Post by: Juggernaut on January 21, 2011, 04:07:39 AM
After some of the recent threads about bowling equipment, specifically bowling balls, this question has come to my mind: Exactly why DO bowling balls cost what they do?
Usually, polyester (plastic) balls are the least expensive, followed by either a urethane or an "entry level" reactive, then a "mid level" offering, then on to the upper levels of performance. And, with each step, there is an increase in price level. Why is this?
If a plastic ball costs, and I'm guessing here, around $20 to make, does it take more than $120 to make a high performance ball? Since a high performance ball costs AT LEAST $100 more at the consumer end, does that mean it cost that much more to make?
I'm not talking about R&D costs because, lets face it, if they're spending that much on R&D to increase the price by $100 a ball, they're wasting a lot somewhere, especially since many times it is just a re-hash of some different core/cover combination. I'm just wondering why something a relatively simple as bowling ball has such a wide variance in the price range from the base model to the top level when it seems that it shouldn't cost that much more to make.
I guess it might be that, by the time it reaches the end consumer (you and me), it has gone from the manufacturer selling it for a profit large enough to cover production costs and shipping, to the distributor re-selling it for a profit to cover their expenses, to the proshop re-selling it for a profit covering their expenses, so that we, as end consumers, are paying enough for three different entities to profit off of it? But if that is it, why do some of them costs so much more than others.
And PLEASE, no flaming this. It isn't intended to question anyones motives or character, only to wonder why bowling ball prices have gone so high and why people are so willing to pay so much for them?
Good transactions list in my profile
Post by: Gravity-Reign on January 21, 2011, 12:22:30 PM
"Proud to be everything, the right wing hates"
Post by: 9andaWiggle on January 21, 2011, 12:40:15 PM
Can you answer that question for Shoes? Does it really cost that much more to make a $150 technical running shoe than it does to build the $29.99 Wal Mart brand running shoe?
Research & Development and Marketing is your answer. Costs a lot of money for guys to stand around and perfect something that will pass scrutiny as being "technologically advanced" even though it basically does the same thing as the less technically advanced (on the simplest terms). Then you have marketing, to convince the customers that this "technologically advanced" shoe (or bowling ball) is actually going to increase their personal performance enough to justify the obscene price difference for it. Psychologists aren't cheap, and that's all marketing really is - phychologists figuring out how to brainwash the masses into dropping their cash.
9~ Internet Tough Guy and
Cyberspace Sheep Lover
Post by: BKloss on January 21, 2011, 12:41:19 PM
I think you answered your own question?
I think the companies base it off of R&D, granted the materials may not be expensive but the following has to be considered and included in the price.
-someone has to sit in an office or setup a poll to come up with the names, colors, logos etc.
-packaging
-testing
-advertising
-staff positions who have contracts and get free items, or paid to throw a certain company
-maintenance costs of the facility making the bowling balls (yes it is an assembly line for the most part but someone starts the process whether it be button pushing or chemical pouring etc)
Just my thoughts, "New Technology" = more money
The same goes with TV's, Electronics (Video game systems for one start at what? $499? then within months are down to $199, why not pay top dollar for a NEW item if the companies can see they have customers willing to pay top dollar, you won't see prices come down anytime soon)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brunswick Advisory Staff
The opinions expressed are solely those of the writer and not of Brunswick Corporation.
Post by: jls on January 21, 2011, 01:08:05 PM
Jag, many many years ago a sales rep told me that his company does not make any profit on plastic balls... In fact, to offset it, they tack on $5 to the cost of their high end models...Which may be the reason that just about all plastic balls are no longer made here...
Now for why the cost is sooo high... Well why don't we start with PAYROLL...Why is American Payroll sooo high... You see, Here in America most companies have to pay more for their workers...And because of that, they must charge more...U C when keyboard pounders surf the net 24/7 while at work, they are indeed costing their employers money...
Which is why, more and more now watch Facebook and other sites to see what their employee's are doing when they are supposed to be working...
If keyboard pounders would ever do 8 hours of work, I would guess that cost could go down by 25% - 40%...
And the cost of sooo many items has gone way too high...
Golf balls for $50 a dozen...Drivers for $399...Shoes for $219...etc etc etc...It's not just bowling balls...
