Apparently people have forgotten that Belmo can go straight.  So can Rash.  So can Osku.  10 years ago I would have said WRW in this debate.  However, if you look at most of the tv shows now, most bowlers have higher rev rates (Rash, Belmo, Osku, Barnes).  The game is much different now.  The 250rpm rev rate up teh track isnt as successful as it used to be.  The guys that can break a shot down and then move inside and play off of it are the guys you see alot now.  Like Randy Pedersen said on several shows, as soon as the outside starts to break down guys with rev rate can go inside and strike for days and it is hard for everyone else to keep up.  Body longevity is important of course.  But, if you arent making any shows like WRW, Voss, Duke did this past season, your longevity health wise wont matter because you wont be making any money and you will then be looking for another career.  Before I get flamed for bringing up those 3, I do understand they are past their primes and such.  I am just using styles and rev rates as examples. 

Duke won 3 titles this season.

He did and thats a good point.  I am just saying that if you compare the fudgers as opposed to the strappers, the strappers are going to be more successful NOW.  The reason I would not take WRW NOW, is because you take guys like him, Duke, Voss, The Trabers, and other guys that almost have to play up the outside to be successful, it isnt happening like it used to for the simple fact that technology in bowling equipment blows up the outside area much faster than it used to so they are forced to play farther inside. 

High rev bowlers are not new to the game no matter how they achieve them. Can one of the newer bowlers accomplish what WRWJr has? Very unlikely. When they break the lanes down too much as it is often seen they end up very far left trying to cover every board on the lanes and usually aren't as successful in trying to do so.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpgS-vfBlzk

or

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyN0UIPnh9U&feature=relmfu

Both Robert Smith and Jason Couch were power players( although both threw with one hand ) and their bodies ultimately could not stand up to the wear and tear. And neither of them was anywhere near Walter Ray in titles or earnings. There is something to be said about a player who throws it like Walter Ray.

I think if we all look at each others points in this conversation, we can all come to one agreement VERSATILITY IS THE KEY TO SUCCESS, BUT SPARES PAY THE BILLS. The thing we don't remember is in the early 90's, Duke was swinging the lanes as well. Go back and watch some of the shoes when he was winning everything in site with the Beast.

Quote from: stc067 on August 07, 2012, 09:42:47 AM

Duke won 3 titles this season.

He did and thats a good point.  I am just saying that if you compare the fudgers as opposed to the strappers, the strappers are going to be more successful NOW.  The reason I would not take WRW NOW, is because you take guys like him, Duke, Voss, The Trabers, and other guys that almost have to play up the outside to be successful, it isnt happening like it used to for the simple fact that technology in bowling equipment blows up the outside area much faster than it used to so they are forced to play farther inside.

Steve,

I wonder (I don't know, I just wonder) if the main reason for their success over the "fudgers" and everyone else is because they COMPLETELY and UTTERLY destroy the pattern and environment for everyone who does not throw their maximum revs, maximum ball speed type of delivery?

Please note that I do not take away the skill level of excellent bowlers like Belmonte. His is a proven skill set.

{I bowl this summer with 2 low revs, medium-high ball speed guys who use the Defiant and the Hell Raiser Revenge sanded to 1000 grit for the medium oil pattern we see, after fresh oiling. I start with a polished medium oil solid, a Big Curve or a Radar Lock or an Exodus, playing 12 out to 5. By the middle of the SECOND (!!!) game, I need a polished pearlized mild ball, like a Red Purple Backlash to play the 4th arrow. So I have an idea what people like Duke and WRW when Belmonte and Oska are bowling on the same pair must go through.}

Quote from: TWOHAND834 on August 07, 2012, 11:10:54 AM

Quote from: stc067 on August 07, 2012, 09:42:47 AM

Duke won 3 titles this season.

He did and thats a good point.  I am just saying that if you compare the fudgers as opposed to the strappers, the strappers are going to be more successful NOW.  The reason I would not take WRW NOW, is because you take guys like him, Duke, Voss, The Trabers, and other guys that almost have to play up the outside to be successful, it isnt happening like it used to for the simple fact that technology in bowling equipment blows up the outside area much faster than it used to so they are forced to play farther inside.

Steve,

I wonder (I don't know, I just wonder) if the main reason for their success over the "fudgers" and everyone else is because they COMPLETELY and UTTERLY destroy the pattern and environment for everyone who does not throw their maximum revs, maximum ball speed type of delivery?

Please note that I do not take away the skill level of excellent bowlers like Belmonte. His is a proven skill set.

{I bowl this summer with 2 low revs, medium-high ball speed guys who use the Defiant and the Hell Raiser Revenge sanded to 1000 grit for the medium oil pattern we see, after fresh oiling. I start with a polished medium oil solid, a Big Curve or a Radar Lock or an Exodus, playing 12 out to 5. By the middle of the SECOND (!!!) game, I need a polished pearlized mild ball, like a Red Purple Backlash to play the 4th arrow. So I have an idea what people like Duke and WRW when Belmonte and Oska are bowling on the same pair must go through.}

Thats just it.  In one of my posts, I did mention technology playing a huge part.  Lets look at this past PBA season.  Rash and Belmo dominated the WSOB for the most part.  There were a couple guys who could go straighter.  But it didnt work out once they made the show.  I am sure lights on the show played a part also.  The area outside, if it was playable, wasnt by the end of the first game.  Randy Pedersen made mention of it on several shows that once the area outside broke down, that almost nobody was going to keep up with Belmo.  Rash could have if he had a better ball matchup once he moved deeper.  On certain conditions, straighter is greater UNTIL the area outside is broken down.  Memory serves me correctly, both Belmo and Osku have made a telecast at the US Open.  The conditions do not get much tougher than that.  To use another example; look at Fagan.  He won one major going straight and just missed another one hooking from 25 out to 10-12.

Lets put something into perspective.  Walter won 47 times over a career that has lasted 30 years?  Belmo has 4 titles over 3 years.  He is still only 29 years old.  If the PBA even lasts that long, I am not sure that Belmo would pass WRW for titles, but chances are he will win multiple times over the next 10-15 years?  I can see him getting to 35-40 titles.  He won 3 times last year and guys like Barnes, Duke, and PDW wont be as successful as they once were.  Your main guys for Player of the Year are going to be Belmo, Rash, and Fagan. 

So in this debate over which is preferred, years ago, I would say Walter hands down.  But, today, I would have to say Belmo.  IMO...I think Belmo will have some longevity simply because even though he is a two hander, his style and approach is very compact.  He doesnt use alot of the approach so his slide knee I would think should hold up.  Someone mentioned Jason Couch.  His body did not hold up because he virtually planted his slide foot instead of actually slide.  So his knee took a beating.  The game has evolved alot in just 10 years.  Go back even farther.  Look at the 60s-70s.  Dick Weber, straight.  Don Johnson, straight.  Earl Anthony, straight.  Now get into the 80s.  Marshall Holman, hooked it a little more.  Mark Roth, hooked it a little more.  Pete Weber, hooked it a little more.  Then you get into the 90s.  You have guys like Barnes, Couch, PB3, hooked it even more.  Now you get into current times, guys are hooking it even more yet (Rash, Belmo, Osku, Fagan, Devaney).  As you have noticed, as balls hooked more and rev rates have gotten higher, the titles won by guys that throw it straighter have decreased and they guys that can rev it more, their titles are starting to increase.  Like someone said, versatility is the biggest thing that can determine success.  One thing that all those guys I mentioned above (Rash through Devaney), is that they CAN go straighter if they need to.

The PBA and WSOB is a joke. That is a whole other topic in itself, but a very good point.