Author Topic: What is a Reasonable Handicap.... (Read 21761 times)

TWOHAND834 · « **on:** April 05, 2011, 11:21:23 PM »

....for money leagues? We got into a debate recently at the fact that leagues that are $20-25 a night, have 30 teams, and the overwhelming majority of the bowlers are over 200, have handicaps based on 220 and even 230. So I thought it would be cool to debate that. If you are in a league where you have a hefty prize fund, what is a "reasonable handicap"? Should it be based off of 210, 220, 230....?

IMO.....handicaps should be based on a lower average, say 210, because I think it would help eliminate some bagging that goes on. Granted there are people in the leagues that average 220+ but the overall majority of the league is 200-210, with similarities in the number of 220 bowlers as there are 190 bowlers. I think that if you continue to have handicaps based on 220-230, you will continue to have teams with a "We won the first third/quarter so we can bag the rest of the year and build up handicap for the rolloffs" mentality. I know it goes on in just about every money league and realize this is a huge uphill battle. But, it has gotten to a point to where I dont care about those types of leagues anymore. I have had more fun in the $15.00/week leagues the past few years than the money leagues. There is a league at a center here that is $15.00/week and takes up almost all 40 lanes.

So what do you guys think? Curious to find out if it was completely up to you, what would you base the handicap on?

Peace doesnt always have to be silent.

icefiction · « **Reply #16 on:** April 06, 2011, 07:28:25 PM »

I would agree, however I had our league secretary run league stats, and for the entire year the league average has gone up not down, so that means that in general everyone is shooting over their average more often than not.

Russell · « **Reply #17 on:** April 06, 2011, 09:17:51 PM »

Okay look I get tired of the whining from the high average bowlers about handicap....so I'll ask you a question or two Steven:

- Do you bowl any scratch tourneys?

- Do you go out of your way to find level competition?

I think we know the answer to both of those questions. You go to Nationals with weak teams and bowl on weak teams in leagues that you are the big dog in. You hardly bowl in the true competitive leagues anymore and never are seen at scratch tournaments. How can you sit here and whine about handicap being too high in money leagues when you avoid true competition like the plague?

You just want to have the advantage against those not as blessed with athletic ability. You can't win all of the time, and if you want to rape the lower average bowlers....they'll eventually quit (how's the South Gwinnett Men's league doing?.

Little known fact: In Russian "Hope" and "Change" translate to "Tax" and "Spend"

bowlallthetime · « **Reply #18 on:** April 06, 2011, 09:35:23 PM »

Regarding lower average bowlers bowling over average more than a high average bowler: not true on my team. I averaged 215 last year. I bowled over average 50 out of 90 games. My wife, who has been a 155 average bowler for the past 5 years, bowled over average 47/90 games. If it was a new bowler who actually cared about getting better, I'm sure they would have more games over their average than under. But if it is your typical league bowler who keeps roughly the same average every year, they should have roughly the same number of games over as they have under.

Ask your center to give you the end of the year, game by game stats for all bowlers. Please create a spreadsheet so you can see there isn't a difference between high/low average bowlers.

kidlost2000 · « **Reply #19 on:** April 06, 2011, 10:14:28 PM »

Considering handicap on most leagues and tournaments is usually maxed at 80% of 220, if you average 215-218 or 230 it doesn't matter.

At 215 your losing 4 pins a game.

At 218 your losing 1 pin a game

If it mattered that much you should have not set an average for that year.

Be good, or be good at it.

trash heap · « **Reply #20 on:** April 07, 2011, 06:47:20 AM »

Does your league establish a new average each year. If so that would make sense. Two reasons: First most leauge bowlers take the summer off. So it takes a while to get back into things. Second: Be honest if there is any kind of prize involved, I guarantee most bowlers are making sure they start out slow. They don't say it ... but you know that is what they are doing.

icefiction wrote on 4/6/2011 7:28 PM:I would agree, however I had our league secretary run league stats, and for the entire year the league average has gone up not down, so that means that in general everyone is shooting over their average more often than not.

TWOHAND834 · « **Reply #21 on:** April 09, 2011, 06:29:10 PM »

First of all, Randy, you are 110% wrong here. You apparently dont know my work schedule. You apparently dont know that I gained custody of my daughter. I would think of all the people on this site, that you would know from personal experience that life changes. It has NOTHING to do with not wanting to "go out of my way to FIND competition". Seriously?

? I only wish that I had my own business and set my own hours. I could only wish that my wife didnt care if I got home at 1:00 a.m. because I chose to go bowl 50-60 miles from home. You also apparently have absolutely no clue as to the reason I posted this because if you read it completely, you would have comprehended it the way it should have been. So let me get more in depth for you.

There is a team that won a third. Only 1 person is averaging higher now compared to when they won that third. Most of the bowlers are between 5-10 pins LOWER now compared to 20 weeks ago. They went from winning a third to being in 25th out of 26 teams the last 2 thirds. What do you call that?

