Author Topic: Will League bowling suvive? (Read 6715 times)

Boos · « **on:** February 02, 2010, 01:52:24 AM »

As a online pro shop owner I can see that league bowling is declining. I asked on another thread about how I can find out just how many. Business has been below average for the past 2 years with the recession and to be honest I think people are giving up. Heck, I am down to 1 league. I used to bowl 3 or 4. I have opened another Business out of bowling and am enjoying it. I will keep the Bowling shop but just for a hobby. You just cannot make money in bowling.

HughScot · « **Reply #31 on:** February 02, 2010, 07:26:10 PM »

Today everyone has more choices and opportunities to spend their disposable income than they did ten years ago. Most people don't have the time to bowl in 3 or 4 leagues per week. We have other things to do, more choices. Bowling centers are competing with many other activities for our dollar.

It is definitely not because some CEO is making $5,000,000 per annum. That is just socialist thinking.

DrBob806 · « **Reply #32 on:** February 02, 2010, 07:50:34 PM »

quote:
Today everyone has more choices and opportunities to spend their disposable income than they did ten years ago. Most people don't have the time to bowl in 3 or 4 leagues per week. We have other things to do, more choices. Bowling centers are competing with many other activities for our dollar.

I think that is the best answer so far...there aren't too many young people getting into league bowling anymore.

Kids today might enjoy bowling, but if they are into other sports as well, they don't have time to join leagues. Many sports on the youth level have nearly turned into year-long specialties, which is crazy. If your kid wants to play basketball, for example, he/she almost has to play year round just to keep up with everyone else (or fall behind). I don't agree with it, but that's the way it seems to go nowadays.

Atochabsh · « **Reply #33 on:** February 02, 2010, 08:04:34 PM »

Too many centers have vacant lanes, waiting for those few that will pay over $4 a game for open bowling. When you have an empty center, its "feeling" when you walk in is dead and boring. When you have a full center, even of open play, there's an excitement in the air. This propels bowlers to be more interested in bowling, IMO. Some might even get more interested in bowling on a regular basis. And then maybe leagues. But I think the main killer is to have vacant empty centers.

League bowling may have to change to shorter seasons, but the managers want the year long guarantee of lineage. So there's a butting of heads there. Centers don't want short league seasons and bowlers want shorter league seasons. Also singles leagues that are no obligated to be there every week. This is again a problem for most centers because they want a guarantee of lane usage. But some of those singles might start coming back on a more permanent weekly basis and add open play or maybe join a more traditional league.

Adults with children are a huge influence. If the parents bowl, then usually the kids bowl too. So having family plans and discounts might encourage league play. Finding time to get the kids into the bowling center has to be strategically planned around other sports.

I think more attention to church groups would be beneficial too. A church group of Jr./Adult league might introduce more newbies to the sport. Keep it a short league if you can do so and hopefully you'll gain some more long term league bowlers. Senior centers the same thing. If a center can work out transportation from a centrally located area (like a senior center) then you might gain more league bowlers on a weekly basis.

But I think the main culprit is that centers are kind of stagnant where it comes to communication with their customers. There's a control desk worker who is usually a minimum wage earning younger person. No one goes through the open play asking if people are interested in league play. Centers seem to leave the main communication and interaction of their customers to the center be the minimum wage earning teenager or sub 25 year old. Who frankley doesn't care if anyone joins a league or not.

Erin

rvmark · « **Reply #34 on:** February 02, 2010, 08:07:37 PM »

quote:
League bowler .. 10 teams 4 bowlers for 36 weeks .. casual bowler perhaps once a month!

I wasn't comparing League bowler to Casual bowler I was talking LINEAGE COST! I think it's too high .. shoe cost .. I think it's too high! If we can't keep bowlers in the Center how can the rest of the Industry (ball manufacturers/pro shops) survive?
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J O E - F A L C O

RIP Thong Princess/Sawbones

Joe,

Do you have any idea what it costs to operate a bowling center? What do you pay for lineage in your center? I think that before we all criticize that is costing too much we should stop and think about what it takes to keep the doors open at a bowling center. I have been through the numbers and it takes both league and open bowlers to make a center work along with food and beverage sales. If you stop and do the math on most centers you would see that in several cases that they are making ends meet but not getting rich.