And why is gas sooo high...
Go Bears
jls
Post by: qstick777 on January 21, 2011, 02:36:22 PM
??
Why does a Lexus cost more than a Toyota? Why does/did Mercury cost more than Ford?
Post by: jls on January 21, 2011, 03:04:53 PM
Why does it cost Obama more to dye his hair than Michelle...
jls
Post by: Juggernaut on January 21, 2011, 03:27:48 PM
I'm not asking why a STORM costs more than a ROTOGRIP, I'm asking why a Virtual Energy is the price it is in the first place.
I guess if you need an example, why does an Invasion cost more than a Tropical Heat?
Good transactions list in my profile
Post by: JOE FALCO on January 21, 2011, 04:00:50 PM
At one time they always referred to increase in prices due to UNIONS RAPING (bad word to use) the country .. there's really only one reason .. GREED!
Post by: Pinbuster on January 21, 2011, 04:25:22 PM
No one here (me included) knows what costs are involved in making a ball.
Almost all plastic balls are 3 piece construction, the most expensive material is the cover and it is just a thin veneer over a cheap core filler.
2 Piece plastic are more expensive because the use more cover material.
I also believe the process of pouring a 2 piece ball is more difficult, hanging a core, getting the correct tilt to the core etc is a more labor intensive endeavor.
Urethane and resin urethane are more expensive materials. Cores consist of different density materials that have to be assembled/manufactured.
People are willing to pay more for the high performance balls because they do produce higher scores. Otherwise everyone would just use an plastic pancake core ball.
Just as you should be willing to pay more for a driller that can fit you and lay out a ball properly for your game.
Post by: JOE FALCO on January 21, 2011, 04:49:11 PM
Let's see .. some high end ball have gone up in price $20 per ball in the last two months .. do you really think the companies expenses have gone up that fast? Someone might argue that this has been cooking for a while ..I'm not one that believes that!
Post by: JoeBowler on January 21, 2011, 07:03:57 PM
Since urethane is a oil product and the price of oil has gone up some could be attributed to that.
Who raised the price? Manufacture? Distributor? Retailer? Probably all the above.
But I guess they are all getting rich, Columbia bankrupt and bought out, FAB bankrupt, NU-Line, Champions, and I can't remember all the other manufactures. AMF and Brunswick struggling.
Joe we all know that everyone makes too much except for you and you just get worked over all the time.
Post by: mab on January 21, 2011, 07:44:11 PM
Is nobody listening to the evening news, reading the news paper ? We are coming out of the deepest recession of our countries history since the great depression. Now we are heading into what will most likely be the largest inflationary economic time in our history. You will really have to make hard decisions weather or not anything you spend money on is a NEED or WANT. Please make the right decisions and make sure you NEED whatever you covet and not WANT it, the consequences could be life altering.
One of these days I'm going to put it all together and roll a 300 game
Post by: JOE FALCO on January 21, 2011, 08:55:01 PM
Joe we all know that everyone makes too much except for you and you just get worked over all the time
Well my friend .. Right now I'm making 62% of what I was making in 1995! I get along on that .. perhaps it is too much .. I really don't care what other people make .. let them get what they deserve .. I don't think I ever got "worked over".. when I see a price is more then I think it should be .. I watch others pay it .. I won't .. someone is jacking up the price of bowling balls .. what you could get NIB/DRILLED/DELIVERED (top of the line ball) for $180 you're now paying $210 .. that my friend is GREED! It's probable just what bowling needs to put the finishing touches to a long life! Go ahead and make all the comments you wish but TRY to remember how the END STARTED!
Post by: completebowler on January 21, 2011, 09:11:52 PM
It is supply and demand. These items will only sell at the price point that the consumers are willing to pay. Do you want Tropical Storm performance or Anarchy performance? Well guess what????? The Anarchy is higher performance and so if that is what you would like to have on the lanes then that is what price point you will be paying.
How many of you guys that are unhappy with Storm and EBI will skip paying the extra $10 to $20 for the ball that you believe will give you the best chance to score?
These companies are hedging their bets and protecting their product. They believe that these new policies will only slightly effect their total sales (on top end only really) and in the process it will steer consumers back to pro shops where the odds are better that the bowler will end up with the right ball, with the right layout and proper surface for their individual game. And let's not even talk about fit.