Also, FYI, I havent won a league since we bowled together back about 8 years ago; which includes all the "weaker" leagues in which I have supposedly bowled. As you know, there really arent any scratch leagues anymore because people are too scared. I would absolutely LOVE IT if we could get a good scratch league within a reasonable driving distance from the house. That will NEVER happen. If you want to talk a big game, use your connections as a pro shop owner and see if you can get a scratch league up at the center where your shop is located and see how many people show up.

So chill out a little and let people have a friendly conversation about a sport we love to participate in. NOWHERE in my original post did I mention that "this sucks" or "this is bull crap" or anything like that. All I said is that there was a debate one night about what a reasonable handicap was for MONEY LEAGUES and wanted to see what other people thought. Boy I guess I got what I asked for. Thanks for sharing.

Russell wrote on 4/6/2011 9:17 PM:
Okay look I get tired of the whining from the high average bowlers about handicap....so I'll ask you a question or two Steven:

- Do you bowl any scratch tourneys?

- Do you go out of your way to find level competition?

I think we know the answer to both of those questions. You go to Nationals with weak teams and bowl on weak teams in leagues that you are the big dog in. You hardly bowl in the true competitive leagues anymore and never are seen at scratch tournaments. How can you sit here and whine about handicap being too high in money leagues when you avoid true competition like the plague?

You just want to have the advantage against those not as blessed with athletic ability. You can't win all of the time, and if you want to rape the lower average bowlers....they'll eventually quit (how's the South Gwinnett Men's league doing?.

Little known fact: In Russian "Hope" and "Change" translate to "Tax" and "Spend"

Peace doesnt always have to be silent.

baseball · « **Reply #22 on:** April 09, 2011, 07:14:24 PM »

in our area scratch leagues have disappeared because the top bowlers get on a couple teams and run away with all the $.then people go back to handicap leagues. answer? balance the teams, but they won't do it, the top bowlers don't want to because they want all the $.

TWOHAND834 · « **Reply #23 on:** April 10, 2011, 10:05:58 AM »

Thats the big issue in regards to this. People see "scratch" and then they want to stack a team. You turn around and put a cap, say 840-850 and then they run because they know that means they have to bowl with people averaging 190. Scratch leagues have diminished for one reason: averages have gotten too high. Your 230s will only bowl with others averaging that high and the 190s want no part of a scratch league because of the 230s. The ONLY possible way you are going to see bowling get to where it was 10-20 years ago, is make the shots tougher where the ELITE bowlers are averaging 215-220. When bowling really prospered, is when your highest averages were around 215-220 and the league average was 190. Back then, you could have 840 caps on team averages where you would have a 220 bowler with 2 guys at 210 and 1 at 200. In todays world, forget about it. We have a person who is about the set the Greater Atlanta record for average for a full league season. He is averaging in the mid 240s. Who is he going to bowl with next year?

So....unless averages start to drop, bowling will continue to diminish. The answer always seems to be more more more handicap. Granted numbers dont lie. However, either do winning percentages. From where I sit, 240 seems to be the magic number now to have any real success at the league level. He is winning about 70% of his points this year. I am averaging 230 and not sure I am at 60%. Some of the guys with the higher winning percentages are the guys at 200-210 because of that handicap. That person at 200 shooting 225 makes the 230 guy shoot 250 to beat them. I guarantee there are more 220s shot on a given night than a 250.

Here is my idea in hopes of eliminating sandbagging. Whatever averages you have at the time of winning a third/quarter, thats the average you have to use in the rolloffs. In other words; if a team is averaging:

200, 205, 210, 190, 215 = 1020 You win a round at these averages, these are the averages you use in the rolloffs. This will help eliminate bowlers to then go into the rolloffs with: 190, 190, 195, 190, 205 = 970

baseball wrote on 4/9/2011 7:14 PM:
in our area scratch leagues have disappeared because the top bowlers get on a couple teams and run away with all the $.then people go back to handicap leagues. answer? balance the teams, but they won't do it, the top bowlers don't want to because they want all the $.

Peace doesnt always have to be silent.

mainzer · « **Reply #24 on:** April 10, 2011, 11:13:15 AM »

Russel not everyone can be as great as you. Lol, wow, rip the guy apart more.

IMO if you average more than 210 you shouldn't need handicap anymore. Enough said.

"Complexity lay within the artistry of execution"

+++Henry Zou+++

Founding FatherBR Inquisition
MainzerPower

sigmaphi9 · « **Reply #25 on:** April 10, 2011, 03:25:14 PM »

Question for you. What base are you using; 220, 230?

