BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: CoachHines on February 21, 2014, 07:51:11 AM
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Are these worth getting? They're reasonably priced, the travel would be the biggest expense except for perhaps the gold, but how high of quality are they? I'm not concerned about the cost, but I also don't want to 'blow' a couple thousand dollars, persay.
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Very very few become better coaches due to a piece of paper or any amount of money
You either understand the basic fundamentals of the game and are able to relate that to individuals or you take lessons
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That's essentially what I was getting at. I don't want to exchange money for a certificate to impress people into choosing me to coach them. I simply want to know what I'm doing, and I feel I do, but I wanted to know if the program or certs held any significant value besides being a feather in the cap, so to speak. I've seen several bronze level coaches walking around like a banty rooster, but few seem to know what they're doing.
Very very few become better coaches due to a piece of paper or any amount of money
You either understand the basic fundamentals of the game and are able to relate that to individuals or you take lessons
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A majority of bronze level coaches should be taking lessons not giving them
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I haven't attended any of the classes but have read through a Bronze manual and believe sitting through a 2 1/2 day conference about such material would be around the bottom on my list of things to do.
However, becoming certified has become the "it" thing to do and if you are going to coach HS or anything like that you should probably go through the program.
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I don't know how far you want to take it, but Bronze is a good level (especially for youth and high school) Silver level is getting into more college level. Some don't think it is worth it, but having that certification means you are in the clear. USBC has certified you to coach youth. Also means you went through the neccessary background checks.
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Having a certification means you passed the test. Some coaches are good, but don't assume that because one has a "certification" that they have any idea of how to recognize ball motion, body mechanics, and what affect they have on any given bowler.
A few years back the author of an article on the subject said his friend passed the bronze certification test without even being a bowler... Some people can pass tests, while others have APPLIED knowledge of years of experience.
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A majority of bronze level coaches should be taking lessons not giving them
Curious what is your issue? What are these Bronze Level Coaches doing wrong?
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It's not what they do, it's what they don't know.
Not just Bronze level's, but the majority of Silver level's also.
It's like taking your drivers test. Just because you can pass the test and get your license doesn't make you a good driver.
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I was debating about this myself, think I've actually asked the question before too. I don't necessarily know how much it would be worth to the person actually getting the certifications, but how much is it worth to potential customers? If you take someone who knows what they're doing but isn't certified, or take someone who really doesn't know all that much but has a Silver level cert, who would the average person go with? Yes we all know how to tell if someone knows what they're doing or not, but is it one of those necessary evils? Or what "proof" of competence is a bowler supposed to consider when choosing a coach?
For example, when my boss and I are both in the shop, people will come in and automatically start talking about balls with me, because I have several big scores and a big average and he doesn't. But at the same time, he gets the majority of the coaching requests because he's Bronze certified and I'm not. Realistically, my boss has taught me everything I know (though he isn't responsible for my crazy conclusions at the end of my abstract rabbit trails), so either one of us are perfectly capable of doing it all, but our resumes are different, and that attracts different people with different questions.
So how do you reach the largest audience possible if you don't have a certain amount of "feathers in your cap?" If the only thing that stands between me having a Bronze cert is paying for and attending the class, the frequent question is, "Well then why don't you do it?" Because the only difference between having it and not having it is a few hundred dollars and a couple day trip . . which isn't worth it to me personally, but is it worth it to me in the eyes of potential customers?
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Refer to what notclay said in the post before you. Somebody can walk off the street and pass the Bronze level certification if they pay attention in class, but that doesn't mean they really know what they're doing.
And what itsallaboutme said after, just because you can pass a driving test doesn't mean you don't know how to drive a car.
A majority of bronze level coaches should be taking lessons not giving them
Curious what is your issue? What are these Bronze Level Coaches doing wrong?
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Refer to what notclay said in the post before you. Somebody can walk off the street and pass the Bronze level certification if they pay attention in class, but that doesn't mean they really know what they're doing.
And what itsallaboutme said after, just because you can pass a driving test doesn't mean you don't know how to drive a car.
A majority of bronze level coaches should be taking lessons not giving them
Curious what is your issue? What are these Bronze Level Coaches doing wrong?
I was looking for specifics.
I can state the opposite. There are some very gifted bowlers out there that have no business in coaching. Just because you can bowl 10 plus 300 games doesn't automatically make you a great coach.
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Nobody said anything about somebody being a good bowler and that meaning they are a good coach.
The problem I have seen is some that pass the certifications and believe they are experts instead of realizing that it is a step in their educational process.
