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Author Topic: what I learned about Dual Angle and the PAP.  (Read 11933 times)

Aloarjr810

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what I learned about Dual Angle and the PAP.
« on: July 09, 2012, 09:59:25 PM »
What I learned on another forum.

"That the way you locate the PAP is wrong"

"The X and Y values simply don't translate into anything useful other than identifying a location." (of the PAP)

"Measure from the PAP to the center of the fingers gives you a longitude, latitude value, longitude being 0 degrees."

"And A dual angle layout doesn't produce the same dynamic parameters for each bowler."

"Each bowler (worth making a layout for) has a PAP." (I guess if your not worth a layout you don't have PAP)

"At the point of release the ball will rotate around the PAP.
(technically it's the line from the PAP to NAP)"

"Now lets look at the major problem.
At the point of release, what is the position of the core in relation to where the force is applied.
It makes a big difference if the PIN is facing down, or up at that moment.
But that question can't be accurately answered if you use the current PAP identification method."

http://www.bowlingboards.com/threads/9967-PAP-Identification-Method-(-amp-Terminology)
« Last Edit: July 10, 2012, 07:03:20 PM by Aloarjr810 »
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Russell

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Re: what I learned about Dual Angle and the PAP.
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2012, 10:35:14 PM »
Holy s**t people it's just bowling....those people have WAYYYYY too much time on their hands.  Do people really think some of that stuff matters THAT much?

"WOW...I shot 574 in league with my pin facing down at release ball...if I had thrown the pin facing up at release I would have shot AT LEAST 854"

FACE + PALM
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BradleyInIrving

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Re: what I learned about Dual Angle and the PAP.
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2012, 10:50:39 PM »
The issue at hand was MW being 20yrs behind layout knowledge and why it's done that way.. I don't know how much easier it could be done or complicated it needs to be let's say than what's already done now...  MW needs to understand that ALL balls rotate around the PAP regardless of how it comes off the hand.. Pin up/Pin down (i'm guessing in layout) is irrelevant as to how it comes off your hand because it's still rotating around the PAP..
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tburky

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Re: what I learned about Dual Angle and the PAP.
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2012, 10:52:39 PM »
not to burst any bubbles but dual layouts only work for bowlers who can consistently repeat shots
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BradleyInIrving

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Re: what I learned about Dual Angle and the PAP.
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2012, 10:57:13 PM »
Tburky, then it doesn't matter the layout is or what method is used :)
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kidlost2000

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Re: what I learned about Dual Angle and the PAP.
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2012, 12:39:12 AM »
What I've learned from the internet is that everyone is an expert. Also thanks to todays technolgy it is hard to screw up a bowling ball. Case and point, demo bowling balls.
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…… you can't  add a physics term to a bowling term and expect it to mean something.

Rightycomplex

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Re: what I learned about Dual Angle and the PAP.
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2012, 05:31:53 AM »
 +1 kid.

There's so much info...... my brain..... is ....... about to........... BLOW!!!

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James C. Jones
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DON DRAPER

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Re: what I learned about Dual Angle and the PAP.
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2012, 05:54:43 AM »
It's great that you learned some tech info about this type of drilling for bowling balls but most players would benefit more from having their equipment outfitted with simple, stable drilling patterns and putting more emphasis on matching the surface of the ball with the lane conditions they'll likely see. That, and more practice.
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Pat Patterson

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Re: what I learned about Dual Angle and the PAP.
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2012, 06:15:06 AM »
I am a big fan of the Dual Angle layouts, but sometimes you just have to throw the damn ball!  :)
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Pat Patterson

kidlost2000

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Re: what I learned about Dual Angle and the PAP.
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2012, 06:23:02 AM »
I've read through all 7 pages and realized i was stupid for doing so.
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…… you can't  add a physics term to a bowling term and expect it to mean something.

Berreez

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Re: what I learned about Dual Angle and the PAP.
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2012, 07:25:49 AM »
Quote from: Pat Patterson on July 10, 2012, 06:15:06 AM
I am a big fan of the Dual Angle layouts, but sometimes you just have to throw the damn ball!  :)

+1
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Stan

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Re: what I learned about Dual Angle and the PAP.
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2012, 08:59:06 AM »
Like I have said many times, Dual Angle is just another way to draw the lines on a ball. Using Pin to Pap with pin buffer will produce the same results.

But I do agree, that too much emphasis is being placed on layout and not enough on throwing the same shot twice.

Why worry about a layout, if you can't repeat shots ?  I also feel that more emphasis should be placed on the ball characteristics and surface.  As many have said, you can't make a snow tire into a racing slick or a racing slick into a snow tire.  Same goes for bowling balls.  If a ball is designed for dry lanes, meaning core and surface is a dry lane match, then regardless how you drill it, it will not work very well on very oily lanes.

So +1 for Don and Pat
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JohnP

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Re: what I learned about Dual Angle and the PAP.
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2012, 11:09:53 AM »
Quote
Like I have said many times, Dual Angle is just another way to draw the lines on a ball. Using Pin to Pap with pin buffer will produce the same results.

This is a true statement.  The advantage the dual angle system has is not in drawing the lines on a ball, it's in selecting the layout to fit the customer's game.  The method is explained very well in Mo's Dual Angle Layout Procedure (see link below), and it works.  I've never seen anything equivalent for any of the other layout systems.  --  JohnP

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/images/c/cd/DualAngle.pdf

Note:  The majority of this article is about how to lay the ball out.  If you're not planning to lay balls out skip to the section on P. 11 titled "The effective use of dual angle layouts".
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tburky

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Re: what I learned about Dual Angle and the PAP.
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2012, 06:32:36 PM »
Quote from: BradleyInIrving on July 09, 2012, 10:57:13 PM
Tburky, then it doesn't matter the layout is or what method is used :)


for the average bowler it doesn't matter what the layout is or what method is used. It matters for above and up
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kidlost2000

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Re: what I learned about Dual Angle and the PAP.
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2012, 07:52:17 PM »
 A demo ball works great for many bowlers but isn't the same for all. Knowing a bowlers positive axis point and laying out a pattern by any method gives the driller a better chance of getting the desired reaction for the bowler. It must be done with the proper ball as well. It won't make plastic hook the whole lane.

Where the dual angle method also shines is that you have a chart that tells you what effect using certain angles will do along with certain pin to pap distances will do. Then you combine them with the ball your using to get a desired reaction for the specific bowler your drilling for.

I can understand through 7 pages of painful reading what the guys is trying to do because he says he doesn't understand everything about layout reactions but does understand spheres.

"If it weren't for my horse" is all I can think.
http://comedians.jokes.com/lewis-black/videos/lewis-black---college-horse/
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…… you can't  add a physics term to a bowling term and expect it to mean something.
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