Author Topic: When do we reach TOO MUCH? (Read 10283 times)

JOE FALCO · « **on:** January 05, 2013, 10:36:56 PM »

Undrilled bowling balls:
Storm Lucid: $159.95
DV8 Nightmare: $139.95
Brunswick Aura: $154.95
Motive Primal Scream: $148.99
Hammer Taboo: $164.95
Roto Grip Defiant: $154.95

Russell · « **Reply #16 on:** January 06, 2013, 12:21:42 PM »

Quote from: JOE FALCO on January 06, 2013, 10:34:43 AM

OK relating it to cost of living tends I see the point. let's see if we can look at it from a different view.
Charlie is looking to get into bowling (something I think we are trying to do .. get new people into bowling). He bowls and feels I want to do this! He buys a ball (lets say the average ball cost him $200). He bowls for a couple of weeks and feels he can do this!
He enters a tournament and finds the ball didn't work. He hears about Balls working on certain conditions and three months into it he buys a ball for A different condition (another $200). Opps now he finds shoe rental is expensive so he buys shoes reasonable $100 (yes there are much cheaper but he's in for the long run). Now Charlie has two balls guess he'll need a two ball bag .. reasonable $100. Having trouble making end pin spares .. advised to get a spare ball .. reasonable $150 ..
Looks like Charlie's in for $750 ..
When I say balls are priced out of line this is what I'm thinking .. but then I'm not considering the cost of living .. how many AVERAGE people have that much disposable income to put into leisure sports? Perhaps we are not trying to lure the AVERAGE person but only the ABOVE AVERAGE .. I guess there's plenty of THEM!

Please explain where this is that different than 20 years ago? Bowling balls still cost close to $200, tournaments weren't cheap...good shoes ran $100+....? If anything it's getting more affordable as the dollar buys a lot more if the price remains the same over time. $200 in 1992 is a lot more than $240 today.

hhhbs1 · « **Reply #17 on:** January 06, 2013, 12:43:01 PM »

I have to agree with Russell. If anything bowling is more affordable today then 15 years ago. There are not many things you can buy today for the same price you could 15 years ago. The only thing that has really gone up in bowling is price per game. Also the avg bowler starting out is only going to buy one ball and probably a pair of shoes. Another point is most bowlers just getting into bowling is not going to buy on the high end to get started. They will probably buy a ball more in the 150 to 180 range and buy a 50 or 60 dollar pair of shoes.

JOE FALCO · « **Reply #18 on:** January 06, 2013, 02:00:57 PM »

Getting pro shop owners involved in this is like trying to tell Union men that their Union is asking for too much.

If the average bowling ball cost $200 20 years ago .. I must have slept through that period .. there may have been one ball that was priced that high delivered .. today 90% of them cost that much delivered.

I give up again .. responders are all correct .. the $200 bowlers are paying for today's equipment is totally justified. Thanks for your thoughts!

J_Mac · « **Reply #19 on:** January 06, 2013, 02:08:05 PM »

Quote from: JOE FALCO on January 06, 2013, 02:00:57 PM

Getting pro shop owners involved in this is like trying to tell Union men that their Union is asking for too much.

If the average bowling ball cost $200 20 years ago .. I must have slept through that period .. there may have been one ball that was priced that high delivered .. today 90% of them cost that much delivered.

I give up again .. responders are all correct .. the $200 bowlers are paying for today's equipment is totally justified. Thanks for your thoughts!

Joe... Yet again it seems you are comparing apples to oranges. The prices you listed are clearly internet prices for undrilled balls. The way I've read this post, the individuals talking about $200 balls are referring to the drilled cost of equipment at a local, brick and mortar, pro shop.

Russell · « **Reply #20 on:** January 06, 2013, 02:31:07 PM »

Joe I started bowling in 1997, and at that time the Brunswick Danger Zone was $189.99 drilled. That was 15 years ago, and now a high end ball tends to run about $219.99 drilled on average. If you want to be a whiny little brat and shoot the messenger because your post got ransacked that's fine....but let's stick with the facts.

Show me another industry where the price of high end goods has increased by 15% over 15 years.....?

rockerbowler18 · « **Reply #21 on:** January 06, 2013, 03:35:22 PM »

Hey look, it's Joe complaining about the price of balls again!! Hi Joe!!!