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It has to do with having a true comprehension of the basic fundamentals of the game of bowling as well as how to apply them...too many times all that is being created is a 'one-way only-way' cookie cutter mentality...
There is a huge difference, as stated previously, in passing a test and knowing true application of knowledge
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Also, all good coaches are not necessarily great bowlers themselves. Their knowledge and eyes can see what needs improvement with someone they are coaching. That doesn't always translate to coaching themselves.
One last point.
It is goes to the college degree argument.
You are the hiring manager for a company.
On paper, 2 candidates look identical. Except 1 has a degree.
More often than not, the degree person gets the position, even though then non-degree person may actually know more. They just do not have that sheet of paper.
At what point does experience overcome the lack of a degree?
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Well there aren't really specific things that "all" bronze level coaches are doing wrong. Some bronze guys, like my boss, are guys that could easily and justifiably be gold level guys, and other bronze level guys don't really have much of a clue. There's no universally specific things to identify that bronze level coaches are doing wrong . .
Refer to what notclay said in the post before you. Somebody can walk off the street and pass the Bronze level certification if they pay attention in class, but that doesn't mean they really know what they're doing.
And what itsallaboutme said after, just because you can pass a driving test doesn't mean you don't know how to drive a car.
A majority of bronze level coaches should be taking lessons not giving them
Curious what is your issue? What are these Bronze Level Coaches doing wrong?
I was looking for specifics.
I can state the opposite. There are some very gifted bowlers out there that have no business in coaching. Just because you can bowl 10 plus 300 games doesn't automatically make you a great coach.
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This is the point I was trying to make in my own debate about whether or not to get them. Like Rico said here, and also makes a point in Head Games, because people are different, you can't take a cookie cutter approach. Some people learn things differently, some have different skills or abilities. If you understand the concepts and principles of bowling in general, you can better coach each individual. If you get drawn into the idea that you have to teach something a certain way and a person has to learn something a certain way, yeah some people may get it, but many others may not.
I'm sure there's some applicable information in the USBC certs, but if you look at it, you have extreme basics with Bronze, slightly advanced things in Silver, and the only thing between you and getting Gold is a review of what you've learned. Most people getting these certifications wouldn't be getting them to learn, I imagine, they'd be getting them to beef up their resume. Like it or not, resumes matter to the average bowler or average customer. Again, whether or not it means something to a professional is one thing, but sometimes you have to have those feathers.
To answer the OP though, it really matters what the intent is I think. If you already feel you're competent at coaching, and aren't in it for the money, I doubt you need it. To coaches seeking to draw people to coach, a Gold level certification is a big plus on the resume, and whether it means they know what they're doing or not, or if they coach exactly the same as they did before they got it, people will automatically give them more credibility than someone who may be a much better coach. Sometimes you need those things to get your foot in the door.
Also, all good coaches are not necessarily great bowlers themselves. Their knowledge and eyes can see what needs improvement with someone they are coaching. That doesn't always translate to coaching themselves.
One last point.
It is goes to the college degree argument.
You are the hiring manager for a company.
On paper, 2 candidates look identical. Except 1 has a degree.
More often than not, the degree person gets the position, even though then non-degree person may actually know more. They just do not have that sheet of paper.
At what point does experience overcome the lack of a degree?
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The gold should be the elite (not the original 17 that were appointed btw) and should be based on knowledge and not the ability to pass 3 tests (the final at the disgression of 3 existing gold coaches) and has the cash to do it...
No piece of paper will make me more knowledgeable or more marketable...
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True, but your resume is already a mile long . . if you were to add Gold level USBC coach to it, I wouldn't bat an eye, and I don't think anyone else would either, it would be more like, "well of course." That makes it interesting though too. By the time anyone is able to get a Gold certification, they should have a good enough resume that they wouldn't need that feather in the cap to draw people in the first place.
The gold should be the elite (not the original 17 that were appointed btw) and should be based on knowledge and not the ability to pass 3 tests (the final at the disgression of 3 existing gold coaches) and has the cash to do it...
No piece of paper will make me more knowledgeable or more marketable...
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They grandfathered a handful (17) and then turn their noses up at other much more qualified individuals not in regards to me
Too many politics in the system as usual or as I like to say 'ones wanting to justify their existences in the universe'
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Ah . . sounds about right.
They grandfathered a handful (17) and then turn their noses up at other much more qualified individuals not in regards to me
Too many politics in the system as usual or as I like to say 'ones wanting to justify their existences in the universe'
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In golf, the top coaches are well known for what they know...not who they know
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Degrees or certifications do not make you any smarter or more knowledgeable than someone who doesn't have them. We all know that. But it is a measuring stick that people and companies use. They know with that certificate or degree you were exposed to a certain level of information and were able to demonstrate, in some form, the ability to remember or apply it (test, essays, reports, etc..) That doesn't necessary mean you're an expert.
