Author Topic: What does one look for in a bowling video? (Read 6509 times)

Snakster · « **on:** August 05, 2013, 08:55:35 AM »

Okay so this may be filed under: Ron's dumb question of the day, but here goes:

So we've all seen them. New ball comes out and all the usual suspects post videos of the ball in action. Generally what I see are pros or at least very accomplished/advanced bowlers pouring in strike after strike. Yes there is a note on the pattern being used and the layout of the drilling, but for the lay person like myself (and I can only assume I'm not alone), that doesn't really mean that much and really it removes an element of apples to apples comparison. Essentially what I get out of it is, wow this ball makes strikes happen.

The reality is, in my view, that the bowlers in these videos can make any ball look great from top of the line to entry level. And even in overlay videos designed to show me differences, I have to believe that person can make either ball look they way they want it to (I recognize there is an over simplification in my discussion). So anyway, when I see a video I see a good bowler bowling good.

This brings me to the question. What does one look for or more accurately, what does one see when they look at a video? Do you break it down on focusing on certain areas of any given shot? I generally now find myself just looking at the continuation of the ball through the deck. See how 'heavy' it's hitting.

Help feed my geekdom so I can look at these videos with more of a sense of purpose.

BradleyInIrving · « **Reply #1 on:** August 05, 2013, 09:04:17 AM »

Actually I believe that's a great question to ask. A lot times I would compare the layout/axis rotation/speed as compared to how I throw the ball compared to what my PAP is and think how it would react accordingly. Entry angle of the ball hitting the dry. The angle the bowler is throwing it compared to the layout, based on the lane conditions. Ask yourself, is the bowler playing the area of the lane as to how a layout you've used in the past what you'd use in the same way.... Otherwise it's a judgement call

Russell · « **Reply #2 on:** August 05, 2013, 10:49:53 PM »

There's nothing to look for....there's nothing to see. They are bowling on a slightly different condition and lane surface and don't throw it exactly the same. It's nothing more than a way for people to look at a ball and think they need it and then make the pro shop guy's life miserable because they want a ball to do something it can't.

Gizmo823 · « **Reply #3 on:** August 06, 2013, 09:34:45 AM »

Wow, lmao both of the previous replies I agree with, however different they are. I can see how a ball rolls regardless of the pattern or layout. Now the layout and pattern helps me get an idea what the ball does for those conditions, so I can estimate what they will do given different layouts and conditions. Certain ball characteristics shine through as far as roll goes, and once you can pick up on them, you'll have a much better idea what to look for as balls go. Something that helps is to watch ball videos of a ball that you either own or have a lot of experience with, say maybe a friend has it. You can look at how the ball in the video rolls compared to how your ball rolls. Note the similarities and differences, now continue to watch more. You should be able to develop a benchmark or a "correction factor" for watching videos.

Russell · « **Reply #4 on:** August 06, 2013, 10:28:28 AM »

OOOORRRRR

You could ask the pro shop professional who knows what the ball is supposed to do....knows the lane conditions you are bowling on....and how to match up with your game.

Next time you get hurt go youtube videos of injuries and then go tell the doctor how to fix you.

I'm not trying to be a jerk...but when the guy that throws knuckleballs up 10 that I drilled a Defiant Soul for that doesn't hook like the one in the video is annoyed...now he wants a Totally Defiant because it will give him the backend he needs because he saw some guy throw it at 500rpms....it makes my life difficult. I'm tired of videos making people think balls are supposed to do things they don't.

Gizmo823 · « **Reply #5 on:** August 06, 2013, 11:09:06 AM »

Quote from: Russell on August 06, 2013, 10:28:28 AM

OOOORRRRR

You could ask the pro shop professional who knows what the ball is supposed to do....knows the lane conditions you are bowling on....and how to match up with your game.

Next time you get hurt go youtube videos of injuries and then go tell the doctor how to fix you.