Nobody is getting screwed here guys. There is an old saying that you get what you pay for. Keep shopping for the absolute lowest of low ball deals and at the end of the day the performance on the lanes will show. Trust me, I see it everyday.
ALL STAR BOWLING & TROPHY
LANGAN'S ALL STAR LANES
WALLED LAKE MI
Post by: Tex on January 21, 2011, 09:17:56 PM
Some of the recent increases have to fall on the old supply and demand. When demand decreases the price may increase, since the cost of production either does not change or in the current business model has increased. Utility costs, shipping costs have gone up for sure. Payroll likely has not since a majority of companies have frozen the pay of thier employees. Suspect bowling ball manufacturers have done the same. If you sell fewer balls and your overhead goes up you have to charge more for each of those balls. I imagine the profit margin on that ball is less now than a year ago. I know that to ship a ball from San Antonio to me outside Dallas was a flat $8 and that pretty much covered the cost, that same shipping is now close to or over $20. 900 now charges the full shippling cost, they no longer could afford to eat the difference. Just and example of a cost increase that we and they face.
I know in my industry our margins have dropped but since we are fighting for fewer projects (consruction industry) we have had to lower our prices. To help balance this we have laid off over 50% of our work force maybe more. Closed facilities and make the employess that are left do more in a shorter time. IF we could charge more we would, but since we bid for work we would have nothing to do and go under like many of our competitors. When all is said and done we will have fewer companies competing and so may the ball companies. When that happens our pricing may be able to go back up and if in the bowling industry that happens, well the ball prices now will be cheap compared to where they will be. Oh and remember there were balls back 10 years ago with price tags somewhere over $200. Then they dropped back down after everyone was making the same leverl products.
I do R&D and not sure about ball companies, but the testing we go through is not cheap. Material development can get expensive. The ball companies are also at the mercy of the chemical companies they purchase materials from, like BASF. We see increases almost every shipment on our oil based products unless our supplier decides to eat the increase to keep us from buying from someone else.
Are they making a profit. Sure. I bet not more than 10% to 20 % above the cost to produce and maybe not that much. It is hard to get any sponsorship from them and just a few years ago it was no problem to at least get a few balls to use in promotions. They just pinch pennies like all of us. I think most of the profit is actually with the middle man if I were to guess. They warehouse and sell, a few salaries to handle customer service and fill orders.
Post by: Juggernaut on January 21, 2011, 09:39:28 PM
Well, while the thread has seemed to get a little side tracked, it has not strayed from the subject so badly that some good points were made.
From the looks of things, bowling ball prices are arbitrarily set by the manufacturers, depending on the performance level targetted, and are based on their past experience of what the market will bear.
Given that train of thought, I am led to believe that prices will continue to rise until the people who are buying all the new balls, sometimes before they even it the shelves, stop fueling the fire.
AND, contrary to what it may seem, this isn't about the new "floor pricing" strategies of some manufacturers, it is about why bowling balls are costing upwards of $200 with increasing regularity anyway.
Good transactions list in my profile
Post by: Balldoctor on January 21, 2011, 10:21:23 PM
Polyester balls are still made by Ebonite International in Hopkinssville.
Go on a tour of the plant and you get an idea of what costs what and why. Labor, equipment and
materials are all costly for any ball. R and D for the higher end balls is on going and costly.
Get the picture, costs, costs costs.
The testing facility is world class. Training center is also great.
Many balls are tested before one is selected to be The Next ONE. Again costly.
Remember, ALL BOWLING IS LOCAL!
Post by: jls on January 22, 2011, 08:37:55 AM
Joe, my good man,,, NO HIGHEND BALL HAS GONE UP BY $20 AT THE WHOLESALE LEVEL... Since no ball company that I know of has had such a huge price increase...
However, some balls have indeed gone up at the retail ONLINE LEVEL. Now as for pro shops, I have not seen any major increases in price in my area...
These price increases you talk about are for the most part all from your ONLINE DEALERS...
They are the ones who raised prices to YOU SIR... And in some cases they are selling balls way over the guidelines Ebonite posted...
