Post by: bamaster on March 21, 2005, 10:54:22 AM
I ask because the Online Proshops forum here is dominated by kudos for Buddies. They run a great operation, without a doubt, but I hardly think it's justified glorification. Here is why...
When you buy something online, you are SUPPOSED to receive it. If you live in the same state as where it's being shipped from, you are SUPPOSED to receive within a day or so. I mean, when you buy a Big Mac meal at the McDonalds drive through, do you call your friends and tell them that you received it within minutes of ordering and that they are the best fast food joint?
Haha! I know I sound like a bitter e-tailer, but I'm not, honest injin. But from my perspective, it seems that I'm working too hard.
Or am I the only one that feels this way?
Tony
http://www.allBowling.com
Post by: shelley on March 22, 2005, 10:36:43 AM
McDonald's is supposed to give you the food you ordered promptly. But have you ever been to a McD's and felt like they were glad you came in, they were happy to have your business, and that they're really interested in how your purchase worked out? They don't have to feel that way, and by and large, they don't, I think.
SH
Post by: bamaster on March 22, 2005, 11:05:40 AM
quote:
Probably has a lot to do with the fact that they post on here regularly, both as bowlers and as representatives of their shop. Yes, they do the things they are supposed to do, but they don't seem like they're just doing it because that's what they're supposed to do.
I didn't want this to turn into a Buddies thread... but how can they show their appreciation when online shopping is as impersonal as can be. I mean, they get orders in by e-mail with specs, and they ship... like the rest of us do.
Most threads I read in that forum rarely talk about anything out of the ordinary. I'm sure they (as well as many other shops) go to great lengths to find a specific ball with specific specs from obscure locations. I just don't see that.
One of the biggest obstacles for an online store is to instill confidence in consumers. Buddies has show themselves to be reliable, without a doubt. The question I have is... is that all it takes to have you buy again?
Tony
Post by: Steven on March 22, 2005, 11:55:53 AM
However, I do use wildoctopusbowling.com for scotchbrite and innovativebowling.com for spinner supplies, because these are specialty items I can't get locally. In these cases, confidence that they'll reliably deliver keeps me as a repeat customer.
In a world filled with flaky on-line establishments, it's actually a joy to experience businesses who simple do what they're supposed to.
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"You want the truth? -- You can't handle the truth! "
Post by: janderson on March 22, 2005, 12:07:39 PM
To build on the McDonald's analogy - have you ever had fries that were old and soggy, drinks that were low on syrup, burgers tossed together in a mess? Did you expect/want/demand that? Likely not.
With Buddies, as well as other companies, I have gotten exactly what I expected (or more) every time. To me, that is a good service and makes for a good purchase.
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Kill the back row (or maybe this should read "make your spares, dummy")
Post by: JPRLane1 on March 22, 2005, 12:10:05 PM
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There is only one Lane#1. Know it, Live it, Throw it or Get Beat by IT! 
Leader & Founder of Fellowship of the Saws! Respect us or get left in our Saw Dust!
Honorary member of the almighty NATION!
Post by: bamaster on March 22, 2005, 01:04:41 PM
quote:
So my ? is what would you have offered me in this case.
This is one of those trick questions, huh? Like when the wife asks if a dress makes her butt look fat? No win situation.
Here's the dealio. Buddies pricing is very popular with consumers... but NOT popular with pro shop proprietors, at all. If you were to buy 8 balls from me at my prices, which is still a good value imo, I would have some wiggle room for a free towel or maybe a $10 off your next purchase coupon, or something. But if you are asking me to meet Buddies and then give you something, that's a double hit for me.
Then the question is, why would I do that? Why would I want a loyal customer that causes me work but no profit? As someone that is trying to run a business, the value in low-margin customers is just that... low. I am not a fan of buying customer loyalty, especially from customers that are trying to squeeze every nickel out of the sale. It doesn't make me a "bad" shop when I don't give something away, does it?
You may recall late last year the CEO of Best Buy called some customers "demons", the ones that are bargain hunters, rebate hungry, who take advantage of price-guarantees and free shipping, etc. He caught a lot of flack for that but shows that not all customers are desireable. It's your money and we all try to get the best deal possible. However, as a small business owner I understand the frustration when a customer is squeezing. Truth be told, those types of customers are more trouble than it's worth... literally.