I'd tell you to build a time machine so you could go back to the times when bowling was super inexpensive by your standards, but you'd just spend your time on here complaining about the prices of Deloreans, flux capacitors, and uranium ore.

Quote

Charlie is looking to get into bowling (something I think we are trying to do .. get new people into bowling). He bowls and feels I want to do this! He buys a ball (lets say the average ball cost him $200). He bowls for a couple of weeks and feels he can do this!
He enters a tournament and finds the ball didn't work. He hears about Balls working on certain conditions and three months into it he buys a ball for A different condition (another $200). Opps now he finds shoe rental is expensive so he buys shoes reasonable $100 (yes there are much cheaper but he's in for the long run). Now Charlie has two balls guess he'll need a two ball bag .. reasonable $100. Having trouble making end pin spares .. advised to get a spare ball .. reasonable $150 ..
Looks like Charlie's in for $750 ..

1. Here's a more realistic scenario:
Charlie is looking into getting into bowling. He buys a simple ball, bag, and shoes package because he's a beginner, running him about $180 for a Cyclone, bowling shoes, and a 1 ball bag. He enters a tournament and struggles.

Luckily, he didn't enter bowling all by himself - the reason he started bowling is he had a friend who was into it. That friend happens to have a bowling ball he doesn't use, and sells it to Charlie for $30! Now Charlie has 2 bowling balls.

But he needs a spare ball...so he goes online and finds a brand new one for $40! (what kind of "reasonable" spare ball are you paying $150 for???)

Now that he has 3 balls, he runs out and buys a nice Vise 3 ball tote with shoe compartment for $90. Charlie now has everything you just mentioned, and spent roughly $400.

But, since you're SO insistent, we'll do scenario number 2!
2. Charlie is looking into getting into golf. He golfs and enjoys himself, so he buys a set of irons (oops, $600! http://www.dickssportinggoods.com/product/index.jsp?productId=12479547&ab=TopNav_Golf_MensGolfClubs_IronSets&cp=4413989.4414118), a driver ($300), a putter ($150), a bag ($100), and balls ($40 a box...which he loses in his first couple rounds and has to replace! Oops, $40 more!!)

No worries, says Charlie. That's only $1230! He then decides he struggles with putts, so he goes back and gets a wonderful belly putter!! Uh oh. $150 more!

And you can't forget the shoes!! Can't have Charlie slipping out on the course! Let's get him a decent pair for another $100.

Charlie is ready to play golf at the low low price of roughly $1500!! Twice what you keep complaining about.

Your argument is ridiculous because of the fact that no new bowler is going to run out and buy all that stuff. No new bowler starts with the $200 ball. They start with the Vibes, Scouts, and Cyclones. And even if they DID start with the $200 ball...it's STILL cheaper than golf (the most similar sport).

Joe Cool · « **Reply #22 on:** January 06, 2013, 04:20:16 PM »

Quote from: Russell on January 06, 2013, 12:06:37 PM

Quote from: Joe Cool on January 06, 2013, 11:05:30 AM
The elite bowlers are thriving. They make more than enough money to pay for their new balls (for the few that don't get them for free anyway), their travel expenses (nationals and other tourneys), and so on. The regular casual bowler just shows up to league for fun and many of them use house balls or balls that are several years old and in some cases not even drilled for them. The ones getting squeezed are the ones in the middle class. It's hard to improve and take that next step to get to elite unless you can afford (and have the time for) practice time, lessons, new balls, ball maintenance, etc. In many ways it mirrors society here in the US as a whole.

I'm not knocking the elite - they deserve what they get for putting in the time, effort, and money. I'm just making an observation based on what I've seen. Maybe others are experiencing something different.

I don't know what world you live in...but I have friends on tour that are barely making ends meet. Not sure where the lap of luxury for the good bowlers is....?

It's not on the tour, I can tell you that.

Russell · « **Reply #23 on:** January 06, 2013, 04:34:34 PM »

I'm sure because the guys not on the tour have REAL JOBS..they aren't making gobs of money bowling sweepers during the week.

