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Author Topic: USBC discipline for sandbagging  (Read 17284 times)

Dogtown

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USBC discipline for sandbagging
« on: September 13, 2013, 10:12:17 AM »
Has anyone seen USBC discipline someone (or team) for sandbagging.

We have a team on our men's league that is intentionally throwing off.  Guys who average 200+ shooting less than 100 multiple games.  Throwing plastic balls all game.  Picking off 10 and 7 pins ON THE FIRST BALL.

Our whole league was up in arms last night because it has gotten so obviously.  What do you do?  What does USBC need to show proof?  This is my first year on the league.  Apparently this team has won the league before by sandbagging the first half, then showing up the second half.

 

scotts33

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Re: USBC discipline for sandbagging
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2013, 08:04:58 PM »
One has to wonder how much sandbagging and winning the league with a team of sandbaggers is worth?  It can't be a heck of a lot of money?  Now if a sandbagger goes into a large tourney individually or as a team and falsifies his/her average then I can see it being worth the effort but not for a hdcp average bowling in a league.  I am not speaking of high dollar leagues but in my experience most high dollar leagues are scratch.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2013, 08:08:34 PM by scotts33 »
Scott

blesseddad

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Re: USBC discipline for sandbagging
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2013, 08:53:44 PM »
One has to wonder how much sandbagging and winning the league with a team of sandbaggers is worth?  It can't be a heck of a lot of money?  Now if a sandbagger goes into a large tourney individually or as a team and falsifies his/her average then I can see it being worth the effort but not for a hdcp average bowling in a league.  I am not speaking of high dollar leagues but in my experience most high dollar leagues are scratch.

Cheating is cheating, is it not?

scotts33

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Re: USBC discipline for sandbagging
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2013, 09:07:39 PM »
One has to wonder how much sandbagging and winning the league with a team of sandbaggers is worth?  It can't be a heck of a lot of money?  Now if a sandbagger goes into a large tourney individually or as a team and falsifies his/her average then I can see it being worth the effort but not for a hdcp average bowling in a league.  I am not speaking of high dollar leagues but in my experience most high dollar leagues are scratch.

Cheating is cheating, is it not?

Yep but what reason would anyone have if not for some type of remuneration?  It surely would not be to win a hdcp league? 
Scott

BowlinStr8t

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Re: USBC discipline for sandbagging
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2013, 10:04:24 PM »
Set up your prize fund that pays each half where you finish--not just overall.  Also, don't have your prize fund automatically make both half winners 1st or 2nd.  If a team loses the roll-off they get money where they finish overall. 
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kidlost2000

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Re: USBC discipline for sandbagging
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2013, 10:53:05 PM »
The rules go to overall games after the 1st half and 2nd half teams bowl each other.

So if the team in question lost the roll off they would fall to near the bottom. When you have guys averaging 20+ pin below the previous book averages on any other league it isn't a lock to win the roll off but it is a close to a lock as you can get.


The example of the sandbagging would be a bowler shooting 240-250 for game 1 then sub 100 the following 2 games. You can see how their average wouldn't be hard to shoot. This is the kind of sandbagging that is going on.
…… you can't  add a physics term to a bowling term and expect it to mean something.

ccrider

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Re: USBC discipline for sandbagging
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2013, 11:40:59 PM »
Around here ther is decent money in the handicap leagues.  500 per team per quarter plus 7000 in one house to the winning team and 10000 in the other. 2000 per man of you win is not exactly chump change. Even in the 7000 dollar league each man gets 1400. 

There is definitely sandbagging going on. Not much that you can do about it unless it is flagrant like you describe. I would file a written complaint with the league and force them to address it.  If they say it's ok then it's not cheating.  You have to then decide for yourself whether to play by those established rules to win or to bowl your best each time out.

Walking E

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Re: USBC discipline for sandbagging
« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2013, 01:42:48 AM »
I don't know about USBC punishments, but our league decided to let the team captains challenge averages for incoming members. This came into play this week when a guy with a 183 book average (on a sport shot) was re-rated as a 220 bowler by the league captains. The reasoning here is that there are bowlers who bowl up to (but not more than) 20 games in a number of leagues and average 220+, but only book in one league where they average in the 180s or 190s. I know of two such bowlers, and one of them was the guy that the league re-rated. They evaluated a composite of his other averages (which was 220+) and went with 220. The bowler himself didn't care much and we only use book averages for three weeks anyway, but I think it's a good rule that we instituted this season.

scotts33

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Re: USBC discipline for sandbagging
« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2013, 02:45:26 AM »
Quote
Around here ther is decent money in the handicap leagues.  500 per team per quarter plus 7000 in one house to the winning team and 10000 in the other. 2000 per man of you win is not exactly chump change. Even in the 7000 dollar league each man gets 1400.

There is definitely sandbagging going on. Not much that you can do about it unless it is flagrant like you describe. I would file a written complaint with the league and force them to address it.  If they say it's ok then it's not cheating.  You have to then decide for yourself whether to play by those established rules to win or to bowl your best each time out.

This is what I was asking when there is a large amount of $$$ to be made then yes that is where the issue of sandbagging will exist...leagues and tourney's.

In my neck of the woods hdcp leagues are just that recreational hdcp leagues for once a week bowlers.  In fact this year I suggested to one 5 man hdcp recreational league 30 weeks that we drop to just above the lineage enough to pay sec. treas fee ($275/yr) and ancillary fees don't build a prize fund and bowl for a trophy or plaque.  Keep it fun, keep it cheap and you will keep sandbaggers out of your leagues there is no remuneration so no point in throwing off.   