Artile about Best Buy
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2004/07/05/national1332EDT0564.DTL
Tony
Post by: a_ak57 on March 22, 2005, 01:15:16 PM
I think the big thing is customer service. They also have better prices than most places.
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- Andy
Brunswick...........'nuff said.
Post by: bamaster on March 22, 2005, 01:27:35 PM
quote:
but Tony how many customers do you have calling up ordering 8 balls in one shot? He is not talking about a one or two ball purchase with some sort of freebie/discount, because he is a loyal customer, this is just a major purchase that probably would warant some sort of item/discount
I've never sold two cases to one person. Yes it is a big order, but to ask me to meet the cheapest price he could find online and then throw something addiitonal in for free, is nothing short of ridiculous.
The real question is, why didn't Buddies throw in a free towel? Do they not have any that only cost a few bucks? What's $4 to a bigtime shop like Buddies?
I'm going to side with them on their decision. There is no benefit in attracting "gimme" customers. All I can do is make my prices as competitive as possible, while trying to stay in business... answer all questions as promptly as possible, fix things when things go wrong, and treat every customer with the respect that I would like in return.
Just my take on things.
Tony
Post by: Strapper_Squared on March 22, 2005, 01:40:24 PM
In JPR's case, he expected some sort of discount or extra for buy 2 cases of balls. Personally, I probably would expect the same. That's a lot of business / money for an individual to spend, so they should be trying to attact my sales. If they can't provide a significant savings, then I would definitely buy locally.
In my case, I order accessories from them as they aren't carried here locally. I want a fair price and quick shipment. From my experience, buddies provides that. A friend of mine had ordered a while back from the infamous beachbowl proshop... sent money, but guess what??? They never came through on their end of the deal... claimed it was back ordered, then shipping troubles... next thing he knows they are out of business and he's screwed.
So, I think they are a valuable resource.. and offer a good service. Sometimes you can do better buying locally... sometimes not. I guess I'm sort of democratic with the idea of why spend your money else where, when you can get as good or better locally for a comparable price (feel very strongly about automobiles, but that's a differrent post)??? I'm not supporting or bashing buddies, but from my experience, once you place your order, they hold up their end of the deal.
S^2
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-Strapper Squared
Looking for a girl you can keep tabs on???
http://www.womenbehindbars.com/
Post by: JPRLane1 on March 22, 2005, 01:40:52 PM
So you wouldn't want to give me a really good deal on a large purchase one time even if you had to cut your profits and throw in something free if it meant getting me as loyal customer who would purchase other balls in the future from you and look for nothing in return.
My local guy has told me his cost on some balls and sometimes I can buy cheaper than him just online, he obviously didn't have to match buddies prices and couldn't do it all the time but he did this time.
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There is only one Lane#1. Know it, Live it, Throw it or Get Beat by IT! Leader & Founder of Fellowship of the Saws! Respect us or get left in our Saw Dust!Honorary member of the almighty NATION!Edited on 3/22/2005 2:38 PM
Post by: JPRLane1 on March 22, 2005, 02:11:57 PM
quote:
JPR, here is my question for you. Did your pro shop include drilling in that 8 ball purchase?
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Dan Knopf
Just a bowler
http://Truck3@sbcglobal.net
No and that wasn't part of the discussion these balls aren't going ot be for me they are for trade so they aren't getting drilled by me. Drilling doesn't apply in this discussion.
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There is only one Lane#1. Know it, Live it, Throw it or Get Beat by IT! Leader & Founder of Fellowship of the Saws! Respect us or get left in our Saw Dust!Honorary member of the almighty NATION!
Post by: bamaster on March 22, 2005, 02:15:34 PM
Tony
Post by: JPRLane1 on March 22, 2005, 02:20:12 PM
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There is only one Lane#1. Know it, Live it, Throw it or Get Beat by IT! Leader & Founder of Fellowship of the Saws! Respect us or get left in our Saw Dust!Honorary member of the almighty NATION!