Mark

storm making it rain · « **Reply #35 on:** February 02, 2010, 08:14:01 PM »

quote:
Joe,

Do you have any idea what it costs to operate a bowling center? What do you pay for lineage in your center? I think that before we all criticize that is costing too much we should stop and think about what it takes to keep the doors open at a bowling center. I have been through the numbers and it takes both league and open bowlers to make a center work along with food and beverage sales. If you stop and do the math on most centers you would see that in several cases that they are making ends meet but not getting rich.

Mark

But Mark if the GREEDY center owners/managers just lowered the price of lineage it would solve all that is wrong with our sport...LOL

JOE FALCO · « **Reply #36 on:** February 02, 2010, 08:19:35 PM »

Erin .. all good ideas .. still COST/COST/COST .. having a special will be good for that TIME .. prices have to be BETTER all the time to keep people coming!

Have open bowling (for all) between 3 and 5:30 at $2 a game with $1 shoe rental. Pass the word around in nearby schools. Try it for a month. During that time talk with attendees about a league where the fees will be no more the $8 for three games.

Some how getting people in the door is going to be related to COST/COST/COST!

IMO!
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J O E - F A L C O

RIP Thong Princess/Sawbones

JOE FALCO · « **Reply #37 on:** February 02, 2010, 08:32:47 PM »

quote:
Do you have any idea what it costs to operate a bowling center? What do you pay for lineage in your center? I think that before we all criticize that is costing too much we should stop and think about what it takes to keep the doors open at a bowling center. I have been through the numbers and it takes both league and open bowlers to make a center work along with food and beverage sales. If you stop and do the math on most centers you would see that in several cases that they are making ends meet but not getting rich.

To answer your question ... NO. However while the Center is OPEN .. is it better to be EMPTY or BUSY? I never claimed that the proprietors are getting RICH from Centers however they may lose their investment if they continue to overprice their product.

Having fewer bowlers and charging more works TODAY it may not be best for your future (cause you have less people you are reaching)

I've explained my point and know it doesn't help and it was all FOR DISCUSSION .. nothing I say will help .. it was just my thoughts on DECLINING BOWLING.

Thanks!
--------------------
J O E - F A L C O

RIP Thong Princess/Sawbones

txbowler · « **Reply #38 on:** February 02, 2010, 09:27:29 PM »

This must vary in various parts of the country. We have a 24 lane house in town. My wife went there last Sat for a birthday party for her niece. I asked her how full it was. She said they had a waiting list at 1 pm in the afternoon.

So in this area the local center is full of recreational bowlers every weekend paying $4-$5 a game plus shoes, or more for kids birthday parties.

I think it is like everything. Some parts of the country are hit worse than others. At the other house I drive to where I bowl league, their leagues have grown the past 2 years. We might be the exception too.

Artimust · « **Reply #39 on:** February 02, 2010, 10:31:20 PM »

quote:
IMO the problem is not with cost of (bowling) equipment but more with the cost of BOWLING at the Centers! Parents can't afford to send the kids bowling .. the same adults can't afford to bowl more then once a week (even then it's a strain). If the Centers would cut the linage fees they wouldn't have so much IDLE time and this would help the bowling industry.

We have to get 10-16 year olds involved .. if we think of only today this game will DIE .. the Senior bowlers are drifting away (or passing) and those that remain CANT AFFORD the sport!

Again IMO the centers (both Corporate and Mom/Pop) are KILLING BOWLING! And the answer is GREED!
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RIP Thong Princess/Sawbones

This I totally agree with!
I coach bantams (11 and under) in a Saturday Junior League, and also assist in coaching a youth Travel League team as well.