So Joe, my good man, if you feel you are getting screwed, put the blame where it belongs FOR ONCE IN YOUR LIFE... on your ONLINE dealers...
Stop BLAMING EBONITE OR PRO SHOPS...
Right now 3 of the hottest SELLING BALLS ON THE MARKET ARE FROM THE EBONITE
FAMILY. The TABOO, THE WORLD BEATER AND THE MISSION 2.0...And the Vital Energy is started to take off...
Of course we all know, you won't buy Ebonite... So stand by and watch your fellow bowlers using them and scoring....
And Joe, your post on tha Taboo was IGNORANT... You posted that you were not impressed with the ball since you saw 6 guys in your SENIOR league using the ball, and none of them could finish 3 games with it...
R U SERIOUS... Any bowler with an OUNCE of brains would know that the TABOO is for heavy oil...And HEAVY oil is seldom found in a SENIOR LEAGUE... And even when used on the correct shot, balls like the TABOO may only last for a game or 2 ... Then a SMART BOWLER knows it's time to change balls...
Nice try, trying to knock the TABOO because 6 guys in your SENIOR LEAGUE could not use it for all 3 games... THAT WAS JUST A STUPID / IGNORANT THING TO SAY...
Like I said, any real bowler would have known better...And a good pro shop would make sure that when or if he sells a ball like a TABOO, the bowler knows that it is a SNOW PLOY...Use it only on Heavy OIL...
Now seriously JOE, you know there is no such thing as HEAVY OIL in senior leagues...Give me a break... So your post was bias...
Nice try Joe... In fact, there is seldom HEAVY OIL in most Mens leagues...
Now come back and reply how you lost an "option"
jls
Edited by jls on 1/22/2011 at 9:43 AM
Post by: Juggernaut on January 22, 2011, 09:31:22 AM
JLS,
No need to get so emotionally wound up in this. We all know how Joe, you, and I feel about this subject. It is just that this subject has raised some questions that I was curious about, one of them being the way that prices are arrived at and set in the first place.
Since the manufacturers have started this "floor pricing" policy, Joe HAS lost one of his, and MY, buying options, options that had saved me quite a few bucks more than a couple of times. I liked it, and I will miss it if it is truly gone for good.
I don't hate proshops. I actually like them, used to work in one, and wouldn't mind it if I was able to support myself by being in that field. Thing is, that just is not possible where I am at, and it is becoming ever increasingly hard to do, given the tactics of the manufacturers and the proliferation of competition in the proshop industry. Yes, part of that is because of the way the internet has changed the way we do things, but the internet isn't going away, and having shops jack up their service prices to "punish" those who buy their equipment elsewhere may be just as harmful to your business base as the internet prices ever were.
I understand you are in business to make money, I have no problem with that, nor do I have a problem with REASONABLE pricing. $40 for drilling a ball doesn't seem exhorbitant if you give good service, but there are places that have started charging upwards of $80 bucks to drill a blank ball, and that is just too much.
I guess I've sort of answered my own question though. In another thread, I originally said that I wouldn't have a problem with $200/$250 being the price of "the best ball out there" if it was guaranteed to work, but later realized that if it was higher than that, I would eventually get tired of being beaten by people who had them, and in all honesty would end up paying more if that's what it took to stop me from getting beaten. I may not be bowling for money, but I really hate to lose. Bad enough to spend money to make it stop, if that's what it takes.
Good transactions list in my profile
Post by: JOE FALCO on January 22, 2011, 09:45:05 AM
Thanks Jls .. you proved my observations .. since you pointed out that I said this in another posting .. nothing to do with this one ..the TABOO had to be put away after the first game (at most the second game) .. you didn't mention that in that same post I was VERY IMPRESSED with both issues of the MISSION .. and that my friend was my opinion .. thank you for letting me know that my impressions were right. I did mention in that posting that I have not owned either ball.
You continually make note of my postings .. thank you again .. I appreciate you repeating my messages .. I try not to say something I would not defend. I'm glad to see you agree that the $210 (plus) Taboo is strictly a HEAVY OIL ball .. and I'm sure that your BIG DOLLAR EARNING public are enjoying their purchases.
