Author Topic: USBC Petition for Jackal Recertification (Read 19721 times)

morpheus · « **on:** March 19, 2016, 02:49:11 PM »

Stumbled across this on Facebook...

https://www.change.org/p/united-states-bowling-recertify-the-jackal-and-jackal-carnage-for-usbc-play

Ken De Beasto · « **Reply #106 on:** March 22, 2016, 05:52:29 PM »

You want free drilling wowser? Dang I thought we were on same page I don't agree with motiv covering free drilling

ITZPS · « **Reply #107 on:** March 22, 2016, 05:59:12 PM »

Just like it's tough to know which Jackals are over and which are legal, but they all got banned anyway. I've also had SEVERAL people tell me "well I'm not going to nationals anyway, it doesn't matter if the weights are out of spec." Also I can't exactly regulate it, if someone says drill the holes here and I don't like weight holes, that's just what I have to do, whether it makes the ball legal or not. I can advise them, I can drill the ring finger to china, I can do whatever I can to make it as close as possible, but at the end of the day, there are lots of people that buy things that never use them in sanctioned competition. Some bowl for fun, some bowl non sanctioned leagues, in no way is it my responsibility or jurisdiction to regulate that.

Very much so not even close to the same comparison. Drag racing is a TIMED sport. A higher differential doesn't make the ball automatically better. I still agree Motiv shouldn't have pushed the line, but given what newguy said about some cores allowing drilled diff to go so much higher, they could have just told them to cease production, grandfathered the old stuff in, and there would have been no issue. I get the point that illegal is illegal, and if you let one thing slide, what else do you let slide, but when you use some common sense and understand that a company lost basically a million bucks over a thousandth of a point in differential, that's so ridiculous I can't even comprehend it. All this does is reinforce bowler ignorance and misinformation. "Oh wow, the USBC hit them that hard over such a small amount, it MUST really be that big of a deal." Sends a very wrong message.

Quote from: WOWZERS on March 22, 2016, 04:06:37 PM

ITZPS

Tough to tell a legal or illegal ball not knowing side/top/etc especially when you do not know the starting info. Further, I put my trust in pro shops and other bowlers to have done or to do the right thing, which is what the USBC did here. They found an illegal ball and outlawed it. Kudos to them.

I do agree that the problem is if they do field testing, why did they not catch it sooner...are they really that behind, that understaffed, or what exactly?

We know the Jackal is bad now.

When I was drag racing, if you have ever watched drag racing, a red light can occur because you left the line .001 too early. If you have ever watched NHRA Top Fuel or Funny Cars or Pro Stock Cars, you would know that a car leaving .001 early when they travel to the finish line at over 300 MPH, what does .001 really mean? Not much, but they left the line too early. Thus, because they left too early, regardless of what the other car did, the car leaving too early loses and the other car is the winner.

Not a direct apples to apple comparison, but similar in that .001 can mean the difference between a legal ball/illegal ball and a legal run or illegal run (because your car left the starting line too early).

Sorry that I feel the rules need followed, regardless of how arbitrary it is. The rules are there for a reason. I guess what is causing my stickler attitude toward this is my background in Risk. When we test controls, we cannot pass any threshold regardless of how small it is. In a million dollar account, if my firm calculated a yield and is a single penny off, we fail the control because we were not right on. Who is really going to miss a penny? We either gave a penny too much or a penny short, but either way, we were wrong. Well, Motiv was wrong here.

WOWZERS · « **Reply #108 on:** March 22, 2016, 06:05:50 PM »

Yeah Ken...my argument is we bought the Jackal or Carnage with the assumption the ball was USBC certified. We paid to drill that ball. Ball turned out NOT to be USBC certified. Why should we have to pay the replacement ball when we were sold a ball that did not comply to begin with.

Its ok to disagree. Just my opinion.

IT...racing is a timed sport, point is even an advantage of leaving .001 sooner than your opponent can leave the line is illegal and you are disqualified. Small advantage...but its past the set line.

The extra diff does not make the Carnage or original Jackal better, but it gives an option the other bowler(s) do not have.

I do get what you are saying...such a large penalty for such a SMALL infraction. And if we back up...if the original Jackal was out of spec, if the USBC did their job originally through Field testing, this issue would have been found a year ago (or more) and the loss for Motiv would have been far less as less runs of original Jackals would have occurred and there would not have been a Carnage released out of spec at all.

Motiv as just as much or more to complain about with the USBC and the way this went down as do the bowlers who had a ball or 2 or more taken out of his/her bag.