I believe that the future of EVERYTHING is our children! So, we want the sport to grow and be popular again? Tired of centers closing, and center owners charging more and more and more? Get kids into the sport! Might work.

I am by no means a great bowler, but I love the sport, and have loved it all my life. I returned to the sport after a 23 year absence, and i love it more than I did before I left! Spend the time to teach the youth, help them get better, mentor them, and hopefully, they will have the same love of the sport as you do. And the cycle goes on and on. They bring their friends, and so on and so on.

I'm also starting free junior bowling classes with kids from a local Boys and Girls Club, giving them lessons and getting them more interested and maybe even competitive. These are for kids that can't afford to bowl, or have parents that don't bowl or take their children bowling.

One of the most important things to me is giving back to the community.

looseleftie · « **Reply #40 on:** February 02, 2010, 10:58:52 PM »

There are so many reasons why league bowling is declining. Certainly,two major factors are costs, and promotion of bowling as a fun/social/serious sport. Erin, mentioned about the desk clerk minimum wage who couldn't care less, they are not good for ANY business.. They do exist I have seen many.

People have less disposable income, with less time in which to spend it, do not want to be necessarily obliged to play a 35 plus week season, and have a huge array of alternative activities in which they can spend their dollar. On top of that, we are a lazy,overweight and static society.. We spend so much of our own time using technology (like right now for me on the net on a bowling forum) and developing artificial friendships with strangers online....

I wish they (Amf's/Brunswick etc..) Corporations would not sting the social Mum and Dad and 2 kids coming into bowl once every school holiday break... It could just make a difference with them bowlig more frequently, hopefully this may light their fire for bowling... Join a league, push the adult/child leagues, phantoms leagues, lower costs for league and practise rates, and fill up the entrs during league and open play sessions throughout the week.I'm not a busineesman, just a Dad hoping that my kids may expeience leagues down the road, and also for their kids....

Also having a pro shop in the centre looks GREAT, also having a good coaching program running at your centre would also help. How many bowlers do u know who left the sport because they felt like they were not improving??? Way too many. The centre takes the money and thinks Great!! They do nothing for them afterwards.. Frustrating as I love this sport, and love walking into my centre. I actually knicked off from work early to bowl this afternoon, hope the boss doesn't catch on.. Oh well, I did it for a good reason.

Looseleftie

Atochabsh · « **Reply #41 on:** February 03, 2010, 12:35:37 AM »

quote:
Have open bowling (for all) between 3 and 5:30 at $2 a game with $1 shoe rental. Pass the word around in nearby schools.

Actually try $1 a game at those times. And there's a waiting list for open play nearly every day at that time. They are waiting for the noonish senior leagues to finish up before the open play can start. And there's a waiting list. A waiting list always means....."I need to kill time, how am I going to do that?". i.e. more bar and cafe sales.

Erin

Atochabsh · « **Reply #42 on:** February 03, 2010, 12:43:12 AM »

quote:
To answer your question ... NO. However while the Center is OPEN .. is it better to be EMPTY or BUSY? I never claimed that the proprietors are getting RICH from Centers however they may lose their investment if they continue to overprice their product.

This is my biggest issue. Air Plane companies have seemed to have finally gotten this point. When will bowling centers?

After all, you have to have a mechanic there, you have to have a desk person there, you have to have a snack shop person there. These folks are already there being paid. YOu might as well make them earn their keep by giving them customers. Once a person is actively working at their job and not bored with it (waiting for it to happen or hoping it won't happen), they tend to give off more positive vibes.

Erin

Atochabsh · « **Reply #43 on:** February 03, 2010, 01:01:14 AM »

I"m just curious. Maybe you guys can give some feedback to this question.

How many times have you been bowling open play and had the manager or center representative come down to your lane and ask you about your current bowling experience? Something like "I'm Bob Striker, I'm the manager, are you having a good time bowling here today?" if you get any positive feedback, then "you might want to consider one of our fun handicap leagues, we have them nearly every night around 6:30pm". Then with league play "You'll get USBC sanctioning and its benefits as well as discounted open play at premium times".