Think about it in this example say you pay $16/night for 30 weeks.  Lineage is say $13 sec treas makes .18 cents a bowler per night and say another .07 cents a night per bowler for ancillary (fun nights, etc) that makes .25 cents per night per bowler  so you are bowling for $2.75/night x 30 = $82.50.  I say drop the $82.50 because in a 10 team league thats about what you are going to get back if the league isn't top loaded and paid thru out the league evenly....ie. point money, round winners, singles, doubles and a league could pay in a bit more for the dbles/singles portion if you want to keep that.  My point is your are putting in this $80+ bucks and then basically getting the same money back distributed as a prize fund.  I say get rid of that and you are keeping the $$$ in your pocket upfront.   It's more like paying into the IRS thru payroll deductions and letting them keep your money until tax time rolls around so you can get a larger refund. 

If you want high dollar payouts make it scratch and you don't have to worry about it.  I am unsure why bowlers would want to bowl large money hdcp leagues and can see why sandbagging exists in these situations.  Take the temptation away and no issues or problems.

Just some thoughts.

« Last Edit: September 14, 2013, 02:47:12 AM by scotts33 »
Scott

dwandel

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Re: USBC discipline for sandbagging
« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2013, 06:36:33 AM »
Starting last year USBC rules allow the board of directors for a league to re rate any bowler with 2/3 vote

glssmn2001

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Re: USBC discipline for sandbagging
« Reply #25 on: September 14, 2013, 11:45:18 AM »
The USBC does nothing. I personally sent a request to the USBC regarding a bowler who average between 215-230 in all leagues with less than 21 games and averages 175 in the one league with more than 21. There reply was that those average do not matter due to lack of game and totally dismissed this as a case of sandbagging. Sad to see that this guys has been doing this for at least 5 years straight and it shows up under his ID number but the powers that be do nothing. Nice eye opener for me, I now shoot 180 in league...hahahaha....

Metal_rules

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Re: USBC discipline for sandbagging
« Reply #26 on: September 14, 2013, 06:25:53 PM »
If you sandbag you are a *UCKING *SSHOLE -- I CANT STAND YOU!!!  I try my best each and every time I step on the approach. The sandbaggers have ruined league bowling. I was on a summer league where the 1st place team threw off so there buddies could win 2ND on the last position nite, so we ended up in 3rd. If you can't play fair -- get the hell out of bowling!!!
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charlest

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Re: USBC discipline for sandbagging
« Reply #27 on: September 14, 2013, 06:31:03 PM »
Has anyone seen USBC discipline someone (or team) for sandbagging.


Because ABC's AND USBC's record for handling sandbaggers is non-existent, as far as I know and as far as I have seen, people will continue to do as you describe with ZERO fear of retribution. I believe this is at least one situation where both the old and the new organization has fallen on its read end, very badly. I understand it's hard to prove, but this is not a court of law. I also believe it's one more aspect of the sport of bowling where integrity and ethical behavior has been allowed to lapse.
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dwandel

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Re: USBC discipline for sandbagging
« Reply #28 on: September 14, 2013, 06:56:02 PM »
  Every one seems to look to the USBC to do something about the sandbaggers. Your local association does have the power and authority to address this issue if they choose.
  The Capitol Association here in the MD/Dc area formed  a rerate committee a few years ago to address the local baggers.
  The suspected baggers were all sent notices of the average rerate and given an opportunity to contest the rerate. The majority on the list had their averages adjusted up. Some of the bowlers were given a lifetime rerated averages.
  There are rules in place where sandbagging can be addressed in local leagues and associations. For some reason it rarely happens. I assume that is because it is easier to complain and blame the USBC than to have the backbone to address the baggers locally and in person.

kidlost2000

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Re: USBC discipline for sandbagging
« Reply #29 on: September 14, 2013, 08:23:32 PM »
Most assume that is what the USBC is for. If the USBC doesn't make that suggestion and simply says we can't do anything most would assume that's all that can be done.
…… you can't  add a physics term to a bowling term and expect it to mean something.

charlest

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Re: USBC discipline for sandbagging
« Reply #30 on: September 14, 2013, 09:10:05 PM »
  Every one seems to look to the USBC to do something about the sandbaggers. Your local association does have the power and authority to address this issue if they choose.
  The Capitol Association here in the MD/Dc area formed  a rerate committee a few years ago to address the local baggers.
  The suspected baggers were all sent notices of the average rerate and given an opportunity to contest the rerate. The majority on the list had their averages adjusted up. Some of the bowlers were given a lifetime rerated averages.
  There are rules in place where sandbagging can be addressed in local leagues and associations. For some reason it rarely happens. I assume that is because it is easier to complain and blame the USBC than to have the backbone to address the baggers locally and in person.

In the 4 or 5 associations (local counties) of which I have been a member, each time a sandbagging incident came to their attention, they refused to do anything except pass it back up the ladder to the National organization, which, of course, in turn, did nothing, saying that sandbagging wasn't "proved". From the words they used in denying the allegation, the only "proof" they seemed to accept was either the sandbagger's word that they were sandbagging or someone reading their minds to the same effect. I wonder where we supposed to get a mind reader???
"None are so blind as those who will not see."