Author Topic: CHOKING... a personal attack or a description of what happened? (Read 5283 times)

boomtown24 · « **on:** February 02, 2009, 04:53:41 AM »

Johnny Miller introduced this term to the airwaves and immediately it was met with harsh criticism. He uses the term choke on almost every telecast. Why do people view the term in such a negative light?

On these boards there are subjects all the time about people choking, why are they met with such defiance?

Do we always have to say "he didn't handle the situation very well?"

Is there a better term to use?

I'd like to pick everyone's mind.

JessN16 · « **Reply #16 on:** February 04, 2009, 10:06:25 AM »

quote:
Like I said, you ain't got the guts to say it to somebody's face you aint got the right to post it in an anonymous internet post. Must have hit a nerve with Jess as my original reply was not meant for him only but he sure took it that way. Was meant for all the gutless wonders who talk soooooo big on the internet.

Jess, if you feel more like a man by finding more threads and putting a ttt on them, go ahead. I could care less. This site is becoming more of a joke every day with posers such as you on it. Man up. Not everybody is going to agree with your views, though it seems you think they should.

ttt.

renaissanceman517kak · « **Reply #17 on:** February 04, 2009, 10:19:13 AM »

quote:
Not my opinion, rather a fact.

No it's an opinion...amazing how many people are so sure their opinions are fact...

renaissanceman517kak · « **Reply #18 on:** February 04, 2009, 10:22:14 AM »

quote:
What I'm getting at is that there is a lot of better ways to say someone didn't quite perform up to par without sounding like a dick.

Exactly...unfortunately, too many people don't realize they're sounding like dicks, don't care that they're sounding like dicks, or deliberately go out of their way to sound like dicks to make puff themselves up while putting someone else down...

Gazoo · « **Reply #19 on:** February 04, 2009, 10:43:56 AM »

quote:
"Failed to Produce" = CHOKE

Is it the term choke that bothers everyone?

CRD, if you went up to the guy and said "man you failed to produce" would that be any better? We have announcers that are paid to describe the action and sports writers that are paid to report on it, are they able to use "choke?" What if they have never played the game?

BTW JESS, I thought your first post was great. IMO

Really, So if a bowler throws 3 pocket shots in the 10th only to leave a 9 pin on the last ball to lose they "choked". One can throw a quality shot and "Fail to Produce" Choking emplies as stated earlier, to fail due to "nervous agitation or tension". How could anyone possibly know that except the person involved. Just another example of people stating things as fact when they don't know the facts. If the person involved says they "Choked" then you have a factual basis to make such a claim. Ofcourse the kicker who misses the game winning field goal is called a "Choker" and not the holder who had the laces facing the wrong way. Typical, as people will always assume "facts not in evidence"
--------------------
"I don't want to be remembered, I want to be forgotten"

Edited on 2/4/2009 11:46 AM

another300 · « **Reply #20 on:** February 04, 2009, 11:54:47 AM »

quote:
Failed to Produce" = CHOKE

When I CHOKE my chicken, I don't fail to produce!

JessN16 · « **Reply #21 on:** February 04, 2009, 12:03:50 PM »

quote:

Really, So if a bowler throws 3 pocket shots in the 10th only to leave a 9 pin on the last ball to lose they "choked". One can throw a quality shot and "Fail to Produce" Choking emplies as stated earlier, to fail due to "nervous agitation or tension". How could anyone possibly know that except the person involved. Just another example of people stating things as fact when they don't know the facts. If the person involved says they "Choked" then you have a factual basis to make such a claim. Ofcourse the kicker who misses the game winning field goal is called a "Choker" and not the holder who had the laces facing the wrong way. Typical, as people will always assume "facts not in evidence"
--------------------
"I don't want to be remembered, I want to be forgotten"

Edited on 2/4/2009 11:46 AM

No one is ever going to suggest a guy who covers 29 pins in the 10th choked/failed to perform/etc. Let's not use extreme strawman examples here, because that's not now nor has it ever been argued.

