Quote from: tommygn on April 21, 2017, 12:01:05 PM

Quote from: avabob on April 21, 2017, 11:59:36 AM

Here is how I feel about scoring.  Quite a few guys can out score me on a house shot.  I can outscore a lot of them on some sport patterns.  Neither fact proves anything.  I am probably one of the more versatile bowlers in our area.  However on any pattern, including a house shit there is often somebody who can beat me. Game has always been that way and I know if no way to change it

Easy, tiered and rated bowling centers.

That doesn't affect any part of his statement.  It's like you had a response ready to go before he even said anything.

I actually read the entire post, not part of it. It was a response to his last line.




The main reason why sport bowling didn't work, is because the USBC went too far and too extreme with the guide lines of what sport bowling should be. So much so, that people think patterns like "white" pattern are sport patterns, and they simple aren't. They are mildly blended patterns that come in at about a 6:1 ratio and, usually a higher scoring pattern for players with reasonable shot making ability. It takes away the pulled shot, go wash-out, miss outside of target, go face ridiculousness of many of today's over walled house conditions. What it does offer, is a slight bit of miss room from shots that are mildly errant. What happened with the original Sport shots, was that it scared many bowlers off from ever attempting to bowl on anything but a "house pattern" because it was too extreme.

Very difficult to apply golf type course ratings or slopes to bowling.  Part if the reason is obvious because lane patterns can be changed at the touch of a button and that is the only criteria that can be used. 

Also I would not call sport bowling a failure.  The fact that everyone at any level can bowl for money obscures the fact that top tier bowlers have largely bought in to playing on flatter patterns. I
 This was not the case many years ago when the old ABC was promulgating unrealistic lane conditioning restrictions considering the equipment available at the time.

Tommy, your opinion is the same one I had 5 years ago.  I was the one yelling and screaming and throwing fits here, itsallaboutme and northface will remember, I had more than one argument with them over this exact topic.  My perspective has changed.  I used to get upset about scoring pace and losing to someone that "isn't any good" because of their handicap.  I spent all my time being upset about the way that bowling is.  But you know what I noticed?  All the people that didn't have manufacturer shirts with patches on them and drag 8 balls into league and didn't have to have 2 lane courtesy and ordered 3 pitchers of beer at a time were having a whole ton of fun and I never was.  I was the guy ruining the night for people like this because I was "good" and bowling is too easy and somebody lane jumped me and as soon as I dropped the attitude and focused on helping people enjoy bowling the way they wanted to, I found out I started enjoying it more too.  A walled up shot in a handicap league that pays the league winner $150 a man isn't the place to get excited about anything.  The better bowler will still win the majority of the time, and at one time we were all that 160 average bowler getting 50 sticks a game excited when we finally made that big average jump and got the advantage of the handicap until our averages caught up with us, and if you piss that guy off and drive him away because he isn't any good and is shooting big numbers just flinging it all over the place, he won't ever turn into something more. 

NOBODY WANTS TOUGHER LEAGUE SHOTS.  It's a fact of life.  Doesn't matter how it "should be."  Tournaments are for the die hards who want to go beat their brains out.  Otherwise, like I said on the video I made, the SCRATCH bowler is the one who has all the incentive in the world to get better.  If handicap is 90% of 220 and I average 240, boy all I have to do is shoot my average and everyone else has to do the work.  And if they're scoring flinging it all over the place, well then I have no excuse not to do well because that means the pattern is WIDE open.  Your attitudes and opinion will not help bowling, it will hurt it, as mine did.  I'm not the toolbag behind the counter in the pro shop anymore telling people what they should want and how they should throw the ball and that the way they want the ball the fit is wrong and stupid.  THE ABSOLUTE BIGGEST POINT IS THAT NOT EVERYONE WANTS TO BE A PRO.  Some people want to just fling the ball out there and watch it hook, that's how they have fun.  For the die hards, there are scratch tournaments, sport tournaments, PBA regionals, or just the tour period.  Don't get in the middle of the casual bowlers' fun and tell them they're doing it wrong. 

Tommy, your opinion is the same one I had 5 years ago.  I was the one yelling and screaming and throwing fits here, itsallaboutme and northface will remember, I had more than one argument with them over this exact topic.  My perspective has changed.  I used to get upset about scoring pace and losing to someone that "isn't any good" because of their handicap.  I spent all my time being upset about the way that bowling is.  But you know what I noticed?  All the people that didn't have manufacturer shirts with patches on them and drag 8 balls into league and didn't have to have 2 lane courtesy and ordered 3 pitchers of beer at a time were having a whole ton of fun and I never was.  I was the guy ruining the night for people like this because I was "good" and bowling is too easy and somebody lane jumped me and as soon as I dropped the attitude and focused on helping people enjoy bowling the way they wanted to, I found out I started enjoying it more too.  A walled up shot in a handicap league that pays the league winner $150 a man isn't the place to get excited about anything.  The better bowler will still win the majority of the time, and at one time we were all that 160 average bowler getting 50 sticks a game excited when we finally made that big average jump and got the advantage of the handicap until our averages caught up with us, and if you piss that guy off and drive him away because he isn't any good and is shooting big numbers just flinging it all over the place, he won't ever turn into something more. 

