Author Topic: what would you do 2.. (Read 7121 times)

J_w73 · « **on:** March 04, 2009, 05:08:03 AM »

didn't want to hijack drilllords thread so I started my own..
I was in a similar situation when a guy threw a 300 and when his ball struck he fell to his knees and slammed his elbows/arms onto the approach in celebration.. his elbows where not over the line but his hands/wrists were definately over the line but from my angle I could not tell if they touched the approach...since I wasn't completely positive they touched the approach I didn't bring it up..
If I did see them hit the approach I'm not sure what I would have done. That would be the ultimate D*ck move to take away someones 300 but a rule is a rule.. I think I would have said something.
What would you do??
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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

demo40 · « **Reply #46 on:** March 06, 2009, 11:51:59 AM »

Who cares. Half the places I bowl
anymore don't even turn on the foul
lights. It seems to me that too many
people on here care more about the
rules than going out and having fun
bowling. I for one and glad that I
do not bowl with anyone that so much
about the rules or how well they are
bowling, that they cannot have a good
time. I would like to see some of you
bowl where I do. You would here people
on one end of the house yelling and
making fun on someone on another team
at the other end of the house 8 lanes
away.

JessN16 · « **Reply #47 on:** March 06, 2009, 11:54:32 AM »

quote:

sorry about that.. that sucks..

but thank you..

you answered the question for everyone here.

FOUL..
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

No, he did NOT answer it for everyone here.

You did yesterday when you posted the USBC's response saying the situation depended on many factors and there was nothing in the rulebook one way or the other, specifically.

If that had been me and the league secretary had done that, I would have called a league meeting and straightened things out in that meeting with all the officers. The league secretary is but one officer and he can't act unilaterally on such matters without the other officers' consent, perhaps even the association's consent.

Jess

9andaWiggle · « **Reply #48 on:** March 06, 2009, 12:12:27 PM »

quote:
I think I understand now..

anger - foul
celebration - no foul

If he's tearing the place up, kicking the ball returns, foul lights, punching the telescoring monitors, pulling the .45's out of his holsters and blasting holes in the ceiling or what not, then sure. But I've never seen anyone celebrate a momentous achievement in bowling that way.

I guess I don't understand what would make you feel compelled to call a foul in that situation? Are you really that bitter with life that you would actually do this to purposely kick someone in the nuts and strip away their achievement/happiness over something so trivial? If it's someone that has done the same to you in the past, that's different. I understand that - what goes around comes around. But if it's just a fellow bowler enjoying a great personal achievement, WHY?

--------------------
9~

Internet Tough Guy

Cyberspace Sheep Lover

J_w73 · « **Reply #49 on:** March 06, 2009, 12:15:08 PM »

quote:
quote:

sorry about that.. that sucks..

but thank you..

you answered the question for everyone here.

FOUL..
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

No, he did NOT answer it for everyone here.

You did yesterday when you posted the USBC's response saying the situation depended on many factors and there was nothing in the rulebook one way or the other, specifically.

If that had been me and the league secretary had done that, I would have called a league meeting and straightened things out in that meeting with all the officers. The league secretary is but one officer and he can't act unilaterally on such matters without the other officers' consent, perhaps even the association's consent.

Jess

I agree.. when he said that the guy protested I was assuming he went through all of the necessary chains with the association and the USBC and the final ruling was that he fouled. I guess I shouldn't have assumed that.
I would like to hear from him who made or how the final ruling came about.

--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

Buzzhead · « **Reply #50 on:** March 06, 2009, 12:21:59 PM »

ANYONE that calls the original foul in question on me, IF I ever happen to shoot 300- 800, had better find a way to get out of the bowling alley without using an exit, a way to get home without using his car and a way to get in his house without using a door...... because I would be right up his Arse kickin the livin F*(#& out of him.....
--------------------
FAILURE IS FEEDBACK. AND FEEDBACK IS THE BREAKFAST OF CHAMPIONS THAT GOT DIGESTED!

Ten pin?

?? Where?? I throw a BUZZSAW there is NUTTIN left on the deck...

Proud MEMBER of the FOS!!
Member of the FOS, if there happens to be a 9 pin standing just toss a saw and cut it down~~!

J_w73 · « **Reply #51 on:** March 06, 2009, 12:22:10 PM »

quote:
quote:
I think I understand now..

anger - foul
celebration - no foul

If he's tearing the place up, kicking the ball returns, foul lights, punching the telescoring monitors, pulling the .45's out of his holsters and blasting holes in the ceiling or what not, then sure. But I've never seen anyone celebrate a momentous achievement in bowling that way.

I guess I don't understand what would make you feel compelled to call a foul in that situation? Are you really that bitter with life that you would actually do this to purposely kick someone in the nuts and strip away their achievement/happiness over something so trivial? If it's someone that has done the same to you in the past, that's different. I understand that - what goes around comes around. But if it's just a fellow bowler enjoying a great personal achievement, WHY?

--------------------
9~

Internet Tough Guy

Cyberspace Sheep Lover

so if the guy is a d*ck then it should be called on him..?