Post by: Moe on March 22, 2005, 02:21:10 PM
I have never bothered to order from another place, just becasue buddies has been so good to me, someone here at BR reccomended them to me years ago, been ordering there ever since.
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AIM = y2moe99
Post by: bamaster on March 22, 2005, 02:32:15 PM
If that is shipped and your proshop matched it... then threw in ~$65 of tax, I have a hard time believing your guy made more than $10 on the sale.
No disrespect, but you robbed him.
Tony
Post by: JPRLane1 on March 22, 2005, 02:38:11 PM
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There is only one Lane#1. Know it, Live it, Throw it or Get Beat by IT! Leader & Founder of Fellowship of the Saws! Respect us or get left in our Saw Dust!Honorary member of the almighty NATION!
Post by: JPRLane1 on March 22, 2005, 02:47:11 PM
My bottom line is $900 is not a huge amount of money to me in general but is more than I usually spend on bowling in one lump my prior high was probably around $500 or so. For this large purchase I expect the lowest price possible and a special deal from anyone if I spend this much on bowling in one shot. If I walked in my proshop right now and said can i have this towel or can I have this grip sack he would say sure. Thats all I was looking for I wasn't asking buddies to cut their hand off and hand it to me. I don't think its too much to ask. I don't know how much balls cost and I don't know their profit margins or my locals guys but there are always exceptions to the rule that I feel should be made to loyal customers.
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There is only one Lane#1. Know it, Live it, Throw it or Get Beat by IT! Leader & Founder of Fellowship of the Saws! Respect us or get left in our Saw Dust!Honorary member of the almighty NATION!
Post by: shelley on March 22, 2005, 02:54:19 PM
quote:
One of the biggest obstacles for an online store is to instill confidence in consumers. Buddies has show themselves to be reliable, without a doubt. The question I have is... is that all it takes to have you buy again?
Why not? What else would you like? As I see it, there is little to differentiate online shops from one another except price and service. Buddies has, for the most part, the best prices and their shipping is very reasonable. The two balls I've ordered from them were closeouts and I feel like I've gotten good deals on both. I couldn't get deals like that from the other big online shops like Bowling.com or Bowlersparadise.com since they don't really list much (or anything) in the way of closeouts or specials. So I continue to buy from Buddies.
My next purchase will probably be local as one of my teammates keeps saying that I should give his long-time driller a shot. He raves about him and says that he's very price-competitive with online shops (plus he doesn't charge an arm and a leg to drill an Internet ball). So I'm gonna give him a shot.
But really, why should I go try ordering from BP.com or Bowling.com or one of the other online shops when Buddies has done right by me in the past? If they offer something really competitive and hard to pass up, I may do that, but if they are merely matching or approaching what Buddies offers, why should I change?
Note that this applies not just to Buddies but to any shop of any kind. Why try something different (when the end product, the ball, is going to be the same regardless) when you have something that works and the "different" doesn't have any compelling reasons to switch? That's not the same as saying "Why not try Brunswick, even though Track is working for you?", since the end-products are not the same.
SH
Post by: bamaster on March 22, 2005, 02:54:46 PM
quote:
Yes it was 904 shipped. Well I have more than made up for robbing him i am sure of that and we are very good friends. Robbing him or not he matched it and he did what he had to get the business. Are you saying you wouldn't have done the same if one of your local customers proposed this to you?
It makes sense that he hooked you up if you two are very good friends. That's called a favor... not standard business practice.
I'm not willing to break even for any customer, other than family perhaps. I would hope folks that respected me and my efforts wouldn't try to nickel and dime me. I have had many freinds order from me, and not a single one of them asked for a break of any kind. *knocks on wood*
I congratulate you on your excellent purchase, but I hope you don't think less of Buddies for not giving away free products.
Tony
Post by: JPRLane1 on March 22, 2005, 03:01:39 PM
I understand your saying you couldn't match their low prices and throw in something free, but put yourself in their shoes. If you were buddies and I was willing to purchase at your regualr adverstised price, would you not offer me sometihng free to sweeten the deal. You would not be losing any profits on each ball if your buddies becuase you are meeeting your advertised prices.
