Author Topic: Question about "Fairness" (Read 9485 times)

dR3w · « **on:** August 08, 2013, 11:29:19 AM »

Fair or not? ... the biggest league in the city has gone to Kegel patterns for the upcoming season. This isn't going to be a sport sanctioned league.

I think the challenge part of the league is great, but the inevitable handicap issues will arise. People only bowling in this league will carry an average 20-30 pins lower than past years into handicap tournaments, and nothing they are doing is "wrong" under current USBC rules.

spmcgivern · « **Reply #31 on:** August 13, 2013, 07:39:36 AM »

Quote from: itsallaboutme on August 12, 2013, 05:49:31 PM

Here's his thinking for not doing this. He oils lanes for you. You are the only one to show up. You bowl 6 games at your league bowler rate and he takes in $15. Now any other bowlers that come in to open bowl, unless they are house ballers, don't want to use that pair until they are stripped and re-oiled.

Ideally if there was some interest a house could oil a couple of pairs with these types of conditions, advertise it and people could come in and bowl on that at specific times through out the week. But there just isn't enough interest. Maybe people would practice more if this was available, but it would take a while to catch on.

Maybe you could approach the proprietor and ask about integrating this in with the youth coaching and get the kids to learn to bowl on some tougher conditions.

Perhaps your center is different than all of the ones I have bowled at. I could understand not oiling during a time when the center wasn't going to oil. But to refuse to oil the lane when the machine is already on the lane putting out a normal shot seems a little petty. I realize it is his center and all, but there isn't any difference.

And when it comes to open bowling, they don't know the difference. And if a league bowler came in after him, oh well. I would rather bowl on left overs from a difficult shot than what is left over after too much oil in the middle combined with plastic. Perhaps if the lanes were to be the breakdown pair or something like that I could see, but I wouldn't have turned down the request.

itsallaboutme · « **Reply #32 on:** August 13, 2013, 08:06:36 AM »

You're looking at things from the bowler point of view, not from the business side. I'm giving you the other side of the argument from someone who has been on both sides of bowling my entire adult life.

You say oh well to the people that bowl after you. What if it is somebody that has never bowled at your center, just moved to the area. They come in, get that pair, and that is their first experience at your center. They usually average 180 but today they are shooting 130, 140. Next week the go to your competitor down the road to try them out and shoot their usual 170-200 games. Where do you think they will join a league?

If you oil lanes special for one person where do you draw the line? Every person will expect the same thing. Then they will get pissed when they don't have a fresh pair to bowl on when they come in. The only way to do this is if you are going to do it is run the lanes at a specific time each week and advertise that you are going to do it.

mrfrostee · « **Reply #33 on:** August 13, 2013, 08:08:01 AM »

I guess I am fairly lucky, at the center my kids bowl at they do a coaching session for the kids every other week. At that time they throw out difficult patterns for the kids to bowl on. They have put out Teen Masters, NCAA, all PBA(with exception of newest 3) and some of the World Tenpin patterns. The saddest part is that not a lot of kids show up but at least I get a chance to bowl on them also after the kids are done.

spmcgivern · « **Reply #34 on:** August 13, 2013, 08:16:16 AM »

Quote from: itsallaboutme on August 13, 2013, 08:06:36 AM

You're looking at things from the bowler point of view, not from the business side. I'm giving you the other side of the argument from someone who has been on both sides of bowling my entire adult life.

You say oh well to the people that bowl after you. What if it is somebody that has never bowled at your center, just moved to the area. They come in, get that pair, and that is their first experience at your center. They usually average 180 but today they are shooting 130, 140. Next week the go to your competitor down the road to try them out and shoot their usual 170-200 games. Where do you think they will join a league?

If you oil lanes special for one person where do you draw the line? Every person will expect the same thing. Then they will get pissed when they don't have a fresh pair to bowl on when they come in. The only way to do this is if you are going to do it is run the lanes at a specific time each week and advertise that you are going to do it.

I have been on both sides also. I have worked as a mechanic and as a manager and I see your point. But at the same time, if the lanes are really that difficult as in sport compliant, then all one would need to do is inform the next group. Is this extra work and require communication? Of course. But I worked the desk when I was a manager and if I set up lanes 17&18 with a difficult pattern and some league bowlers (or at least bowlers with their own equipment) came in, I would relay to them the conditions of the lanes. I do the same with all league bowlers irregardless if the shot is Chameleon or if the lanes haven't been oil since before last night's league followed by Glow Bowl and all day's play. For myself, I would be more upset at lanes that are torn up by league and open play than by a sport shot. But I also realize I am not everyone.