I don't like basing things on if the guy had it coming to him..

this guy is a nice guy..
and if this nice guy did touch the lane and did foul.. I would probably just go over to him and say congratulations and let him know to stay away from the line next time he celebrates. Would I be wrong in not calling the foul? ... yes.. but I don't think I would want to strip the guys occasion from him.. but there would be an asterisk on it in my eyes.

What you would do or not do is one question.
Whether it is indeed a foul or not is another.

They are two seperate things.
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

Edited on 3/6/2009 1:25 PM

Edited on 3/6/2009 1:26 PM

9andaWiggle · « **Reply #52 on:** March 06, 2009, 12:36:16 PM »

Maybe I'm seeing it differently because in my eyes, the shot is over. If he does a break-dance on the arrows, it does not lessen the shot he made nor the achievement in my eyes. It makes him look like a fool for break-dancing at the arrows, but in regards to the rules it wouldn't be an issue with me. He made the shot, it was legit.

As for the "if the guy is a jerk", well, I'm fickle about that. For a nice guy, no call. Heck, even for a guy I thought was an a-hole, I'd probably let it slide. But if I'd seen the guy nitpick everyone else for stupid crap like that (especially if he had done it to me) I'd call it on that guy. Oh yeah, he's definitely getting a taste of his own medicine!

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9~

Internet Tough Guy

Cyberspace Sheep Lover

Dan Belcher · « **Reply #53 on:** March 06, 2009, 12:39:15 PM »

I have one question, J_w73. Does the intent of the rule mean nothing to you??? The entire purpose of the foul line rule is to keep you from 1) going too close to the pins when delivering the ball, and 2) creating a dangerous situation by going into the oil and possibly falling and hurting yourself and/or the lanes. There's following the rules, and then there's being a dick. For something like this, you're crossing the line (sorry, had to use that pun there) when you call someone for fouling because of something that does NOT affect their delivery of the ball or someone else's delivery of the ball in any way, shape, or form. This is the definition of a non-issue in my opinion, and I can't believe the thought even crossed your mind of calling someone on this. I'll laugh if someone calls you out on some incredibly nit-picky interpretation of the rules and invalidates your next honor score.

J_w73 · « **Reply #54 on:** March 06, 2009, 01:00:21 PM »

quote:
I have one question, J_w73. Does the intent of the rule mean nothing to you??? The entire purpose of the foul line rule is to keep you from 1) going too close to the pins when delivering the ball, and 2) creating a dangerous situation by going into the oil and possibly falling and hurting yourself and/or the lanes. There's following the rules, and then there's being a dick. For something like this, you're crossing the line (sorry, had to use that pun there) when you call someone for fouling because of something that does NOT affect their delivery of the ball or someone else's delivery of the ball in any way, shape, or form. This is the definition of a non-issue in my opinion, and I can't believe the thought even crossed your mind of calling someone on this. I'll laugh if someone calls you out on some incredibly nit-picky interpretation of the rules and invalidates your next honor score.

I understand what you are saying.. and it has happened to me. I have lost games, points , and league championships because people wanted to be nitpicky and use the RULES in a shady way to make sure they won. Maybe the problem is that the way the rule is allows for ambiguity.
I don't want to bring more "what if" scenarios into this but I think this is valid and would like your opinion.
An anchor bowler that is in control of his body after he gets a 9 count and is mad he left a ringing 10 pin kicks the endcap past the foul line . A foul is called and they lose the game.
Should that be a foul?? I would think in your "spirit of the rule" explanation the answer would be no.
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

Dan Belcher · « **Reply #55 on:** March 06, 2009, 01:05:45 PM »

I would fit that under the intentional foul part of the rulebook -- he meant to foul, which is a world of difference from somebody barely going over the foul line by accident while celebrating. (And more importantly, I would expect the center to do something about him intentionally damaging their equipment, making him pay for the repairs would be a good deterrent to keep him from doing that again!) You can't accomodate every possible exception in the rulebook, you have to use common sense. Does NOBODY have common sense anymore?

J_w73 · « **Reply #56 on:** March 06, 2009, 01:22:08 PM »

quote:
I would fit that under the intentional foul part of the rulebook -- he meant to foul, which is a world of difference from somebody barely going over the foul line by accident while celebrating. (And more importantly, I would expect the center to do something about him intentionally damaging their equipment, making him pay for the repairs would be a good deterrent to keep him from doing that again!) You can't accomodate every possible exception in the rulebook, you have to use common sense. Does NOBODY have common sense anymore?

the intentional foul part in the rulebook has to do with fouling so that you gain an advantage. He was not attempting to foul he was just kicking his foot into the top of the endcap... I don't condone kicking or hitting any equipment but he did not kick it hard enough to cause any damage... he more kicked his foot and grazed across the edge and top of it..contact.

it just seems like people want to say it is a foul or not a foul based on whether or not the guy is a nice guy or like my previous post
anger -foul
celebration - no foul
I don't think you can make a difference between the two like that.. either they are both fouls.. or both are not fouls....
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

Edited on 3/6/2009 2:23 PM

Edited on 3/6/2009 2:25 PM

Dan Belcher · « **Reply #57 on:** March 06, 2009, 01:32:49 PM »

quote:
I don't think you can make a difference between the two like that.. either they are both fouls.. or both are not fouls....