You know that's what most tour players do too right? They bowl crap on the weekends to supplement their income. Tim Mack circa 2000 is a thing of the past....sorry to disappoint.

kidlost2000 · « **Reply #24 on:** January 06, 2013, 04:44:17 PM »

Charlie over paying isn't the problem with bowling. He can get plenty of bowling balls for most conditions in shop for $150 drilled with inserts. Not to mention the higher end equipment that gets discontinued every two months or an x-out. So $300 for two bowling balls, $75 at most on plastic unless he is getting an OTB or something special, and a three ball bag for $80. Lets go ahead and get some shoes that have adjustable soles for another $80. $535 total.

Now as a beginning bowler I doubt he needs two bowling balls plus a spare ball. His average will reflect that. At any average he is more then ready to compete in any handicap tournament.

His money is better spent on practice, or lesson at improving his spare shooting. That will win him $$$ at tournaments and be the reason his average goes up.

The equipment your having him buy would be the same as a beginning golfer going out to buy higher end equipment because "he is in for the long haul" that isn't needed yet. $300 driver, $700 irons, $200 putter, $90 wedge X 2, $5 a piece golf balls and ect for a 100+ handicap golfer or even a 90+ is not realistic.

Two performance balls or a performance ball and spare ball is plenty. Non adjustable shoes are plenty. Over kill by hype. Doesn't mean it is reality.

Steven · « **Reply #25 on:** January 06, 2013, 05:54:58 PM »

Quote from: Russell on January 06, 2013, 07:47:35 AM

Steven in many cases you're right...but it's unrealistic in any sport to produce products that require as much maintenance as some bowling balls do now. If someone bowls 20 games a week they would be in there having their ball cleaned weekly, and extracting oil once a month. Is this really realistic?

The majority of society won't maintain their cars properly, and we expect them to maintain a toy?

Pointing a finger at bowlers and saying "shame on you" is not the way to keep them interested in our sport.

Russell, my experience is that the better bowlers who legitimately use higher end equipment understand requirements for maintenance. In one camp, you have those who spend the necessary time and keep their stuff going strong. In the other camp, they don't give two hoots and accept the situation for what it is. They throw a ball until they get tired of it, and then move onto the next. I rarely hear anyone moaning about 'ball death'.

Mixed league bowlers (95%+ of the population) shouldn't be using the stuff that's dies due to lack of attention. On THS wet/dry conditions, a lower end pearl will be as effective as anything at the premium level. I have as much fun throwing my Ascent Pearl on walled conditions as anything else in my "ball whore sized" arsenal. It's $100 undrilled, and will last years for a 3-game a week bowler.

As far as keeping bowlers interested, that's where you come in as a proshop owner. First, recommend the right ball for the level of your customer. Again, the right ball for most people isn't going to die in 6 months, even when ignored. Second, when it comes to promoting the sport, you have more power than you think. The biggest league in my house is run/sponsored by the proshop. When newer bowlers come in, he markets his league and offers all kinds of prize fund goodies to keep folks interested. It generates more immediate business for him, and keeps new blood flowing into the future.

Hopefully you'll agree, and Charlest will find this "logical".

Russell · « **Reply #26 on:** January 06, 2013, 06:31:32 PM »

Stephen I'm going to totally disagree....most higher end bowlers don't maintain their equipment. These bowlers are not the ones keeping the game afloat anyways. The real problem is the the masses, many of who need help getting the ball to hook in some houses. Most high end bowlers don't pay much for their equipment anyways, as they are buddies with pro shop owners or operators.

The masses usually pay better attention to their equipment because they don't bowl as much. Higher end bowlers bowl 15-20 games per week and don't feel like spending another couple of hours working on their balls on top of that. The masses only bowl 3-6 games per week and once a month cleaning is no big deal.

If you don't hear people complaining about ball death you're not in the shop very much. The people buying a ball and then seeing the reaction subside in 3 months come in wondering why.

I'm going out on a limb and saying you don't run a shop, and I don't mean that in a condescending way, just that cleaning balls doesn't always work. I've noticed a few covers in particular that no matter how much they get cleaned they are dead in 100 games. The XL base covers from Ebonite (Missions), the Critical Theory cover, the GB10.7 on the Cyclones....there are a few more.