You also reference Senior bowlers .. I do bowl in a senior league .. and I'll bet you sell to some Senior bowlers. Believe me they are some pretty dedicated bowlers. Quite a few (not all) use HIGH END balls .. yes they do not buy more then 3 balls a year .. but with the price of balls (that's this topic) going higher I doubt that they will buy that many!
You always seem to question how much the increase is .. YES I'M REFERRING TO THE ON-LINE SHOPS .. If I was buying the HIGH END balls (un-drilled) before for $135 and now they are $155 .. thats $20 .. now the new balls by the same company (same type) are even higher then the $155 .. YES you are correct it's the ON-LINE DEALERS that are charging more then before .. but that price was DICTATED to them .. ISN'T THAT TRUE???
You always seem to question how much the increase is .. YES I'M REFERRING TO THE ON-LINE SHOPS .. If I was buying the HIGH END balls (un-drilled) before for $135 and now they are $155 .. thats $20 .. now the new balls by the same company (same type) are even higher then the $155 .. YES you are correct it's the ON-LINE DEALERS that are charging more then before .. but that price was DICTATED to them .. ISN'T THAT TRUE???
Every posting that is NEW you always reference prior postings. If you want to talk to the prior postings why don't you go back to them and post there? This way people can see the whole topic and not only what you want them to see. Why have the same thing all over the place .. it can be confusing to those that don't read the whole topic!!!
Running a Pro shop has got to be a tough job. People working in the shops have it tough .. attitude/knowledge/experience and appearance means so much to the public .. one bad penny can ruin a good shop. Evidently selling balls is a BIG source of income for B/M shops. I guess if you don't sell bowling balls a shop can't turn a profit. I always felt the shops made money on drilling and services .. but I guess I was wrong Pro Shps survive from profits made on Bowling ball sales.
I guess this increase in prices that apparently is being driven by some companies could have an adverse effect on B/M shops some time down the road. Time will tell.
Post by: jls on January 22, 2011, 09:57:38 AM
Jag, Joe loves to use bold letters in most of his post...So I wanted him to feel right at home...
Posting that balls have gone up $20 leads consumers to believe that the ball companies are jacking up prices...
That just ain't so...Even Ebonite's new release next month, has not gone up in price...
What has gone up are the prices of Joe's Online dealers...
So it would be nice and HONEST of him to address them when talking about price increases and his options being taken away...
Now $40 to $50 to fit and layout and drill a blank ball is a fair price...$80 is a bit high... I don't know of a single shop in my area charging that much... I believe $65 is the highest I have seen...
One of the big concerns of both Ebonite and Storm is, who is drilling their balls for consumers... In many cases "hole pounders" are... Now the term "hole pounders" pertains to any one who just pounds 3 holes in a ball... Whether it be a pro shop or a basement/garage driller...
Their logic is that if the ball is laid out wrong, it will not perform, and then their brand gets a black eye...
In another post a few days ago, one that now seems deleted... Joe posted about how he was not impressed with the Taboo... Since 6 guys in his league could not get threw 3 games with the ball...
Now to me that is either just plain stupid talk or someone is ignorant to fact of how and when to use a Taboo...
If you want to go swimming in Jan... you don't go on vacation in Alaska... If you want to go snow skiing, you don't go to Florida... It's called commonsense...
A Taboo is a heavy oil ball, and should be used on that shot, especially in the oob finish. For someone to post negative about the Taboo not working for 3 games shows me one of two things... He is either BIAS or just ignorant on the proper use of said ball... Or BOTH...
And once again, Ebonite has not raise any prices since Nov. 1st 2010...Yet the cost of many items we use daily have gone up... Like gas for our cars...
Now some people feel that a pro shop is important... Making $50-$75 on a ball that cost you about $132 is not "raping" anyone...But some people don't care about getting their balls properly fitted and laid out and drilled... They only care about the cost...and when they can get a hole pounder to drill the ball for $25 with inserts, slugs lunch and a car wash, that's all they care about ...
Some guy named Gunny bragged about how he is a basement/garage ball driller...and his cost was $25...And he thought pro shops are ripping people off charging them $50...
So I and a few others pointed out that pro shops have overhead and PAY TAXES...And then Gunny put me on his CHILDISH iggy list... Cause he didn't want to deal with the truth...