Ken De Beasto · « **Reply #109 on:** March 22, 2016, 06:06:49 PM »

Quote from: ITZPS on March 22, 2016, 05:59:12 PM

Just like it's tough to know which Jackals are over and which are legal, but they all got banned anyway. I've also had SEVERAL people tell me "well I'm not going to nationals anyway, it doesn't matter if the weights are out of spec." Also I can't exactly regulate it, if someone says drill the holes here and I don't like weight holes, that's just what I have to do, whether it makes the ball legal or not. I can advise them, I can drill the ring finger to china, I can do whatever I can to make it as close as possible, but at the end of the day, there are lots of people that buy things that never use them in sanctioned competition. Some bowl for fun, some bowl non sanctioned leagues, in no way is it my responsibility or jurisdiction to regulate that.

Very much so not even close to the same comparison. Drag racing is a TIMED sport. A higher differential doesn't make the ball automatically better. I still agree Motiv shouldn't have pushed the line, but given what newguy said about some cores allowing drilled diff to go so much higher, they could have just told them to cease production, grandfathered the old stuff in, and there would have been no issue. I get the point that illegal is illegal, and if you let one thing slide, what else do you let slide, but when you use some common sense and understand that a company lost basically a million bucks over a thousandth of a point in differential, that's so ridiculous I can't even comprehend it. All this does is reinforce bowler ignorance and misinformation. "Oh wow, the USBC hit them that hard over such a small amount, it MUST really be that big of a deal." Sends a very wrong message.

Quote from: WOWZERS on March 22, 2016, 04:06:37 PM
ITZPS

Tough to tell a legal or illegal ball not knowing side/top/etc especially when you do not know the starting info. Further, I put my trust in pro shops and other bowlers to have done or to do the right thing, which is what the USBC did here. They found an illegal ball and outlawed it. Kudos to them.

I do agree that the problem is if they do field testing, why did they not catch it sooner...are they really that behind, that understaffed, or what exactly?

We know the Jackal is bad now.

When I was drag racing, if you have ever watched drag racing, a red light can occur because you left the line .001 too early. If you have ever watched NHRA Top Fuel or Funny Cars or Pro Stock Cars, you would know that a car leaving .001 early when they travel to the finish line at over 300 MPH, what does .001 really mean? Not much, but they left the line too early. Thus, because they left too early, regardless of what the other car did, the car leaving too early loses and the other car is the winner.

Not a direct apples to apple comparison, but similar in that .001 can mean the difference between a legal ball/illegal ball and a legal run or illegal run (because your car left the starting line too early).

Sorry that I feel the rules need followed, regardless of how arbitrary it is. The rules are there for a reason. I guess what is causing my stickler attitude toward this is my background in Risk. When we test controls, we cannot pass any threshold regardless of how small it is. In a million dollar account, if my firm calculated a yield and is a single penny off, we fail the control because we were not right on. Who is really going to miss a penny? We either gave a penny too much or a penny short, but either way, we were wrong. Well, Motiv was wrong here.

I'm just curious what you mean grandfathered the old balls?

JustRico · « **Reply #110 on:** March 22, 2016, 06:14:33 PM »

My contention is rather simple...
This is the first time, as far as we know, that this is happened...
And as pointed out, Motiv did NOT do this intentionally and anyone that references that is extremely way off base...so, again my contention is, there is no precidence set on this situation so USBC could have went a varying of ways to deal with a penalty and I believe, in MY opinion...this was the wrong way to defend it.
Yes the balls were non-compliant and anyone that understands manufacturing knows there is ALWAYS a variance given for tolerance...I also understand Motiv did themselves no favors by already being at the limit but the infraction is so minimal...less than the thickness of a piece of paper...so with that being said....USBC could have chosen a multitude of ways to deal with and I think they showed their arrogance by choosing this route...plain & simple
When you have a national tournament being contested and innocent competitors showing up and being notified their choice of equipment is no longer legal...they get screwed...similar to bowling on a noncompliant condition...it's not the bowlers fault but they'll get screwed when their scores are turned down
USBC could of easily said-these balls are noncompliant (Jackyls) they've been legal for 1.5 years so they are grand fathered in and they need to be retooled to be compliant...
The Carnage should've been removed from the market place and have the same done to them...retooled but don't screw the competitors...anybody that truly believes they are cheating by using these are delusional
Give Motiv a fine and place them on probation...plain & simple but AGAIN they could've chosen a different road but the one they chose really only screws the bowler as usual
So I am not defending the infraction I'm condemning the penalty...again I believe the USBC and its higher ups truly could careless abt the game and only want to sit back and say 'look I'm saving the game' and as these balls are now banned I can take a polyester bowling ball with a .020 diff and dbl the diff with a layout then hit with 80 grit....