They are worth getting if it helps you advance in an area you are interested in, REGARDLESS if it is simply a feather in your cap. People & companies like feathers. Besides you may learn something you didn't already know.
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Also, all good coaches are not necessarily great bowlers themselves. Their knowledge and eyes can see what needs improvement with someone they are coaching. That doesn't always translate to coaching themselves.
I agree.
This is my point. Give these people some credit for taking the course. I can imagine most took these courses for the same reason I did. You know how bowl but have no clue how teach it. These certification classes help. Not all of us are able to have someone who is experience and knowledgable in bowling. Just realize that these people are trying help the sport and not ruin it. They are not doing it for money and sure not doing it for the prestige.
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Please understand my thought is that someone that would a top level instructor should be based upon knowledge they have that others don't as well as not being appointed/annointed or paid for...
I can teach anyone or attempt to teach what I know, that doesn't mean they will ever see ball motion, the land or the game as I do...that should separate me from the average no?
And I'm not trying to sound condescending but I have seen what 'certified' coaches perceive as instruction and it's not right
I'm not certified I'm certifiable
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If you have the skills and abilities to coach than just make sure you have RVP and background screening done.
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I think we have strayed from the original question asked.
Would the classes be good for someone interested in coaching bowling?
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And I'm not trying to sound condescending but I have seen what 'certified' coaches perceive as instruction and it's not right
Obviously you think the USBC is getting it wrong. Their coaching program does not do anything for the sport bowling. It's just a big waist of time.
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The classes are a step in the educational process and the most recognized instructional certification within our industry.
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If you interested in teaching bowling, I would take the class for 2 simple reasons.
1) Most of your casual students will pay attention to you if you are "certified" vs. Not.
2) You may learn something in the class to aid in your teaching.
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I think we have strayed from the original question asked.
Would the classes be good for someone interested in coaching bowling?
In my opinion. Yes! This is today's society. We have certifications for everything (coaching, jobs). By taking the class I think it can only help. Even if you know more than the class is offering. $300 is going to set you back for Bronze (is it worth it? You have to make the call).
I have taken my daughter to Bronze level coach (1 1/2 hour drive away) and the only reason I found him was on the USBC Coaching website. It directed to me to his site and on his site he advertised the things he would do during a coaching session. Looked impressive to me, so I took a chance. I didn't regret it. It was well worth the drive and money for the session.
If you live in a area that is big into bowling and your reputation is established, then you don't need it.
If you plan on working with youth and its USBC league, you are required to sign up for RVP and get background screening done.
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Yes, but did he learn what he taught from the class or was he already a good coach that simply obtained the certification?
I think we have strayed from the original question asked.
Would the classes be good for someone interested in coaching bowling?
In my opinion. Yes! This is today's society. We have certifications for everything (coaching, jobs). By taking the class I think it can only help. Even if you know more than the class is offering. $300 is going to set you back for Bronze (is it worth it? You have to make the call).
I have taken my daughter to Bronze level coach (1 1/2 hour drive away) and the only reason I found him was on the USBC Coaching website. It directed to me to his site and on his site he advertised the things he would do during a coaching session. Looked impressive to me, so I took a chance. I didn't regret it. It was well worth the drive and money for the session.
If you live in a area that is big into bowling and your reputation is established, then you don't need it.
If you plan on working with youth and its USBC league, you are required to sign up for RVP and get background screening done.
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Or let me put it this way. My boss has the Bronze, didn't learn a thing from the class he didn't already know, just a resume deal. He's an excellent coach, could easily obtain Gold were he so inclined. There's another guy in town, he also has a Bronze cert, I wouldn't send a 5 year old to him, guy has zero clue what he's doing. I would also think that the majority of the people taking these classes are already "established" coaches that simply want "proof" of their ability, not people who haven't coached before and are trying to get into it. The established people will most likely already have means, methods, and preconceived or predeveloped ideas, will largely ignore anything that they don't agree with, while just doing what they have to do to pass the tests, and then go back to how they were already coaching, just as a newly anointed USBC coach.
I think we have strayed from the original question asked.
Would the classes be good for someone interested in coaching bowling?
In my opinion. Yes! This is today's society. We have certifications for everything (coaching, jobs). By taking the class I think it can only help. Even if you know more than the class is offering. $300 is going to set you back for Bronze (is it worth it? You have to make the call).