Strapper_Squared · « **Reply #27 on:** January 06, 2013, 06:54:06 PM »

I see it this way... Beginning of season, you sort through last tears equipment, pick the couple you like the most, and sell the others. Depending on the number, you have enough for at least 1 new ball. Buy a couple new balls, spend $300, but cost $200 out of pocket. Christmas time, get the itch again, sell a couple, pickup two new releases... Another $200 out of pocket. And the cycle continues...

I think its pretty reasonable, especially compared to other hobbies....
Easy to spend $500 on a set of golf clubs...plus $60 per round on weekends...

Competitive clay target shooting... $2k to $8k on competitive shotgun, plus $50 per 100 targets. It's not uncommon for 500 target weekends at tournaments.

All perspective.

Scott

DP3 · « **Reply #28 on:** January 06, 2013, 06:54:27 PM »

People who can't afford to stay competitive quit. They don't stick around and cry about the prices of goods in the business like bowling owes them something. Hell, I should know myself. I lost all of my money trying to make a living in the bowling industry, along with a home and 35k sports car. And that's with a college degree and many other talents. I had to quit to persue other avenues in order to get stability in my own life first, and I'll be coming back to the game when I feel financially ready to compete at the level that I want to be at. I've seen hundreds of bowlers, and hundreds better than me that had to do the same thing.

That's a real life scenario, not one made up just to side with a point that I'm trying to make. I'm 100% sure that in your scenario that "charlie bowler" isn't going to miss a rent payment because he needs that new Taboo. Much less to compete in a tournament on the weekend with a $90 entry fee that's paying $800 first place IF enough bowlers show up.

Real life scenarios call for real life decisions. The price of staying competitive isn't why we are losing bowlers. The majority reason we are losing bowlers is everything affecting the average middle class citizen outside of the bowling alley.

Joe Cool · « **Reply #29 on:** January 06, 2013, 06:58:58 PM »

Quote from: Russell on January 06, 2013, 04:34:34 PM

I'm sure because the guys not on the tour have REAL JOBS..they aren't making gobs of money bowling sweepers during the week.

You know that's what most tour players do too right? They bowl crap on the weekends to supplement their income. Tim Mack circa 2000 is a thing of the past....sorry to disappoint.

Who are you disappointing? I never said anything about the tour...you did.

rockerbowler18 · « **Reply #30 on:** January 06, 2013, 07:01:26 PM »

Quote from: DP3 on January 06, 2013, 06:54:27 PM

People who can't afford to stay competitive quit. They don't stick around and cry about the prices of goods in the business like bowling owes them something. Hell, I should know myself. I lost all of my money trying to make a living in the bowling industry, along with a home and 35k sports car. And that's with a college degree and many other talents. I had to quit to persue other avenues in order to get stability in my own life first, and I'll be coming back to the game when I feel financially ready to compete at the level that I want to be at. I've seen hundreds of bowlers, and hundreds better than me that had to do the same thing.

We should start a club.

Didn't lose a car or anything but did quit because it's not fun if I can't afford to compete at the level I want to be at.

Wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth, so the right amount of practice, tournaments, and equipment wasn't an option and won't be until I make more money in a steadier career.

Author Topic: When do we reach TOO MUCH? (Read 10283 times)

JOE FALCO

When do we reach TOO MUCH?

Russell

Re: When do we reach TOO MUCH?

hhhbs1

Re: When do we reach TOO MUCH?

JOE FALCO

Re: When do we reach TOO MUCH?

J_Mac

Re: When do we reach TOO MUCH?

Russell

Re: When do we reach TOO MUCH?

rockerbowler18

Re: When do we reach TOO MUCH?

Joe Cool

Re: When do we reach TOO MUCH?

Russell

Re: When do we reach TOO MUCH?

kidlost2000

Re: When do we reach TOO MUCH?

Steven

Re: When do we reach TOO MUCH?

Russell

Re: When do we reach TOO MUCH?

Strapper_Squared

Re: When do we reach TOO MUCH?

DP3

Re: When do we reach TOO MUCH?

Joe Cool

Re: When do we reach TOO MUCH?

rockerbowler18

Re: When do we reach TOO MUCH?