WOWZERS · « **Reply #111 on:** March 22, 2016, 06:16:11 PM »

About 10 years ago (maybe less) the diff max was much greater than the current .060 limit. Balls like the Lane 1 Super Carbide and the Immortal Solid had undrilled diffs of almost .080. USBC put in a rule that said all balls as of X date had to be produced at a limit of .060 diff, nothing more. Because the bowlers that had purchased the balls could still be using them, those balls certified and produced under the old rule were allowed to stay in bowlers bags. '

I can still purchase and use those balls because they are "grandfathered", but any new balls cannot be made.

USBC also gave the ball companies a date they had to stop producing those balls as well. So the companies cannot produce them any more, but they can still be sold and drilled and used in any USBC sanctioned competition today.

ITZPS · « **Reply #112 on:** March 22, 2016, 06:27:35 PM »

Yes, and I feel this would have been the correct way to go about it. I also have to say it's nice to have a debate without getting bitchy or pissy like has been known to happen here before, so thanks for keeping it clean, so to speak.

However, I also feel like it's inaccurate to say the Jackals offered an option other bowlers don't have. I don't think the best pros in the world find even a slight or marginal advantage with a ball at a diff of .062 as opposed to one at .056, let alone anyone else.

Case in point: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khUITPlM5-Y

Quote from: WOWZERS on March 22, 2016, 06:16:11 PM

About 10 years ago (maybe less) the diff max was much greater than the current .060 limit. Balls like the Lane 1 Super Carbide and the Immortal Solid had undrilled diffs of almost .080. USBC put in a rule that said all balls as of X date had to be produced at a limit of .060 diff, nothing more. Because the bowlers that had purchased the balls could still be using them, those balls certified and produced under the old rule were allowed to stay in bowlers bags. '

I can still purchase and use those balls because they are "grandfathered", but any new balls cannot be made.

USBC also gave the ball companies a date they had to stop producing those balls as well. So the companies cannot produce them any more, but they can still be sold and drilled and used in any USBC sanctioned competition today.

WOWZERS · « **Reply #113 on:** March 22, 2016, 08:04:48 PM »

IT...

I have said for someone like me, I will never see the difference on the lane with .0016 or .004 in extra undrilled diff.

Good luck to you and your shop. Hope you do well. Thanks for the good debates.

ITZPS · « **Reply #114 on:** March 22, 2016, 08:30:13 PM »

I can definitely agree to disagree with someone who "argues" fairly. Thanks.

Quote from: WOWZERS on March 22, 2016, 08:04:48 PM

IT...

I have said for someone like me, I will never see the difference on the lane with .0016 or .004 in extra undrilled diff.

Good luck to you and your shop. Hope you do well. Thanks for the good debates.

Good Times Good Times · « **Reply #115 on:** March 23, 2016, 08:09:12 AM »

I'll add this as well. We should never be locked into an opinion. We should always be willing to change/re-evaluate given new information.

AMF300bowler · « **Reply #116 on:** March 23, 2016, 11:38:26 AM »

>> they could have just told them to cease production, grandfathered the old stuff in, and there would have been no issue.

There would be an issue. You now set a new precedent. I send in a ball to USBC to get approved knowing the differential is .057. Once I am approved I change the core so the differential goes to .063. People buy my ball and love the hook on heavy oil. USBC comes back six months later and says we have to have to stop production. Your ball is no longer legal. However, now the USBC has to grandfather my previously made ball, too.

Every manufacturer would do this since they would not have to replace any bowling ball previously sold. Plus, maybe they never get caught and just get to keep making these bad bowling balls. I honestly believe 100% that the USBC did the correct thing here.

And yes, between my son and I we have 3 Jackals. So no, I'm not saying this from an outsiders perspective.