I'm not trying to be a jerk...but when the guy that throws knuckleballs up 10 that I drilled a Defiant Soul for that doesn't hook like the one in the video is annoyed...now he wants a Totally Defiant because it will give him the backend he needs because he saw some guy throw it at 500rpms....it makes my life difficult. I'm tired of videos making people think balls are supposed to do things they don't.

Yes, the most obvious thing to do would be to ask your pro shop operator, but do people do that? Maybe 1 out of 10. The other 9 ask their 150 average friend that bowls once a week with decade old equipment. The question was about what one looks for in a bowling video, not what one should do. Because obviously people will continue to keep considering bowling videos gospel, or we as pro shop ops would be able to easily talk them out of a bad choice, right? You're absolutely right, and I couldn't agree with you more, same boat, man.

Snakster · « **Reply #6 on:** August 06, 2013, 05:28:14 PM »

I think you are pretty much spot on in what you're saying and I think I expressed my dubious attitude toward the garden variety pro ball video. Frankly, until I see the ball video series produced by a stroker with a 185 average, I'm not particularly inclined to see a video and think that's exactly how it's going to look coming off my hand. (Note to self: begin production of ball videos. Call it 'average joe ball reviews'; resist urge to change actual name to joe)

That said, and in my admittedly limited exposure to many pro shops, I would wager that the average pro shop in my area (maybe even the one closest to my house) would sell me whatever ball I asked for; would not give a wit about my style, ball characteristics, are the house conditions 20 feet outside the proshop door. Nor would they care what my PAP is, axis of rotation, or any other metric (or offer to find out). And I believe if I said I want this ball, they would drill it up without asking me about layout; or even discussing different layout options and how they would affect ball motion.

Why do I say this? Because I know it to be true. But I'm a casual bowler. I don't belong to any leagues (yet). I don't go in with knowledge of what my numbers are, how I want a ball drilled, etc. Because I'm not 'serious', I don't get "full service" (and it seems really weird that I should have to ask for it). So in such situations, guys like me may look at ball videos or ask dumb questions in forums to try to learn. And if we are lucky, we happen upon a pro shop and an operator who treats every customer with equal attention. (I have and I will happily drive an hour each way from now on to get it)

Please don't think I'm throwing a blanket over all operators, or most, or even a large percentage. Im not....really. Most I'm sure are dedicated professionals bent on matching every player who walks through their door with the optimum equipment. But it exists. So yes, there are "moderately skilled" bowlers with unrealistic expectations because they look at pro videos of ball actions. But maybe in some cases it's because they just don't have the information to know better. And maybe, if someone asks the question, they might receive some guidance on what, if any, nuggets they could draw out of said videos.

Hey....who put that soap box there?

cheech · « **Reply #7 on:** August 06, 2013, 08:32:48 PM »

i know this isnt the topic, but if you are looking for a very respected proshop give buddies proshop a call. Chris Forry and Tim really know what they are talking about and will take time to discuss everything you would want to over the phone. the only thing you couldnt do would be to measure your hand. you could send a video and they could measure delivery specs. if your current proshop could at least measure your hand and get a comfortable fit for a cheap plastic ball you could send the ball for buddies to match and have a spare ball for the future.

Russell · « **Reply #8 on:** August 07, 2013, 12:24:43 AM »

Quote from: cheech on August 06, 2013, 08:32:48 PM

i know this isnt the topic, but if you are looking for a very respected proshop give buddies proshop a call. Chris Forry and Tim really know what they are talking about and will take time to discuss everything you would want to over the phone. the only thing you couldnt do would be to measure your hand. you could send a video and they could measure delivery specs. if your current proshop could at least measure your hand and get a comfortable fit for a cheap plastic ball you could send the ball for buddies to match and have a spare ball for the future.

