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Author Topic: Why are some drillers secretive?  (Read 4105 times)

FBM357

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Why are some drillers secretive?
« on: October 10, 2004, 04:37:33 PM »
One would honestly think a driller would benefit from knowing the specs of a bowler.  He'd also benefit from the bowler being knowledgeable about himself as well.  Reason for my question is this, I questioned my driller, whom I never had a problem, concerning how I want my Nemesis drilled.  Of course, the first thing he said was "how do you want the ball to react?"   After a brief discussion, I asked more questions (i.e. PAP, axis tilt, etc.) soon after, to my surprise, I was met with "half" answers.  I know he was busy et al, but it really appeared as though he does the bulk of his work drilling balls according to the way people want them to react instead of being questioned about their specs.  Is it a matter of insecurity?  One would think a bowler KNOWING his/her own game would make matters a bit easier, no?

What's your relationship like with your driller?

Vernon
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Strike300

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Re: Why are some drillers secretive?
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2004, 01:02:15 AM »
Maybe he didn't know the full answer to your question. So what if he was busy. Take care of me fully or lose my business. My driller will go to any extent to fully help me. He knows every customer counts and that a Pro-shop is not necessarily a profitable business.
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tenpinspro

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Re: Why are some drillers secretive?
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2004, 07:41:02 AM »
shhh...I know but don't tell anybody.

Insecurity, lack of knowledge, ego, rudeness, lack of concern, want more?....

Rick
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Doc Hollywood

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Re: Why are some drillers secretive?
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2004, 10:11:57 AM »
Hmmmmmmmmm buy a drill press and go into business.  Isn't that what Kmart did.  Then someone got the idea that if they did it in a bowling alley they would get more business.  

The ones who tend to improve and stay up with the times are the ones that go to the drilling seminars put on by the ball manufacturers.  However sometimes the drillers have that deer in the headlight look.  "Did you get what the man was talking about Vern?"  I know because I have been to some of those seminars.  I remember when the Phantom came out and everybody was thinking "You can drill a ball differently besides over the label?  

The profit margins are the greatest for the newbie plastic bowlers where there is minimal effort needed to get a decent profit.  Just punch the ball label get tehm shoes and a bag and then ask will that be cash or credit.  Those that need more time to lay out something specific takes away the profit margin in some cases.

I remember spending time in the pro shop and educating bowlers about dfferent drilling patterns.

I am sure if someone wanted to educate bowlers they could charge minimally for a class and then let them apply it to the next ball purchase.  Or just charge more to spend the time to drill.  i.e. simple drill $,  Specialized drill $$$

Educate bowlers and you can get them to spend more money.
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FBM357

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Re: Why are some drillers secretive?
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2004, 10:20:36 AM »
Rick,

Yeah, you and I discussed this the other day when after I had my Nemesis drilled.  Though the ball does exactly what I want (strong continuous controlled arc), the driller failed to completely answer my other questions.  I figure the better one understand his/her game & equipment, the more knowledge can be shared between bowler and driller.  Like having 2 people discussing the same math problem, even though both may have the correct results, the method may be different

Hmm, guess the search continues.......

V

quote:
shhh...I know but don't tell anybody.

Insecurity, lack of knowledge, ego, rudeness, lack of concern, want more?....

Rick

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Caring people make a difference!!!  All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing
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MSC2471

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Re: Why are some drillers secretive?
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2004, 10:32:59 AM »
My driller and I have a great relationship when it comes to the equipment I have and what I want drilled out. He will take the time to measure everything out, make sure it's balanced correctly and be sure that it's to the desired effect that I want. He will let me know if I need a weighthole, how far it should be drilled out, etc...if I'm not happy with the reaction I'm getting. What I like the most is he believes very much in each ball fitting the same way, as he is aware of the times you need to switch from ball to ball in league or tournament play, often in the middle of a game when you haven't thrown the ball all night.

I think many times you will get half answers not necessarily out of secretiveness, but more so out of the lack of knowledge a particular driller may have in that area. There is so much to know and I think some people retain information better than others.

Matt
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Pinbuster

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Re: Why are some drillers secretive?
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2004, 10:59:14 AM »
I’ll play devil’s advocate here.

If you are a ¾ roller 80% of them will have a pap within ¾ of an inch of each other. And missing a pin/cg position by less than an inch has little effect on the balls reaction.

