to identify all the product that IS AND ISN’T affected?

Do they blanket ban all of Cocoa Puffs ever produced or do they work with General Mills to identify and pull the specifically affected product?

You think they’d make General Mills pull all Puffs products and stop selling them if the nutritional label has a percentage listed that was off by 0.2%?

Read the thread again here and most everywhere else.

The issues in regard to the USBC are about the severe lack of transparency. To their own members and Storm. Lack of documentation regarding their finding. Forget their summations, give the actual datasets.

Their own pettiness. See their threatening to perma-ban all 6 balls because Storm did what was asked of Storm, but they, the USBC, were too stupid to account for product already sold by Storm. Product they themselves say makes ZERO difference in the hands of most bowlers. In most league settings. Balls they themselves did not fully ban, only excluded from the national tournaments. They are demanding that all product be pulled back from sources not controlled by Storm.

Why do that on product you say isn’t banned and the issue doesn’t make any difference in how it will be used.

That’s not Ben getting back into the timing of the whole fiasco.

Defend the USBC all you want. You’re not going to convince many folks they are blameless.

Stupid analogies to the FDA, just stop.