I've canvased centers that were 30 lanes or so and it doesn't take all that much time to make a quick run through. It doesn't take more then 15 - 20 min.

So how many of you have seen your center managers canvas lanes PERSONALLY for return customers or new league bowlers?

Erin

AngloBowler · « **Reply #44 on:** February 03, 2010, 04:14:43 AM »

Does anyone else think that the playing conditions are part of this debate?

As the cost of lineage (and therefore the cost of practice) goes up, the lane conditions have become easier. We're at the point now, where, if the lane conditions get harder, most people would not be able to afford sufficient practice to improve (if they were forced to pay the "open bowler" rate) on top of their league commitments.

I'm in full agreement with those who're saying that it's better to have a full centre than an empty one... But most centre managers I've had experience of would rather have 100 % of nothing that 50 % of something. I'm not saying that bowling centres aren't allowed to make a profit, but I don't think I've ever seen any other industry that treats the idea of regular, repeat, custom with such contempt.
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Reporting from England

rvmark · « **Reply #45 on:** February 03, 2010, 05:38:23 AM »

I don't know what you pay for lineage, but I looked at buying a 10 lane bowling center with 2 other partners, after running the cash flow projections with leagues 5 nights, open bowling fees, food and beverage sales, we would be able to make it work if the three of us did not take any money out of the business for the first 7 years and split work duties between the three of us along with hiring some staff. We all are avid bowlers but at the end of the day we all had full time jobs and we would have been working 2-3 nights a week each and just able to pay off the debt and and pay our workers. While we wanted to make a go at it our families would have suffered the consequence.

If you as a center are getting $3.25 for lineage for league and cut the rates down to $2.50 per line then you will need more bowlers to make up the dollar amounts:

50 bowlers @ 3.25 = 162.50
65 bowlers @ 2.50 = 162.50 this takes an increase of 30% in bowler numbers just to get the same amount of lineage you will have more in beverage and food sales but those are not all profit either.

My point is their has to be a balance between reasonable prices and an opportunity for a profit for the people owning a center. Erin makes several good points about opportunities for centers bottom line is that in order for bowling to grow it will take youth getting back into bowling. In some areas there is significant growth in youth bowling, areas that are not experiencing growth in youth bowling should take a look at what is going on in the areas where there is growth. Corporate centers are probably going to be less apt to do some of the things that a locally owned center will but bottom line if you have a center that is willing to work to promote league bowling then support them.

Mark

quote:
quote:
Do you have any idea what it costs to operate a bowling center? What do you pay for lineage in your center? I think that before we all criticize that is costing too much we should stop and think about what it takes to keep the doors open at a bowling center. I have been through the numbers and it takes both league and open bowlers to make a center work along with food and beverage sales. If you stop and do the math on most centers you would see that in several cases that they are making ends meet but not getting rich.

To answer your question ... NO. However while the Center is OPEN .. is it better to be EMPTY or BUSY? I never claimed that the proprietors are getting RICH from Centers however they may lose their investment if they continue to overprice their product.

Having fewer bowlers and charging more works TODAY it may not be best for your future (cause you have less people you are reaching)

I've explained my point and know it doesn't help and it was all FOR DISCUSSION .. nothing I say will help .. it was just my thoughts on DECLINING BOWLING.

Thanks!
--------------------
J O E - F A L C O

RIP Thong Princess/Sawbones

Author Topic: Will League bowling suvive? (Read 6715 times)

Boos

Will League bowling suvive?

HughScot

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DrBob806

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Atochabsh

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rvmark

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storm making it rain

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JOE FALCO

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JOE FALCO

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txbowler

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Artimust

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looseleftie

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Atochabsh

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Atochabsh

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Atochabsh

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AngloBowler

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rvmark

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