And I think you SHOULD be able to interpret situations differently even though it's not expressly written in the rulebook. Are you a computer? Do you lack the ability to make subjective calls? Not everything in sports has to be objective. The flopping call in the NBA is subjective, for example. Did Manu Ginobili really lose his balance because he got hit hard by someone driving to the hoop, or did he intentionally exaggerate it to attempt to draw an offensive foul despite there being just casual contact? You have to use your common sense when interpreting rules. They can't write every possible exception into the rulebook, they expect you to be thoughtful enough to decide for yourself if something applies to the situation or not.

Let me put it this way -- if someone slapped the approach after shooting a 300 on TV in the championship match of a PBA event, and his fingers went over the foul line, do you really think the PBA would call it a foul and take the 300 away? I HIGHLY doubt it. (Though I should doubt anybody would really do it because it's a goofy azz way to celebrate!)

9andaWiggle · « **Reply #58 on:** March 06, 2009, 01:37:36 PM »

You know, what I like about J_w73's argument is that it does make you think about the anger vs. celebration angle. Both shots are clearly completed, so the foul is not going to affect the outcome of the shot itself. However, the kicking of the foul light could more easily be considered an intentional foul, especially in the case of a 10 pin (since everybody seems to fear missing it and may think sparing a full rack to be easier).

I think more people side with ruling that a foul more as a way to punish bad behavior/poor sportsmanship than anything else. Not many want to strip the "good guy" of an honor score, but more would be willing to take it away from a jerk (again, to punish bad behavior/poor sportsmanship).
--------------------
9~

Internet Tough Guy

Cyberspace Sheep Lover

J_w73 · « **Reply #59 on:** March 06, 2009, 01:40:37 PM »

quote:
quote:
I don't think you can make a difference between the two like that.. either they are both fouls.. or both are not fouls....
And I think you SHOULD be able to interpret situations differently even though it's not expressly written in the rulebook. Are you a computer? Do you lack the ability to make subjective calls? Not everything in sports has to be objective. The flopping call in the NBA is subjective, for example. Did Manu Ginobili really lose his balance because he got hit hard by someone driving to the hoop, or did he intentionally exaggerate it to attempt to draw an offensive foul despite there being just casual contact? You have to use your common sense when interpreting rules. They can't write every possible exception into the rulebook, they expect you to be thoughtful enough to decide for yourself if something applies to the situation or not.

Let me put it this way -- if someone slapped the approach after shooting a 300 on TV in the championship match of a PBA event, and his fingers went over the foul line, do you really think the PBA would call it a foul and take the 300 away? I HIGHLY doubt it. (Though I should doubt anybody would really do it because it's a goofy azz way to celebrate!)

I would 100% guarantee that they would call a foul and take away the 300.
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

Dan Belcher · « **Reply #60 on:** March 06, 2009, 01:41:23 PM »

quote:
quote:
quote:
I don't think you can make a difference between the two like that.. either they are both fouls.. or both are not fouls....
And I think you SHOULD be able to interpret situations differently even though it's not expressly written in the rulebook. Are you a computer? Do you lack the ability to make subjective calls? Not everything in sports has to be objective. The flopping call in the NBA is subjective, for example. Did Manu Ginobili really lose his balance because he got hit hard by someone driving to the hoop, or did he intentionally exaggerate it to attempt to draw an offensive foul despite there being just casual contact? You have to use your common sense when interpreting rules. They can't write every possible exception into the rulebook, they expect you to be thoughtful enough to decide for yourself if something applies to the situation or not.

Let me put it this way -- if someone slapped the approach after shooting a 300 on TV in the championship match of a PBA event, and his fingers went over the foul line, do you really think the PBA would call it a foul and take the 300 away? I HIGHLY doubt it. (Though I should doubt anybody would really do it because it's a goofy azz way to celebrate!)

I would 100% guarantee that they would call a foul and take away the 300.
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

Really? I think you would be the only person who would even notice his hand went over the line doing it. Nobody else would even notice, much less care!!

Author Topic: what would you do 2.. (Read 7121 times)

J_w73

what would you do 2..

demo40

Re: what would you do 2..

JessN16

Re: what would you do 2..

9andaWiggle

Re: what would you do 2..

J_w73

Re: what would you do 2..

Buzzhead

Re: what would you do 2..

J_w73

Re: what would you do 2..

9andaWiggle

Re: what would you do 2..

Dan Belcher

Re: what would you do 2..

J_w73

Re: what would you do 2..

Dan Belcher

Re: what would you do 2..

J_w73

Re: what would you do 2..

Dan Belcher

Re: what would you do 2..

9andaWiggle

Re: what would you do 2..

J_w73

Re: what would you do 2..

Dan Belcher

Re: what would you do 2..