The Curmudgeon wrote on 4/10/2011 12:22 PM:
Wow, pages devoted to a question that there is only one answer to......there is no reasonable handicap amount. High average bowlers and teams don't want to have anything to do with what has statistically proven to be the fairest handicap percentage, 116%.

icefiction · « **Reply #26 on:** April 10, 2011, 06:04:24 PM »

i saw somewhere in the thread someone asked about establishing an average each year. The league I bowl in does, and this year they went crazy and decided that you establish and average after your first three games. Needless to say do I even need to give examples of how most bowlers took advantage of this? In my league only team captains are allowed in the meeting before the league begins in september, I am not a captain, but I mean really, 3 games, if thats not intentionaly letting sandbagging happen than what is? When the league president was questioned about why the rule was changed he said it was for the best. He had league high average for four years in a row, his team lost the league those four years, and this year his average is only down a meager 22 pins, coeincidence?

I understand that handicap makes things equal or is at least designed to, but some people need to face facts, and that is bowling can be a second source of income for those who have the right numbers and skill level, and in certain situations these bowlers are the masses and not the minority.

I can also speak to the fact that I do travel to find scratch competition, but given that the amount of money to be won has been cut in half by gas prices, i have chosen not to pursue many options. My house hosted a scratch league this past summer, at the first week no one could agree on averages or handicap, yes handicap was brought up at the scratch league meeting. So as much as you might think that the high average bowlers are just looking out for their own pocket books, some of us just want some equality among the masses.

Russell · « **Reply #27 on:** April 10, 2011, 08:13:56 PM »

So you're saying at 80% of 210 I don't NEED handicap...and that somehow it is good for the 190 bowler? Please let me bowl them for $10,000 per game and we'll see who "needs" handicap.

mainzer wrote on 4/10/2011 11:13 AM:Russel not everyone can be as great as you. Lol, wow, rip the guy apart more.

IMO if you average more than 210 you shouldn't need handicap anymore. Enough said.

"Complexity lay within the artistry of execution"

+++Henry Zou+++

Founding FatherBR Inquisition
MainzerPower

Little known fact: In Russian "Hope" and "Change" translate to "Tax" and "Spend"

TWOHAND834 · « **Reply #28 on:** April 11, 2011, 09:17:20 AM »

Correct!!! Once you hit that 210 plateau, you should not need handicap anymore. If you want handicap, go find that $15.00/week "handicap" league where the league average is 175-180 as opposed to 200+ for the money leagues. Why walk into a money league where there will be more 210 and higher bowlers than 190 and lower and then complain about handicap?

For the record, I believe that our league is 90% of 220 and we pay $25.00 a week.

Peace doesnt always have to be silent.

storm making it rain · « **Reply #29 on:** April 11, 2011, 09:42:22 AM »

@two hand

Are you really saying that once you get to 210 now a days you don't need handicap?

IMO thats not even close to being true. Are you saying that a 210 guy can compete with a 230-240 guy?

I'll answer that one NO NO he can't. Maybe on a given night the 210 can win, but on a 35 week season I'm willing to bet the 230-240 guy wins 30 out of 35 weeks against the 210 guy at 80% of 210.

just my 2 cents

Russell · « **Reply #30 on:** April 11, 2011, 10:05:37 AM »

lol...good luck finding enough idiots that suck at math to be stupid enough to give you a 30 pin head start with your high 230s average. You really think you can put a league together and expect someone who averages 205 to donate money when they get 4 pins of cap against your 238 average?

You have a horrible game and shoot 212...

They shoot their average and bowl 205....with handicap it's 209....

You win....and miss your average by 26 pins....yeah that league will do well.

I stand by my comments before. You have complained about handicap a number of times on here....yet you don't show up at scratch tournaments. You really haven't for as long as I have known you. I am not saying every scratch bowler should be out bowling all of the time, but if you're not willing to shoe up with the higher level of competition....what room do you have to complain?

TWOHAND834 wrote on 4/11/2011 9:17 AM:
Correct!!! Once you hit that 210 plateau, you should not need handicap anymore. If you want handicap, go find that $15.00/week "handicap" league where the league average is 175-180 as opposed to 200+ for the money leagues. Why walk into a money league where there will be more 210 and higher bowlers than 190 and lower and then complain about handicap?

For the record, I believe that our league is 90% of 220 and we pay $25.00 a week.

Peace doesnt always have to be silent.

Little known fact: In Russian "Hope" and "Change" translate to "Tax" and "Spend"

Edited by Russell on 4/11/2011 at 8:43 PM

Author Topic: What is a Reasonable Handicap.... (Read 21761 times)

TWOHAND834

What is a Reasonable Handicap....

icefiction

Re: What is a Reasonable Handicap....

Russell

Re: What is a Reasonable Handicap....

bowlallthetime

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kidlost2000

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trash heap

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TWOHAND834

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baseball

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TWOHAND834

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mainzer

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sigmaphi9

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icefiction

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Russell

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TWOHAND834

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storm making it rain

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Russell

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