Real bowlers don't sweat nickles and dimes... wan a bees do
have a great day Jag...
Go Bears
jls
Edited by jls on 1/22/2011 at 11:00 AM
Post by: JOE FALCO on January 22, 2011, 10:09:37 AM
Same song .. different posting .. how many times can you write the SAME THING??? This all started .. with EBONITE TOOK AN OPTION AWAY FROM THE BOWLER!!! I been accused of being an OLD GUY/CHEAP/DON'T KNOW WHAT'S HAPPENING/STUPID/and a few other things I don't remember .. all because I pointed out .. EBONITE TOOK AN OPTION AWAY FROM BOWLERS! Ad the truth is EBONITE TOOK AN OPTION AWAY FROM BOWLERS!
Post by: jls on January 22, 2011, 11:09:17 AM
That's right Joe, same old song you keep singing...
You keep bashing Ebonite and now I see you are jumping on the Storm bandwagon also...
You "can't handle the truth"
You want to buy CHEAP, even if it means cutting the hearts out of pro shops...
And now the Good people of Ebonite and Storm have stepped up to the plate to help the entire industry...
Real bowlers don't sweat nickles and dimes, wan a bees do...
So now lets see how many more times POOR JOE will cry and post his B.S. story.
"not impressed with the Taboo, 6 guys in my SENIOR league can't get threw 3 games with it"
What a stupid/ignorant statement made by someone who is not only clueless about how the ball performs, but is also bias...............
Hows that for the truth Joey Boy
jls
Post by: JOE FALCO on January 22, 2011, 11:35:13 AM
Bowling is on tv .. sorry .. incidentally .. the TABOO users were not SENIORS .. doubt if they see oil or can afford the price ..keep thinking ..maybe something new will come up ..
Post by: jls on January 22, 2011, 12:34:53 PM
Yes Joe, bowling is on TV..
And Mika just shot 299 with the New Domination
Real bowlers don't sweat nickels and dimes....wan a bees do
And if the 6 guys were not seniors, then they for sure they did not know what they are doing... because most bowlers would have the commonsense to switch balls and not use a Taboo for three games on the HOUSE SHOT...
OH and BTW Ebonite has not raised the price on their new Domination.
Just so you know
jls
Edited by jls on 1/22/2011 at 1:43 PM
Post by: JOE FALCO on January 22, 2011, 04:08:42 PM
Again you try to quote me but miss a little .. I said not one of the guys I saw using the Taboo were able to go past the first or second game .. now at the time you came back and said that was correct because anyone who knows the Taboo knows it's for heavy oil .. I came back and thanked you for confirming my observation .. how different things come out when you try to repeat them. I guess that all boils down to your special customers who can spend $210 on a ball that they plan to use (perhaps) one game .. hope they make a LOTOF MONEY in that game ..after all they are BIG MONEY BOWLERS (is that what you call them???)
Post by: kidlost2000 on January 22, 2011, 04:56:06 PM
The 299 read around the world. Depending on your market most showed college basketball instead of bowling. All of the hype, all of the back to broadcast television with no football, all the biggest PBA purse ever and you get dropped like the side show you are for college basketball???
You think they didn't know coming in that this would happen and did it any way?
Sorry, but that is an EPIC FAIL for the PBA. How great would it be if MIKA shot 300 and most people couldn't watch it because of the basketball being shown? Sorry but that is just another slap in the face to the PBA and bowling for how poorly planned that was. The only thing needed now is ESPN to start dropping coverage to ESPN XI to show billiards and table tennis on the higher up ESPN channels.
The cost of bowling balls being what they are is research and development. It cost money to develop something new consistently. Pay employees, produce it, get it USBC approved, get it on the PBA if you choose sponsorship.( PBA runs $100K+ per brand depending on the level of sponsorship) Then get it out to the public. There is no R&D in plastic bowling balls, midline equipment use older technology that has already been developed and used on previous higher end bowling balls.
Then you factor in that the companies sells them to a distributor for a profit, the distributor sales it to the proshop for a profit, then the proshop sales it to you for a profit. It is really that simple. The more people that handle the product before you, the more the cost will increase.
Be good, or be good at it.