This is why the pro shop industry is dying....idiots thinking that someone hundreds of miles away can do as good a job as someone in their area. You're a moron.

mainzer · « **Reply #9 on:** August 07, 2013, 10:02:20 AM »

Quote from: Russell on August 07, 2013, 12:24:43 AM

Quote from: cheech on August 06, 2013, 08:32:48 PM
i know this isnt the topic, but if you are looking for a very respected proshop give buddies proshop a call. Chris Forry and Tim really know what they are talking about and will take time to discuss everything you would want to over the phone. the only thing you couldnt do would be to measure your hand. you could send a video and they could measure delivery specs. if your current proshop could at least measure your hand and get a comfortable fit for a cheap plastic ball you could send the ball for buddies to match and have a spare ball for the future.

This is why the pro shop industry is dying....idiots thinking that someone hundreds of miles away can do as good a job as someone in their area. You're a moron.

well said Russell.

Pat Patterson · « **Reply #10 on:** August 07, 2013, 10:15:02 AM »

Nudity

CubsFan · « **Reply #11 on:** August 07, 2013, 06:40:43 PM »

Quote from: Snakster on August 06, 2013, 05:28:14 PM

I think you are pretty much spot on in what you're saying and I think I expressed my dubious attitude toward the garden variety pro ball video. Frankly, until I see the ball video series produced by a stroker with a 185 average, I'm not particularly inclined to see a video and think that's exactly how it's going to look coming off my hand. (Note to self: begin production of ball videos. Call it 'average joe ball reviews'; resist urge to change actual name to joe)

That said, and in my admittedly limited exposure to many pro shops, I would wager that the average pro shop in my area (maybe even the one closest to my house) would sell me whatever ball I asked for; would not give a wit about my style, ball characteristics, are the house conditions 20 feet outside the proshop door. Nor would they care what my PAP is, axis of rotation, or any other metric (or offer to find out). And I believe if I said I want this ball, they would drill it up without asking me about layout; or even discussing different layout options and how they would affect ball motion.

Why do I say this? Because I know it to be true. But I'm a casual bowler. I don't belong to any leagues (yet). I don't go in with knowledge of what my numbers are, how I want a ball drilled, etc. Because I'm not 'serious', I don't get "full service" (and it seems really weird that I should have to ask for it). So in such situations, guys like me may look at ball videos or ask dumb questions in forums to try to learn. And if we are lucky, we happen upon a pro shop and an operator who treats every customer with equal attention. (I have and I will happily drive an hour each way from now on to get it)

Please don't think I'm throwing a blanket over all operators, or most, or even a large percentage. Im not....really. Most I'm sure are dedicated professionals bent on matching every player who walks through their door with the optimum equipment. But it exists. So yes, there are "moderately skilled" bowlers with unrealistic expectations because they look at pro videos of ball actions. But maybe in some cases it's because they just don't have the information to know better. And maybe, if someone asks the question, they might receive some guidance on what, if any, nuggets they could draw out of said videos.

Hey....who put that soap box there?

Well said, I also know this to be true. Been to quite a few pro shops with very similar experiences as yours. One time however I went to a pro shop and the owner said to me "I'm not going to sell you a ball until I watch you roll a few frames".

Never set foot in any other pro shop again.

Gizmo823 · « **Reply #12 on:** August 08, 2013, 12:05:58 AM »

Quote from: Pat Patterson on August 07, 2013, 10:15:02 AM

Nudity

+1

BRCanada · « **Reply #13 on:** August 08, 2013, 07:02:34 AM »

at the moment we are currently doing the brunswick, dv8 and radical equipment. we try to eliminate as many variables as possible to show the reaction of the balls.

-all videos are shot at the same alley
-we have a pair freshly oiled, with the same shot, warm up on one lane, shoot the reactions on the other, so there is minimal break down, if any
-we drill all the balls exactly the same
-we leave the surfaces out of the box
-we use 3 camera angles of each shot

we have had a lot of compliments on testing balls head to head, between the brands, and we are working on other brands to help expand that.

we have had suggestions of adding in lower rev testers, since right now we have myself who is a higher rev lefty, and my brother who is a med-high rev right hander. we just havent found a player that fits our needs. its not just about throwing it and getting strikes, its about working with us on the reviews and contributing as well. we dont want to add in random people, and say "hey, you got this ball, come shoot some video".. we dont do that. we want to keep the same testers.

another suggestion is shoot the vids on another oil pattern. we like the idea, but how do we choose? we will do the house shot, and pattern X.... then everyone will be like, can i see it on pattern A? how about pattern B?, how about pattern C?...

im open to suggestions, and ill check back in this thread later. if there are any suggestions that are possible, we can take it into consideration.

