Author Topic: Sandbagging - some thoughts I had last night... (Read 3814 times)

mumzie · « **on:** January 05, 2010, 09:53:20 AM »

I was talking with our local HOF PBA member last night, and we were talking about sandbagging/scratch leagues/handicap leagues.

Although I've really known this for a long time, it became clear that there's only one way to state it - sandbagging is MUCH WORSE when the bagged average is used to get into a scratch league - in contrast to a handicap league. I'm NOT referring to tournament play here - only leagues.

When you use a bagged average to get into a handicap league, it really is self regulating. As you start to bowl better, your average goes up, therefore your handicap goes down. Maybe not really to where it belongs, but the benefit decreases as your performance improves.

When that average is used to get into a scratch league, where everything is based on entering average cap, your benefit is all season long. For example - if I come in with 170 - to fit nicely under or at the league cap - but average 210 all year - there is nothing in the rules to prohibit that - and my team reaps the benefit.

Now a lot of you are saying well duh - and I agree. The difference is between knowing it and being able to state it.
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Atochabsh · « **Reply #16 on:** January 12, 2010, 12:19:32 AM »

quote:
The easiest way to fix this, at least in the league aspect, is to use a composite average over that last 3 years.

This would help. But most leagues are looking for as many bowlers as they can get so they do not want to discourage participation. Even to the extent of allowing "horses". These are not baggers, but rapidly improving bowlers. Even so, if you want to keep horses and baggers out then you need to build in more rules to your league. The problem is that many people do not have years of averages to compile. And if you really want to stop this, then you do not allow people to bowl that have less then a one year average history.

If you have an "open" scratch league then you don't have a cap. Problem is that people bowl one year and then drop. That's why they put a cap on it. But a league can also put a minimum average requirement in the rules too.

Erin

txbowler · « **Reply #17 on:** January 12, 2010, 09:50:02 AM »

You also put a cap on a scratch league to prevent the 5 highest averages in town from forming a team together. This happened 10 years ago in a high $ league I was in. League had 24 teams. After these 5 joined together and won the league 4 years in a row...league had 8 teams.

9andaWiggle · « **Reply #18 on:** January 12, 2010, 10:06:09 AM »

I agree with Shelley about the fact that we have the ability to track and prove repeat sandbag offenders, but nobody seems interested in doing that.

If scratch leagues were bowled on more challenging lane conditions, it would be much more difficult for a bagger to come in with a THS average and jump 20-40 pins over the season.

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Bigmike · « **Reply #19 on:** January 12, 2010, 10:55:50 AM »

A problem we had in our area was several years ago, a proprieter ran a "reality" league with tough sport shots, but didn't sanction it as sport. He did not want to run the tapes and turn in the paperwork every week nor make the bowlers and subs pay the additional sport fee. For some folks this was there only book average and a lot of folks were easily 20-30 pins under there norm. The same guy ran a partial draft league at another center but reserved the right to rerate your entering average at any time as team entering average determined drafting order. You can imagine what draft night was like for the captains that don't know every one and there "normal" averages.

A co-worker of mine had a knee replacement and started back too soon so his game and average suffered as he dropped to 168. This proprietier rerated him on draft night to 195 off past reputation. The poor guy barely cracked 180 that year and refuses to bowl there now.

Our local and state tournaments had several people with those unsanctioned "sport" averages hold there own quite well in handicap brackets and cash spots. To me this is a legalized form of cheating.
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Atochabsh · « **Reply #20 on:** January 12, 2010, 12:34:56 PM »

quote:
A co-worker of mine had a knee replacement and started back too soon so his game and average suffered as he dropped to 168. This proprietier rerated him on draft night to 195 off past reputation.

Now that's not really fair. Especially since you can easily prove the surgery.