NOBODY WANTS TOUGHER LEAGUE SHOTS.  It's a fact of life.  Doesn't matter how it "should be."  Tournaments are for the die hards who want to go beat their brains out.  Otherwise, like I said on the video I made, the SCRATCH bowler is the one who has all the incentive in the world to get better.  If handicap is 90% of 220 and I average 240, boy all I have to do is shoot my average and everyone else has to do the work.  And if they're scoring flinging it all over the place, well then I have no excuse not to do well because that means the pattern is WIDE open.  Your attitudes and opinion will not help bowling, it will hurt it, as mine did.  I'm not the toolbag behind the counter in the pro shop anymore telling people what they should want and how they should throw the ball and that the way they want the ball the fit is wrong and stupid.  THE ABSOLUTE BIGGEST POINT IS THAT NOT EVERYONE WANTS TO BE A PRO.  Some people want to just fling the ball out there and watch it hook, that's how they have fun.  For the die hards, there are scratch tournaments, sport tournaments, PBA regionals, or just the tour period.  Don't get in the middle of the casual bowlers' fun and tell them they're doing it wrong. 

exactly how i feel

I didn't get the survey, what do you have to do to get the survey emailed?

Quote from: Aloarjr810 on April 21, 2017, 01:55:28 PM

A Golf Slope rating for bowling, that's been brought up and discussed many times before in regards to bowling over the years.

But has never gone anywhere, A lot felt that the ratings would wind up being based mostly on the Inspector/Raters opinion and would be too subjective and not consistent around the country.

With the advent of Kegel's LaneMap technology part of that could be addressed, But to implement this idea would require money and let's face it bowler's won't pay for it.


As for a Tier system that would most likely turn into a mess that everyone would complain about.

It would be like what happened to scratch and handicap leagues. The money dried up in the scratch leagues prizfunds, so they all ran over to handicap leagues. Then all the complaining about handicap, conditions, sandbaggers etc. started.

One tier would wind up being where all the money was (most likely the lowest tier the one where all the ordinary lower ave, bowlers are, the ones that feed the prizefunds) and everyone would be trying to be in or stay in it.

Well said. Sharks rarely want to swim with other sharks. They would much rather feast on minnows all the while diminishing and demeaning them every step of the way.

#scratchbowling

#lessthan10%ofleaguebowlersarescratch  People trying to be all competitive and pissy in a handicap league that might pay you back $200 at the end of the year IF you sweep the league confuse me.  Go bowl something else.  And if there IS nothing else to bowl, I've got a few theories on why that is . .

Quote from: Impending Doom on April 22, 2017, 02:52:50 PM

Quote from: northface28 on April 21, 2017, 08:54:35 PM

Quote from: Aloarjr810 on April 21, 2017, 01:55:28 PM

A Golf Slope rating for bowling, that's been brought up and discussed many times before in regards to bowling over the years.

But has never gone anywhere, A lot felt that the ratings would wind up being based mostly on the Inspector/Raters opinion and would be too subjective and not consistent around the country.

With the advent of Kegel's LaneMap technology part of that could be addressed, But to implement this idea would require money and let's face it bowler's won't pay for it.


As for a Tier system that would most likely turn into a mess that everyone would complain about.

It would be like what happened to scratch and handicap leagues. The money dried up in the scratch leagues prizfunds, so they all ran over to handicap leagues. Then all the complaining about handicap, conditions, sandbaggers etc. started.

One tier would wind up being where all the money was (most likely the lowest tier the one where all the ordinary lower ave, bowlers are, the ones that feed the prizefunds) and everyone would be trying to be in or stay in it.

Well said. Sharks rarely want to swim with other sharks. They would much rather feast on minnows all the while diminishing and demeaning them every step of the way.

#scratchbowling

It's because a vast majority of people that say they want tougher conditions still want to be handed their scores. The novelty of tougher conditions wears off and they don't respect the grind.

Alrighty, so this is my takeaway from the discussion..

1) by and large, the reasons for bowling's decline in the U.S. have little if anything to do with the rise in scoring, but are the results of broader socioeconomic factors.

2) though most of we forum-lurking lane dwellers would like more of a challenge, most league bowlers would not be happy bowling on butt-clenchinly difficult patterns all the time.

3) without MAJOR fundage, enforcement of any tighter USBC regulations would be impossible, (although, perhaps this job creation could be subsidized? get a lobbyist to Washington folks!! joking of course )

4) for the smaller percentage of dedicated bowlers, there are still avenues by which you can challenge yourself. <<< now HERE is where i will disagree, i think that casual bowlers have indeed supplanted the space where by more serious bowlers could get some game-time on the lanes, mostly because, for reasons already stated, they are more profitable.

EDIT: one thing i forgot to mention, i think we can all agree that the oil conditions, got easier and so to did the equipment get much stronger. I think part of the reason oil conditions are being talked about so much is because changing the equipment standards at this point would set ball manufacturers back quite a lot, though i'm sure they would dream up some new workaround quick (maybe they already have a contingency plan?). also, a whole lot of equipment would likely become illegal, which means those guys that have a whole rack 'a balls would need to go out and buy all new equipment. on the other hand, changing the oil pattern is as easy as just putting down a new pattern, it takes a few minutes and bam, game is different. 

my creative solution to this problem (being the lack of challenging conditions to bowl on) has basically been to use a plastic ball and try to maintain my average. a few guys in my league practice with plastic very often, usually after the lanes have been blown to hell from cosmic bowling, just so they can be more accurate, and it works.

As for the state of the sport itself, i don't think tenpins will disappear altogether, but the fact is that it's not up to us, bowling just isn't that popular in this League of Legends/ Call of Duty/[insert videogame here] world of free digital entertainment. Sometimes you have to go out and create your own challenges. All we can do is remain dedicated and hope the changes in the wind bring favor our way.

whatever the USBC has cooked up for these surveys, we'll have to adapt and hope it doesn't hurt the sport.