Snakster · « **Reply #14 on:** August 08, 2013, 08:50:50 AM »

Quote from: CubsFan on August 07, 2013, 06:40:43 PM

Quote from: Snakster on August 06, 2013, 05:28:14 PM

I think you are pretty much spot on in what you're saying and I think I expressed my dubious attitude toward the garden variety pro ball video. Frankly, until I see the ball video series produced by a stroker with a 185 average, I'm not particularly inclined to see a video and think that's exactly how it's going to look coming off my hand. (Note to self: begin production of ball videos. Call it 'average joe ball reviews'; resist urge to change actual name to joe)

That said, and in my admittedly limited exposure to many pro shops, I would wager that the average pro shop in my area (maybe even the one closest to my house) would sell me whatever ball I asked for; would not give a wit about my style, ball characteristics, are the house conditions 20 feet outside the proshop door. Nor would they care what my PAP is, axis of rotation, or any other metric (or offer to find out). And I believe if I said I want this ball, they would drill it up without asking me about layout; or even discussing different layout options and how they would affect ball motion.

Why do I say this? Because I know it to be true. But I'm a casual bowler. I don't belong to any leagues (yet). I don't go in with knowledge of what my numbers are, how I want a ball drilled, etc. Because I'm not 'serious', I don't get "full service" (and it seems really weird that I should have to ask for it). So in such situations, guys like me may look at ball videos or ask dumb questions in forums to try to learn. And if we are lucky, we happen upon a pro shop and an operator who treats every customer with equal attention. (I have and I will happily drive an hour each way from now on to get it)

Please don't think I'm throwing a blanket over all operators, or most, or even a large percentage. Im not....really. Most I'm sure are dedicated professionals bent on matching every player who walks through their door with the optimum equipment. But it exists. So yes, there are "moderately skilled" bowlers with unrealistic expectations because they look at pro videos of ball actions. But maybe in some cases it's because they just don't have the information to know better. And maybe, if someone asks the question, they might receive some guidance on what, if any, nuggets they could draw out of said videos.

Hey....who put that soap box there?

Well said, I also know this to be true. Been to quite a few pro shops with very similar experiences as yours. One time however I went to a pro shop and the owner said to me "I'm not going to sell you a ball until I watch you roll a few frames".

Never set foot in any other pro shop again.

+1

That's why from here on out I will only go to Lee at BowlerX brick and mortar shop. Not only for myself but for my son. He's 'only' 12 but Lee wouldn't think about anything until he threw a fresh ball and he was able to map everything out. Got feed back from his wife who is my son's coach. Then they recommended several balls that would fit his game as it is now and drilling options. Outstanding. And that's for a 12 year old who has only been bowling for 8 months. He got the same level of service as the multi league advanced bowlers who frequent the shop.

When you find a good one, the difference is night and day.

Author Topic: What does one look for in a bowling video? (Read 6509 times)

Snakster

What does one look for in a bowling video?

BradleyInIrving

Re: What does one look for in a bowling video?

Russell

Re: What does one look for in a bowling video?

Gizmo823

Re: What does one look for in a bowling video?

Russell

Re: What does one look for in a bowling video?

Gizmo823

Re: What does one look for in a bowling video?

Snakster

Re: What does one look for in a bowling video?

cheech

Re: What does one look for in a bowling video?

Russell

Re: What does one look for in a bowling video?

mainzer

Re: What does one look for in a bowling video?

Pat Patterson

Re: What does one look for in a bowling video?

CubsFan

Re: What does one look for in a bowling video?

Gizmo823

Re: What does one look for in a bowling video?

BRCanada

Re: What does one look for in a bowling video?

Snakster

Re: What does one look for in a bowling video?