Someone who misses a single-pin spare? Probably choked/failed to perform/etc.

Sure, they could have stuck in the thumbhole and yanked it. Or a kid could have hollered in their backswing. But that's why they're pros and we're not. They're not supposed to let the thumbhole get out of maintenance and/or grab it. They're supposed to be able to play through outside distractions.

It's also not like the rest of us are trying to be "better" than them or say we've never done it, too. It should be understood that amateurs in any endeavor "choke" with greater frequency, on top of not having the same level of physical talent. My highest game ever is 296 -- what do you think I did on the 12th pitch? It d*mn sure wasn't throw a good shot.

Are we inside their heads and have access to their brain chemistry? No, but you don't need to be, depending on the situation (i.e, whiffing a single pin by nearly a foot, etc.). Those arguing that 29 pins in the 10th is a choke is just as wrong as saying people never choke.

Jess

rvmark · « **Reply #22 on:** February 04, 2009, 01:41:02 PM »

If you are in the 10th frame and you need strike or a spare and count for your team to win and you are the anchor bowler for your team in league and you throw a washout or miss a single pin spare did you choke (or fail to perform for those of you who want to be politically correct)?

If it is me I would say darn right I choked and let my team down.

Whether you call it failing to perform, choking, making a bad shot the end result is still the same and most likely whether it is you or a professional your or they are not going to happy with the end result.

Mark

Gazoo · « **Reply #23 on:** February 04, 2009, 01:50:34 PM »

Jess,
Never said nobody Choked and probably used a bad example in my point. I just don't use the term because I have no way of knowing whether someone is nervous or not in a particular situation which is the defintion of choking. A situation I may be nervous in doesn't mean you will be nervous. I think we assume or as you said "probably" because we know we would be nervous in that situation so everyone else is. There is just to much room between Choked and didn't pull it off for me to use a negative term for someone competing. I guess the question is if someone is not nervous, can choking occur.
--------------------
"I don't want to be remembered, I want to be forgotten"

Edited on 2/4/2009 2:51 PM

boomtown24 · « **Reply #24 on:** February 04, 2009, 01:59:31 PM »

quote:
quote:
"Failed to Produce" = CHOKE

Is it the term choke that bothers everyone?

CRD, if you went up to the guy and said "man you failed to produce" would that be any better? We have announcers that are paid to describe the action and sports writers that are paid to report on it, are they able to use "choke?" What if they have never played the game?

BTW JESS, I thought your first post was great. IMO

Really, So if a bowler throws 3 pocket shots in the 10th only to leave a 9 pin on the last ball to lose they "choked". One can throw a quality shot and "Fail to Produce" Choking emplies as stated earlier, to fail due to "nervous agitation or tension". How could anyone possibly know that except the person involved. Just another example of people stating things as fact when they don't know the facts. If the person involved says they "Choked" then you have a factual basis to make such a claim. Ofcourse the kicker who misses the game winning field goal is called a "Choker" and not the holder who had the laces facing the wrong way. Typical, as people will always assume "facts not in evidence"
--------------------
"I don't want to be remembered, I want to be forgotten"

Edited on 2/4/2009 11:46 AM

"Failed to Produce" was your term I just used it in my post.

I would describe choking as "the inability to preform under stress due to nervousness or tension created by the situation"

I agree the term CHOKE doesn't sound the greatest however, it does describe the situation quite well.

Jay · « **Reply #25 on:** February 05, 2009, 02:29:32 AM »

quote:
Choking emplies as stated earlier, to fail due to "nervous agitation or tension". How could anyone possibly know that except the person involved.

This is what I was thinking. No one can call it a choke for sure except the person that failed. But some people can't be honest about it, so you gotta go by the obvious in my opinion. If you threw a decent shot based on your skill level in a pressure situation, you didn't choke whether you struck or not in my eyes.

I'd also like to add that, if you don't know what you need in the 10th to win the game, there's no way you can consider it a choke because there's no reason for stress or pressure.