If a driller knows you’re a ¾ roller and you tell the reaction you want, he can pick a pin, cg, and mass bias layout that will give you the desired reaction.

Only if you are on the extremes (full roller, spinner) does the PAP much matter.

Should they get your PAP? Being precise has advantages and should be done. But in the example the driller has done multiple balls before for the bowler so I would imagine they have a good idea of their style and has been successful in providing the reaction the customer wanted.

Also when you come in with a ball in hand or determined to by a particular ball you have automatically tied the proshop’s hands. The cover, core, MB, and pin location will dictate a lot of the balls reaction and how you can drill it.

The biggest reason to have specs is to get the desired reaction but I’ve seen the old “paralysis thru analysis” syndrome set it as well.

I saw a guy go around with the pro for over 2 hours on ball he brought in arguing about ½” differences in the position of pins and cg. Either would have worked, the pro was willing to drill any of the combinations, but the guy was nuts and wouldn’t make up his mind(s)).
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FBM357

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Re: Why are some drillers secretive?
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2004, 11:05:40 AM »
Bob7,

Bro, extra 25 minutes is not a problem (I'm use to the drive whenever I go fishing upstate ) so your idea sounds GREAT!  I subbed Sat. & Sun. @ White Plains.  Didn't do too bad (631 & 652 respectively).  I've only bowled there 3 times (all subbing for someone).  One thing I noticed, lanes were much different at each ends of the floor.

Anyway, after I successfully jacked my own thread , check your PM's.

I'm willing to check it out!

Thanks,

V

quote:
Vernon, where are you getting your stuff drilled. If it's in Westchester, or mahattan, then I probably know the guy.

I've seen the guy in homefield (which for some reason, I remember you saying that you bowl there) do some pretty crazy things (IE, weight hole IN THE TRACK, 1" over from thumb on track side)......

If you want some more reliable servicing, you could go another 25 minutes north up to White Plains, where we have a fairly good shopper (and I'm NOT just saying that because he's my boss). He'll spend hours with you talking about choices if you want.
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Nina-My parents are jerks and I want to get back at them by doing it with you on their bed.

FES (extremely quickly)-Except that.

Edited on 10/11/2004 10:33 AM

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Caring people make a difference!!!  All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing

Edited on 10/11/2004 11:00 AM
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scotts33

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Re: Why are some drillers secretive?
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2004, 11:27:14 AM »
add to that the ability to ACTUALLY know how to use a scale!  How many times do you to Natl's and see a guy who has to have a hole punched in it to be legal.  If close you have to err on the lighter side.

Scott
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Scott

LuckyLefty

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Re: Why are some drillers secretive?
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2004, 11:33:04 AM »
Protecting their turf!

And well they should!  It is a horrible business in general.
Despite effort and interest one will often hardly make enough to eat.

Also like noted above too much knowledge for a lot of people is damaging.

I've actually bowled my best when I just focused on bowling with 3 balls.

Knowing a hall of fame bowler let's one also see that many of them also only want to be the indian, not the arrow!

Also who needs to waste two hours where a guy who's got a little knowledge wants to waste 2 hours of your time on a $30 dollar drilling!

REgards,

Luckylefty
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T-GOD

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Re: Why are some drillers secretive?
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2004, 12:24:11 PM »
I'll take the stance from the pro shop side. I'm the ball doctor so to speak. You come to me to fix a problem and/or give you a certain ball reaction. As a professional ball driller, that's my job. I'm the professional here, not you. Do you go into the doctors office and tell him what to do..? No, he diagnose's the problem, gives you advice and suggest's the remedies.

So, if you go to a professional/competent ball driller, then it's up to him to decide how your ball gets drilled. I take full responsibility for my actions. Meaning if I decide to give you a certain layout and it doesn't work, I'll make it right on my dime.

As a bowler, the more you think you know/learn about drilling, weights/balancing, and layouts, most of the time the worse you're gonna be as a bowler..!! Because, your mind will be thinking too much about what you think should work ect..., instead of just throwing the ball and making it/letting it work.

You'll have a better peace of mind to just let your driller hand you a ball that gives you the reaction you're looking for, then trying to decide for yourself what you think will work.

You're better off in the long run not knowing all this technical stuff. The best bowlers in the world(PBA Players) let ball reps make the decision on new balls and layouts for them, for the reason I just mentioned.

