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Author Topic: Along the lines of Baggin'  (Read 882 times)

The Hose

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Along the lines of Baggin'
« on: September 16, 2004, 02:31:51 AM »
Is there a place that a tournament director can look up to find bowlers 'tournament averages'?

I continue to hear people in my town complain about some people who they say are baggers.  A husband and wife have been bowling for several years and they bowl 3 or 4 nights a week and bowl on the weekends.  They both have numerous balls and seem to know what they are doing with a bowling ball.  However, the guys average has gone down every year for the past 3 year and he's booking about 180 on an easy house shot.  She books around 150 to 160.  He's had the front 11 before and can pop off some big games.  Just last night he had the first 6 or 7 before missing and shooting 267 the first game.  I don't thing he shot 170 the next two games.  I was told that his wife shot a 730 a few weeks ago.

The wife bowls doubles with another girl who is also accused of being a bagger.  I don't know these people very well nor does it affect me one way or the other but the bagging question is always brought up when someone talks about these people.

Now my question:  When these people go to tournaments and are asked about reporting winning, what if they are not honest?  If people are baggers, do you really think they'd be honest about reporting their earning?  NO!
Does the ABC have a Data base where a tournament director could pull up their info and see that they average 210 in tournaments but book 160?
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seadrive

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Re: Along the lines of Baggin'
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2004, 10:50:05 AM »
Hose, I don't think they do.  That was part of SrKegler's letter to the USBC,  concerning things they could/should do to get people more involved in the game again.
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scotts33

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Re: Along the lines of Baggin'
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2004, 10:51:03 AM »
Hose--It sounds like this local bagger couple can't shoot spares if they can pop off big games on a THS doesn't mean much and then miss spare after spare.  

What kind of tournaments do they enter?  In my area people that are known baggers are always rerated before they bowl.  If they don't like it tuff luck don't bowl.  I've seen this a number of times over the past few years.

Also as you know Hose just cuz players bring multiple balls sure doesn't mean they know anything about using them on the correct condition.  

To answer your question from what I know an ABC/WIBC sancitoned tournament must file a document with the ABC/WIBC giving them the prize list and scores shot along with honor scores.  

If that information is available to all tournament directors I do not know but it should be.  

Scott
Scott

SrKegler

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Re: Along the lines of Baggin'
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2004, 11:08:14 AM »
There’s no place to find out that information.  I just sent a letter off to ABC asking if that information could be included in the records that show up on Bowl.com.  

Basically the answer I got was that it would be too expensive for the software and manhours required to maintain it.

I think I'll start a post of my "Pet Peeves" against the ABC.
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Pinbuster

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Re: Along the lines of Baggin'
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2004, 11:10:05 AM »
I have been a party to a re-rating.

They had started a tournament here and were guaranteeing $5000 first place for the team event. My little weenie scratch team bowled in it and shot huge for us around 3450 scratch and about 3500 handicap. We beat all the other teams entered by over a hundred pins except for one team that ended up beating us by close to 200 sticks with 300 pins handicap.

We didn’t think anything about it but after the tournament the tournament director re-rated the other team. Seems they leaved in a town near the border with another state. Their averages in Kansas were used but their other state averages were about 20 pins a man higher.

After the re-rating we ended up winning and they were second.

Sad ending though, the tournament died after about 3 years. But at least they tried to run a clean tournament.

scotts33

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Re: Along the lines of Baggin'
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2004, 11:27:34 AM »
quote:
Ask any tourney director to be honest and he/she will probably tell you that they know there are things they could do in order to have a more honest tourney, but prefer to look the other way in order to have enough people show up to make the tourney profitable.
 


Not so in my area 'Bones.  There is a group of known baggers from Milwaukee <no NOT El-Duce > that bowl with plastic and establish 170 some averages and then show up at hdcp. tourneys thru out So. WI & No. IL with 6 balls in hand to win hdcp. tourneys.  

A local tournament that was NOT sanctioned allowed them to bowl but in their rules they stated that they had to report winnings which of course they didn't.  Then, they won the tournament about $5000.  The tournament director would not pay them and awarded it to the second place team.  It went to county court and judge agreed with the TD and made the baggers pay the court costs.  Tournament was out the lawyers fees.  If it would have been a sanctioned tournament....they would have no recourse but to pay the baggers first place.

TD's in my area of any of the larger hdcp. tournament connect with each other and let each other know who is baggin' and who they re-rate.  

Scott
Scott

9andaWiggle

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Re: Along the lines of Baggin'
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2004, 01:04:50 PM »
quote:
Ask any tourney director to be honest and he/she will probably tell you that they know there are things they could do in order to have a more honest tourney, but prefer to look the other way in order to have enough people show up to make the tourney profitable.


I don't know 'Bones... if the Tournament Directors had access to a system where they could prove sandbagging, or at least justify a rerate, I think that trend would change.  As it is now, without easy access to any documentation it is all speculation at best.

About letting baggers in just to fill the field, I personally think (but cannot prove this) that more people would start bowling tourneys again if they saw the habitual sandbaggers rerated or their entries refused.  Ask most bowlers and they'll probably tell you that in a handicap tourney, they don't stand an honest chance to win anything.  Make it fair, and people would probably come back.

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Doc Hollywood

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Re: Along the lines of Baggin'
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2004, 04:52:31 PM »
Hose - Talk to tenpinspro (Rick)  He runs a tournament and he often rerates players or only let them bowl in a tournament if they agree to a certain average.  The Peach being one of them.  

If more tournament directors just talk amongst themselves and keep the stats then they could be rerated or just told to bowl elsewhere.


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