Erin

jbruno6 · « **Reply #21 on:** January 12, 2010, 12:46:21 PM »

I agree with the OP. The sandbagging from years ago was rampant. The scratch leagues in our area always had an eye on the kid practicing, getting better. It was usually a younger guy or girl averaging 175-185 with an old ball, bowling in a mixed handicap league. People would spot them and tell them to keep it at around 178, 179, etc. The next fall the guy or girl, breaks on the scene and average 195, and that team was near the top.

The handicap league, even though its capped, doesnt get as much. After 9 games in our league the averages are set, so the good (sandbagger)bowler can hide for 3 weeks only.

In spite of this, I do miss the old days. And I miss the action of our scratch classic leagues.
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neb5482 · « **Reply #22 on:** January 12, 2010, 12:48:49 PM »

I used to bowl in a 5 man scratch travel league that has a 1040 average cap. In my opinion sandbagging occurs. I have seen teams throw an entire week to keep there average under 1040 for the next season. Teams let up at the end of games when they have a significant lead. For some reason all of this is tolerated by a majority of the leagues bowlers. To enter the league your highest book from the last 2 years is used, or your last average in this league. If you don't have an average at all then you come in at 208. Ive seen teams win a season and finish with a 1070 average come back and average 1020 with the same team the next season, change out one bowler and low and behold average 1070 again. The solution to all this is to just avoid bowling in these leagues and find a pure scratch league and have a go at it.

Bigmike · « **Reply #23 on:** January 12, 2010, 07:58:00 PM »

This dates me but I bowled in a scratch traveling league that had a 975 cap about 20 years ago. Now this was not the days of the 230-240 averages that can be the high now in scratch leagues, but the high guy had 216, then 211, then between 209-205 rounded out the top 12. I was proud to be 207 in that league and be second high righty behind the high average in the league.

This league used your high average or if you had established an average in the league after 21 games in the previous year or the current season. This was the days when certain houses could really eat people up and guys would get subs at these places rather than beat there heads against the wall that day.

We also bowled on Saturday at 2 PM, which in a lot of places meant following the youth leagues. We had some crazy things happen like coming to a center and the house did not know we were supposed to be there and the lanes hadn't been dressed since prior to first shift the night before! We always kept a lefty on our team for these reasons and he was a pretty good player to boot and could lead the league once in awhile if the left was still playable for him.

To make the cap when a sub was used was always a challenge, but then you had to find someone you thought could hit the center you were going to be at as well. Each year there would be a couple of juniors decide around Jan/Feb to jump adult and get to take 195 for an entering average. If you knew these kids were better at a certain place, you grabbed them up before they got a book average in the league. We dropped a guy we knew was quitting at the end of the season and put a kid on who was going to probably end up in the 200's one season for this very reason. This was the kind of league where an old guy who could shoot 560 every week in the parking lot was just as valuable as a kid who could shoot 750 as easily as 450.

Now with all of that being said, do you think this was sandbagging?
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nextbowler · « **Reply #24 on:** January 12, 2010, 11:02:32 PM »

Some of the capped scratch leagues here have gone to handicap, not individual
but team difference. The usual handicap is 80% of the difference in the
teams' averages. It is not perfect, but it eliminates some of the problems
with people coming in under or over their averages.

Author Topic: Sandbagging - some thoughts I had last night... (Read 3814 times)

mumzie

Sandbagging - some thoughts I had last night...

Atochabsh

Re: Sandbagging - some thoughts I had last night...

txbowler

Re: Sandbagging - some thoughts I had last night...

9andaWiggle

Re: Sandbagging - some thoughts I had last night...

Bigmike

Re: Sandbagging - some thoughts I had last night...

Atochabsh

Re: Sandbagging - some thoughts I had last night...

jbruno6

Re: Sandbagging - some thoughts I had last night...

neb5482

Re: Sandbagging - some thoughts I had last night...

Bigmike

Re: Sandbagging - some thoughts I had last night...

nextbowler

Re: Sandbagging - some thoughts I had last night...