I have taken my daughter to Bronze level coach (1 1/2 hour drive away) and the only reason I found him was on the USBC Coaching website. It directed to me to his site and on his site he advertised the things he would do during a coaching session. Looked impressive to me, so I took a chance. I didn't regret it. It was well worth the drive and money for the session.
If you live in a area that is big into bowling and your reputation is established, then you don't need it.
If you plan on working with youth and its USBC league, you are required to sign up for RVP and get background screening done.
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No one can easily obtain gold, too much politics involved.
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I would also think that the majority of the people taking these classes are already "established" coaches that simply want "proof" of their ability, not people who haven't coached before and are trying to get into it.
Explain to me how someone becomes an established coach?
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This topic is really interesting to me based off of what I posted about coaching myself. I have been asked to help coach, I advised them right away I was not a certified coach, and they said they didn't care. Now I have also been told that in order to be an "official coach" working with the kids you have to pass the background check that is part of the certification process. So I will be paying close attention to this topic to see what you all say.
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Just by becoming involved. You just become involved in one way or another, find the right people, listen to them, and take the opportunities as they arise.
I would also think that the majority of the people taking these classes are already "established" coaches that simply want "proof" of their ability, not people who haven't coached before and are trying to get into it.
Explain to me how someone becomes an established coach?
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ust by becoming involved. You just become involved in one way or another, find the right people, listen to them, and take the opportunities as they arise.
Its great to have an apprenticeship program, however not all bowling communities have "the right people". What does one do then?
You see that is the situation in my area. There are no coaches.
I wanted to help my kids, so I went to a USA Bowling Clinic and took the Level 1 Certification to get a starting point. I know how to bowl. I know what works for me, but I also realize that what works for me is not going to work for my kids. I have four children and all them bowl differently. I know the fundamentals, and I am learning, and I am wanting to learn more. I also know when I am out of my range (That's why I went looking for a Bronze Level coach with experience to help my oldest daughter).
Now I help out the youth in my local center. Did I need the level 1 certification? Yes. The only coaches in the the youth league were parents. They try but the words I usually hear from parents is "Don't do this!" and "Don't do that!". When teaching someone how to bowl, you know that type of style doesn't work.
I would like to get Bronze Certification. I think there is somethings in that class that could help me (Reviewed the material on line). I am not doing this to parade around so I can call myself a coach, but I see no problem someone referring to me as a coach. I am putting time and effort into it.
If you have the skills and abilities to coach kids successfully then don't take the courses. USBC does not require to take their courses, all you need is the background check done (RVP - Registered Volunteer Program).
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I have the silver certification. I believe the certification process is worth it. The certification shows your commitment to the sport. It also now includes a continuing education requirement.
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Do you feel the certification is worth something because it shows commitment to the sport or because you learned something in the process of obtaining the certification?
How knowledgeable where you about coaching before you when through the classes?
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I don't believe I need to spend a few thousand dollars to display my commitment to the sport. My intent or desire is to learn something, and if I'm not going to learn something, or at least learn much, I'll put the money and time to better use.
I have the silver certification. I believe the certification process is worth it. The certification shows your commitment to the sport. It also now includes a continuing education requirement.
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By getting a certificate proves your commitment to the sport? I suppose since I am not an active bowler, work in a center, on a board that I am not showing commitment to the sport? Even though I am trying to learn as much as I can by reading stuff here and on the USBC Discussion forum on Facebook (well until I got banned from it) to help my kids or others means nothing? I know people who have certificates that I would not want teaching anyone I know. While I know others without it that are far better coaches who do not have a certificate.
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I did not mean to imply people who do not have a certification do not have committment to the sport. I believe the classes enhanced my knowledge of bowling, balls, lane play, relating to students and video analysis. I also understand the theory of various items better.
I know of silver coaches I would not recommend. I know of individuals that are not certified that I would recommend.
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Just because someone has a certificate in any occupation, does that make him or her better then someone who doesn't? No.
It's all about the person who has that certification and how they use it.
I have seen pro-shop's with many certificates hanging in their shops that would have a hard time finding the pin on a ball. Does that paper make them better?
Again, the person that belongs to that paper.
Coach's have to start somewhere and getting the paperwork is a start.
Many programs require it for you to participate in their program. (Varsity programs, many Saturday programs , etc.)
Thanks
Bob
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CPA I understand, I was not trying to take it out on you, I know it came across that way and I am sorry. It does help to be involved in more levels of coaching I understand that. I am at the cross roads of if I should or shouldn't. I think I should but don't know if it is worth it to get certified.