Also I didn't call my local guy expecting him to match prices I was amazed he did so. I simply told him what I needed and what I could get it for online. I had all intentions of still buying from buddies as I assumed it would still be my best bet freebies or not. Leon (my local guy)is my good friend but even I know he is too cheap to break even so I know he is making enough for it to be worth his while.
The bottom line here and I guess my ultimate point is he is a better business man than buddies in my opinion. Thats what it boils down to in a nutshell who will do more for their customer.
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There is only one Lane#1. Know it, Live it, Throw it or Get Beat by IT! Leader & Founder of Fellowship of the Saws! Respect us or get left in our Saw Dust!Honorary member of the almighty NATION!Edited on 3/22/2005 4:01 PM
Post by: bamaster on March 22, 2005, 03:02:27 PM
Tony
Post by: JPRLane1 on March 22, 2005, 03:12:00 PM
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There is only one Lane#1. Know it, Live it, Throw it or Get Beat by IT! Leader & Founder of Fellowship of the Saws! Respect us or get left in our Saw Dust!Honorary member of the almighty NATION!
Post by: JPRLane1 on March 22, 2005, 03:14:18 PM
quote:
triggerman, your markup assumptions are WAY off. I use the same distributors as Buddies and I know what the prices are. Internet pricing is almost always lower than it is for pro shops. JPR's guy doesn't get the same pricing as Buddies. They pay more for their balls and he ate the tax. .
Tony
But the real question is do you buy as many balls as buddies and do you know what their prices are???? To that I say probably not.
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There is only one Lane#1. Know it, Live it, Throw it or Get Beat by IT! Leader & Founder of Fellowship of the Saws! Respect us or get left in our Saw Dust!Honorary member of the almighty NATION!
Post by: JPRLane1 on March 22, 2005, 03:15:52 PM
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There is only one Lane#1. Know it, Live it, Throw it or Get Beat by IT! Leader & Founder of Fellowship of the Saws! Respect us or get left in our Saw Dust!Honorary member of the almighty NATION!
Post by: bamaster on March 22, 2005, 03:18:40 PM
JPR, if you were a long time customer and asked for a little something for a large order... without asking for reduced pricing... then yes I probably would do something. Basically, it would be selling one ball at cost to you... one out of eight ain't bad. Towels are cheap for me.... I have over 100 with Dyno-thane on them! Haha!
Tony
Post by: DanH78 on March 22, 2005, 03:20:58 PM
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The clock on the wall says 3 O'Clock...last call...for Alcohol!
"I love a martini -- but two at the most. Three I’m under the table; Four, I’m under the host." Dorothy Parker
Post by: bamaster on March 22, 2005, 03:27:35 PM
quote:
Really Tony, why would an internet shop selling the same as a land locked site get a better deal? I am not in the business but find that hard to believe, since NO ball company sells directly to a shop unless they are willing to stock a gazillion balls, you are all ordering from a distributor correct?
All distributors have some sort of tiered pricing. That's no secret, all distributors do this. Typically, Internet retailers get different terms because of the volume they do. Very few pro shops move more product than a decent online store. Simple, really.
Tony
Post by: bamaster on March 22, 2005, 03:29:29 PM
quote:
But the real question is do you buy as many balls as buddies and do you know what their prices are???? To that I say probably not.
You know what they say when you "assume".
Tony
Post by: Rick Wunder on March 23, 2005, 09:11:52 AM
quote:
. . . Did I miss something or is it still not in a business owners best interest to please the customer.
. . .
The bottom line here and I guess my ultimate point is he is a better business man than buddies in my opinion. Thats what it boils down to in a nutshell who will do more for their customer.
A business owner is in business for one thing - to put food on the table and a roof overhead. If the business owner is losing money to please the customer, then it is probably not in his best interest. THAT's what it boils down to in a nutshell.
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RW (THB)
Post by: shelley on March 23, 2005, 09:36:27 AM
quote:
A business owner is in business for one thing - to put food on the table and a roof overhead. If the business owner is losing money to please the customer, then it is probably not in his best interest. THAT's what it boils down to in a nutshell.