Edited on 2/5/2009 3:42 AM

gsback · « **Reply #26 on:** February 05, 2009, 10:42:49 AM »

I'd like to add a little more to this for thought.

Let's say PA and Rhino match frame for frame. In the 7th frame, PA leaves a 10pin, covers it, and comes back to the 8th and and starts striking again. Rhino is up in the 8th and leaves an 8 counts, covers it and strikes in the 9th. PA strikes out as does Rhino.....in the end, losing 279-278.

Does that make Rhino a choke?? Why not?? Is it the fact that in the 10th frame he struck out.....and that's the defining moment of him choking or not??

I guess where I am going on this is this......I can see a choke when you repeatedly do something over and over and are close to perfection. WRW needing to cover a single pin for the win.....and missing. That is a choke. He's pretty much 99% on single pins conversions. For that matter.....any pro bowler needing a single pin and missing....I would terms a choke. Striking at will though?

? That's not 100%.

For Rhine, the fact is he could have scored better at the start of the game and perhaps that would have put him in a better position to where he wouldn't have needed to strike out....or do whatever he needed.

--------------------
BR.com.....going down the toilet one nugget at a time!!

g thing is back....with a vengeance!!

www.visionarybowling.com - Accept no substitute for the very best there is!!

renaissanceman517kak · « **Reply #27 on:** February 05, 2009, 10:56:57 AM »

quote:
renaissanceman, i'm actually positive rhino page threw a bad ball when victory was in his grasp, that my friend is not an opinion

OK, but was it really a choke, or was it a case of he got distracted by whole re-rack/shot-clock thing?

renaissanceman517kak · « **Reply #28 on:** February 05, 2009, 11:00:25 AM »

Suppose someone in a clutch situation throws an absolutely HORRIBLE shot, but manages to get a ridiculously lucky carry? Choke or not?

jbruno6 · « **Reply #29 on:** February 05, 2009, 02:05:04 PM »

Please list the PBA players that don't choke. Nobody ever answers this because they all remember the moments when WRW, Bohn, Duke, Jones, Malott, Barnes, Shafer, Allenetc all threw mediocre to bad shots in a big spot. It happens.
--------------------

trash heap · « **Reply #30 on:** February 05, 2009, 03:08:44 PM »

Think about it. How many times have you seen in a PBA televised match where I guy is struggling in the 8th or 9th frames (Needing strikes to keep it close and can't do it). Once the game is out of their reach all of sudden in the tenth frame they Strike out!!!

Why? PRESSURE!! They didn't change balls or move. They threw the ball good because they were relaxed. Game is already over.

Some can perform under pressure and some can't. Those that do...get it done and win!

You see a lot of bowlers won't even look at what their opponent is doing. They can't stay focussed! Putting their hands or a towel over their face. Because they know if they need 3 strikes to win then they might not be able to do it.

Author Topic: CHOKING... a personal attack or a description of what happened? (Read 5283 times)

boomtown24

CHOKING... a personal attack or a description of what happened?

JessN16

Re: CHOKING... a personal attack or a description of what happened?

renaissanceman517kak

Re: CHOKING... a personal attack or a description of what happened?

renaissanceman517kak

Re: CHOKING... a personal attack or a description of what happened?

Gazoo

Re: CHOKING... a personal attack or a description of what happened?

another300

Re: CHOKING... a personal attack or a description of what happened?

JessN16

Re: CHOKING... a personal attack or a description of what happened?

rvmark

Re: CHOKING... a personal attack or a description of what happened?

Gazoo

Re: CHOKING... a personal attack or a description of what happened?

boomtown24

Re: CHOKING... a personal attack or a description of what happened?

Jay

Re: CHOKING... a personal attack or a description of what happened?

gsback

Re: CHOKING... a personal attack or a description of what happened?

renaissanceman517kak

Re: CHOKING... a personal attack or a description of what happened?

renaissanceman517kak

Re: CHOKING... a personal attack or a description of what happened?

jbruno6

Re: CHOKING... a personal attack or a description of what happened?

trash heap

Re: CHOKING... a personal attack or a description of what happened?