Walter Ray is a prime example, but it's basically the same for the others too.

Why should a pro shop teach you all the knowledge he has worked for..? So you can come in and tell him how to drill/layout your ball..? Now if you want to learn all this stuff, go learn it on your own and open up your own pro shop.  =:^D

Edited on 10/11/2004 12:28 PM
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DP3

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Re: Why are some drillers secretive?
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2004, 12:30:13 PM »
^^What he said^^
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scotts33

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Re: Why are some drillers secretive?
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2004, 12:48:34 PM »
quote:
. I take full responsibility for my actions. Meaning if I decide to give you a certain layout and it doesn't work, I'll make it right on my dime.
 


T-God--I'd say your stance is in the minority.  Does this mean if your customer doesn't get the dersired ball reaction that you will take back the ball you layed out and drilled and set him up with a new ball?  Just wondering.

Your points are valid.

Scott
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Scott

JohnP

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Re: Why are some drillers secretive?
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2004, 01:12:48 PM »
Doc Hollywood -- I'd like to take exception to the following as it relates to entry level balls:

quote:
The profit margins are the greatest for the newbie plastic bowlers where there is minimal effort needed to get a decent profit. Just punch the ball label get tehm shoes and a bag and then ask will that be cash or credit. Those that need more time to lay out something specific takes away the profit margin in some cases.


I can't speak for all pro shops, but we make very little on plastic balls.  First, to be competitive with KMart, etc, there is not much mark up on these balls.  We price them in the $50 - 60 range with drilling included. They are almost always drilled conventionally, so no extra profit from slugs and grips. And I spend almost as much time with these bowlers as I do with the ones that are buying $200 equipment, making sure they get a good fit and are completely satisfied.  Why?  We consider these bowlers our future.  Hopefully, in a year or two they'll be ready to move up to better equipment and will remember how they were treated.  And in the interim they'll spend $$$ on lineage and leagues.

On the original question.  I'd say not 5% of my customers, even the very best bowlers, even know what a PAP is.  And the 5% that do are because I've told them.  I've taken a two day class on pro shop work, and have spent a LOT of time here and on other web sites, trying to learn more about what affects ball reaction.  You asked your driller questions that he (and this most certainly applies to me) is not sure about.  And that only marginally, if at all, affect ball layouts.  Now, he doesn't want to appear to lack knowledge, so he gives a "half" answer.  You may very well know more about the subject than he does!  This doesn't affect his ability to give you a good fit and layout.  --  JohnP



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Debina

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Re: Why are some drillers secretive?
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2004, 01:18:24 PM »
Just suppose this ...

You start bowling knowing nothing about the sport.  For two years you give all your business to one pro shop guy, and we're not talking one or two balls, but literally thousands of dollars of business.  (New bowlers often have more money than sense.)  

You go to Reno to compete in a tournament, and you decide to buy a ball or two there.  The guy who drills the ball watches you throw and suggests you shorten your span and change your thumb pitch from 1/8th reverse and 1/8th lateral to 0/0.  You figure you'll give it a try.  Amazingly, the new equipment feels better, comes off your hand cleaner, rolls smoother and helps you jump your average 20 pins almost immediately.  The guy in Reno also gives you your new spec sheet.

You go home and a few month later, after giving this new equipment a true test, you decide you want a new ball.  You go to original pro shop guy and buy the ball you want.  You give him the new spec sheet and also ask him to measure your stuff you had drilled in Reno.  You ask him to drill the new ball the same way.  He balks and says you need a stretched span.  You insist that you want it drilled by the new spec sheet, so he grudgingly agrees to do it your way.  You throw the new ball for a few weeks, and it just doesn't feel right, so you stow it in the bottom of your bag.

Later, you're open bowling in a different house and the pro shop is open.  On a whim, you go in and ask the guy to check the stuff you like throwing against the last ball you had drilled by local pro guy.  The analysis is that the spans are the same, but the thumb in the last ball has been drilled with 1/8th reverse and 1/8th lateral instead of 0/0.

Did original pro shop guy really have the right to do it "his way" when you asked him to drill off the new spec sheet?  At this point are you shopping for a new local driller?  Or do you wait for that once-a-year trip to Reno and get all of your equipment from the guy there?
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