I have a hard time believing that Buddies would have lost money on that deal. A $5 towel (which they probably pay even less for) would more likely mean that they make $95 profit instead of $100 than that they would lose $5 instead of breaking even. There's a difference between making less money and losing money, in my mind. Buddies, as a result, didn't make ANY money on that deal. I'd rather make a little bit less than none at all.
Hell, for the number of people that order that many balls at once, they could probably afford to throw in a free towel with each order. Buy 8 or more balls, get a free towel. Buy 7 balls and get squat. Maybe they don't have to state that last part.
Filling more of those large orders may help them get further price breaks from their distributor, that may increase profits in the long run.SH
Post by: JPRLane1 on March 23, 2005, 11:22:54 AM
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There is only one Lane#1. Know it, Live it, Throw it or Get Beat by IT! Leader & Founder of Fellowship of the Saws! Respect us or get left in our Saw Dust!Honorary member of the almighty NATION!
Post by: CharlieBrown on March 23, 2005, 01:04:02 PM
And as JPRLane1 mentioned, he'd buy from them again in the future.
Good reputation is the main thing I guess, and Buddies just happen to have a good rep and a big following at this forum.
As for me, well I have purchased form Buddies and Tony 'bamaster' before, as well as some from ebays, and all of them were excellent experiences.
And speaking of 'bamaster', allow me to go off-topic for a while...... he's a top class e-tailer, he managed to find me two hard-to-get NIB bowling balls, with the exact spec, AND I was being very extremely picky with the ball spec as well!
The whole deal was done though PMs and email, and he found the balls for me even before I paid him..... even though he knew nothing about me at the time.
He also did me a huge favor, one that I'd rather not mention at a public forum, but let's just say he saved me some extra $$$. And that to me, was definitely a good online purchase experience.
BTW Tony, the balls you sent me, still No Holes!!!
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The Angry Bowler
Post by: seadrive on March 23, 2005, 01:14:37 PM
Buddies has great prices, an outstanding reputation for customer service, and they've been in the game from the beginning.
At the risk of waking a sleeping bear known as "the Mezz", it's hard for a new shop to compete against the established players, but I think it can be done.
You just have to work twice as hard as the other guys.
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seadrive
Cogito ergo bowl
Post by: DonSVO on March 23, 2005, 02:47:45 PM
i think you get a 'group effect' going in the case of Buddies... everyone uses them and raves about the goodness. so lets say Buyer D reads about some Seller, and in this post buyers A,B, and C harp on how good the deal was. Buyer D reads it and says, 'well damn, they must be good!' and also purchases from the Seller. Buyer D then posts up about how good it was... basically it's a chain of self-gratification on the buyer's point: he feels "in the know", he feels like he is part of the guys helping the seller out, and he gets to crow about buying from "Mr. Badass Ball Seller", whomever that may be. there's nothing wrong with it, but i deal with it alot, especially on message boards.
Hell, even in the alleys: you get one of the more popular bowlers to say "yea i went to so-N-so's Pro Shop. he hooked me up and man... he knows his stuff..." all the sudden everyone who at LEAST appreciates this person's style/skill thinks, 'wow. they MUST know their sh!t if So-N-So is using them!' word-of-mouth from a VERY believeable source: unlike the PBA guys, you bowl next to So-N-So last week and his 768 series stomped a new turd-cutter into your team's pride. he IS good.
so all retailers need more than just good service: they should have a good slid following of skilled bowlers who popularize their equipment. think of all the big-name guys on here that you always see post good info, or have verifiable solid averages: if you get a thread of those guys babbling about how AMAZING some seller is... you have ALOT of good feedback with only half a percent of the board even saying anything. but it goes a long way: people naturally polarize themselves with the elitists... so their recommendations draw customers. simple business.
why do you think there are Ads on TV with sports stars? same affect, oly in our smaller bowling-ball-reviews community it is that much more effective.
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funniest thing i have ever read on here:
originally posted by Bjaardker, about if brunswick sells 2nds/blems:
Yeah, they're called Lane #1s....
JUST KIDDING!!!