Jorge300 · « **Reply #117 on:** March 23, 2016, 12:41:07 PM »

Rico,
I was putting my thoughts together when AMFBowler300 posted. He said exactly what I was thinking. If you grandfather the Jackals, you open the door for every company to cheat and get away with it. Yes, they have been out for 1.5 years....but unless you can pinpoint exactly when the balls began to be manufactured out of tolerance....so that you can separate legal from illegal by serial number (if that is even possible), you have to ban them all. Yes, it sucks for Motiv, it sucks for the bowlers and it sucks for our sport. But what else can you do? If you say you can use them for a few months to give Motiv time to replace. What stops a company from making a ball with a .08, .09, .10 differential, then just allowing people to throw for a season or 2-3 months while it is replaced? How many tournaments could won, money could be won, medals could be won, that would otherwise go to other bowlers if people were using legal equipment. Yes, this amount may not make a difference (although I suggested a scenario in another thread that I might be realistic), but if you don't stop it here, you allow for further transgressions that will make a difference.

chucksta29 · « **Reply #118 on:** March 23, 2016, 02:27:01 PM »

Quote from: AMF300bowler on March 23, 2016, 11:38:26 AM

>> they could have just told them to cease production, grandfathered the old stuff in, and there would have been no issue.

There would be an issue. You now set a new precedent. I send in a ball to USBC to get approved knowing the differential is .057. Once I am approved I change the core so the differential goes to .063. People buy my ball and love the hook on heavy oil. USBC comes back six months later and says we have to have to stop production. Your ball is no longer legal. However, now the USBC has to grandfather my previously made ball, too.

Every manufacturer would do this since they would not have to replace any bowling ball previously sold. Plus, maybe they never get caught and just get to keep making these bad bowling balls. I honestly believe 100% that the USBC did the correct thing here.

And yes, between my son and I we have 3 Jackals. So no, I'm not saying this from an outsiders perspective.

This is not a good example and is not what happened with the Jackals. Motiv did not change the core after the USBC certified these two balls. What your talking about is a different situation entirely. If you submit a ball and get it approved, then change the core and begin to produce it you are not selling a ball that was approved by the USBC.

The thing I don't like about this situation is the lack of information about how all this came about. Where did the balls tested come from? How many balls were tested? Was it the USBC that collected these balls or were they sent in by someone else? A lot of this sounds fishy especially since this core has been in production for over 4 years. If you were to test lets say 20 balls, it wouldn't be hard to come across twice that many and hand pick ones to send in that would average out over the limit knowing that during the production process there is likely to be small variances that could be below or above the .06 limit.

TDC57 · « **Reply #119 on:** March 23, 2016, 03:32:57 PM »

Wowzers,

You failed to get what I meant. Nobody says you don't have the right to your own opinion. You and many others feel the same way about this and that's fine. It's just that you continue to spew the same opinion over and over on multiple threads. We all get it you want your drilling paid for and it ISN'T going to happen. Beat Motiv up over it all you want but nobody cares, except for a few. It's just time to give it a rest. As I said make your claim, get your new ball, sell it and and move on but stop polluting this site with the same drivel. That's not North Korea talking, that's just stating, we all get it. I understand your side completely but you have posted more than anyone on this and it just seems you are bent on hurting Motiv more than they have already been hurt. This did not happen on purpose and even if they did push the differential limit, the balls when first made passed the USBC testing. They didn't change the core later, just to cheat. Your tone has been less than understanding and you know as well as I do, if they had to pay for all the drilling of replacement balls, they more than likely would go out of business and any ruling by the USBC should never have that consequence to a company in the bowling business.

12XSECH · « **Reply #120 on:** March 24, 2016, 01:50:37 PM »

1/1000th is hardly cheating. Its almost not even measurable under normal conditions. The usbc are the ones who are going to pay this. I hope Motiv takes them to court because they will win.

Author Topic: USBC Petition for Jackal Recertification (Read 19721 times)

morpheus

USBC Petition for Jackal Recertification

Ken De Beasto

Re: USBC Petition for Jackal Recertification

ITZPS

Re: USBC Petition for Jackal Recertification

WOWZERS

Re: USBC Petition for Jackal Recertification

Ken De Beasto

Re: USBC Petition for Jackal Recertification

JustRico

Re: USBC Petition for Jackal Recertification

WOWZERS

Re: USBC Petition for Jackal Recertification

ITZPS

Re: USBC Petition for Jackal Recertification

WOWZERS

Re: USBC Petition for Jackal Recertification

ITZPS

Re: USBC Petition for Jackal Recertification

Good Times Good Times

Re: USBC Petition for Jackal Recertification

AMF300bowler

Re: USBC Petition for Jackal Recertification

Jorge300

Re: USBC Petition for Jackal Recertification

chucksta29

Re: USBC Petition for Jackal Recertification

TDC57

Re: USBC Petition for Jackal Recertification

12XSECH

Re: USBC Petition for Jackal Recertification