Djarum · « **Reply #35 on:** August 13, 2013, 08:27:19 AM »

Quote from: dR3w on August 12, 2013, 01:45:01 PM

Lots in our area. In my case I know dozens of one league bowlers who bowl in the state tournament, city tournament, and southeast tournament, as well as an occasional local handicap sweeper. There's probably a dozen of them that pot bowl all weekend, bowl in one league, and travel every month to Bluefield WV to bowl in their monthly tournament. Guys have to establish a handicap to bowl in these endeavors, so they limit it to one.

Not around here. Sure, they might bowl in state or city tournaments, but I rarely see those at most other tournaments. Most of the guys around here that bowl the regional tournaments usually bowl multiple leagues at multiple houses.

dR3w · « **Reply #36 on:** August 13, 2013, 09:10:22 AM »

I don't want to be accusatory, but there are a lot of people in my area that play "the game", when it comes to handicap ... but that is a topic for another thread ... and a subject has been beaten to death.

I am not really sure why I started this thread, because I know that fairness isn't a realistic concept. I think I was just looking for other people's opinions on that topic. I think most people took my topic to mean that having a tough league shot isn't fair, but that wasn't my intent. My thought was that with no USBC regulation on how tough shots can be in a sanctioned league, having people use league averages in handicap tournaments is totally unbalanced. Like comparing Apples and Oranges. And having the biggest men's league in our area use difficult shots when more than 1/2 of them will compete in the State Tournament isn't really equitable for those who don't bowl in that league, or who bowl in other areas of the state.

I don't even bother worrying about my handicap scores at handicap tournaments anymore. The only way for me to make anything is scratch brackets, or if they have a scratch division. When a 903 wins the state tournament singles event, that tells me all I need to know about my chances.

Quote from: Djarum on August 13, 2013, 08:27:19 AM

Quote from: dR3w on August 12, 2013, 01:45:01 PM
Lots in our area. In my case I know dozens of one league bowlers who bowl in the state tournament, city tournament, and southeast tournament, as well as an occasional local handicap sweeper. There's probably a dozen of them that pot bowl all weekend, bowl in one league, and travel every month to Bluefield WV to bowl in their monthly tournament. Guys have to establish a handicap to bowl in these endeavors, so they limit it to one.

Not around here. Sure, they might bowl in state or city tournaments, but I rarely see those at most other tournaments. Most of the guys around here that bowl the regional tournaments usually bowl multiple leagues at multiple houses.

dR3w · « **Reply #37 on:** August 23, 2013, 02:42:48 PM »

To follow up on this thread. Apparently the center owner, fearing a rash of teams quitting, had another league meeting. Several teams spoke out against the change, and the league relented and went back to the walled up house shot.

Imagine that.

milorafferty · « **Reply #38 on:** August 23, 2013, 04:48:58 PM »

Give them time dR3w, they will be complaining about the easy shot too. I bowl a scratch league were three years ago, we bowled on rotating USBC Red, White and Blue patterns. People complained that it was too hard, two years ago, we went with the standard house shot, which for that house was somewhat tough at the time with the top average at the house being about 215. The bowlers who bowled houses with higher averages complained, "it was too tough", last year the house got a new Kegel Kustodian and put out a walled up wonder shot. The league had 22 300 games, 7 800 series and the league average was around 230. At season end, bowlers said they might not be back because the league had become a "carry contest".

Bowlers bitch, it's what we do.

dR3w · « **Reply #39 on:** August 23, 2013, 04:53:18 PM »

Totally agree about the bitching. And exactly like you said, there were people at the meeting complaining about it being a carrying contest. In the end I guess it is easier to get the bowlers who want a challenge to conform to an easy shot then it is to get bowlers who want a pie shot to conform to a challenge.

Quote from: milorafferty on August 23, 2013, 04:48:58 PM

Give them time dR3w, they will be complaining about the easy shot too. I bowl a scratch league were three years ago, we bowled on rotating USBC Red, White and Blue patterns. People complained that it was too hard, two years ago, we went with the standard house shot, which for that house was somewhat tough at the time with the top average at the house being about 215. The bowlers who bowled houses with higher averages complained, "it was too tough", last year the house got a new Kegel Kustodian and put out a walled up wonder shot. The league had 22 300 games, 7 800 series and the league average was around 230. At season end, bowlers said they might not be back because the league had become a "carry contest".

Bowlers bitch, it's what we do.

On Further Review · « **Reply #40 on:** August 23, 2013, 05:26:16 PM »

How can anyone tell a true average anyway? There are good bowlers rolling on easy shots, good bowlers on tough shots, bad bowlers on easy shots and bad bowlers on tough shots. When you throw sandbagging into the mix, how can anyone tell if a bowler is really a 200 averager or a 175 averager or a 220 averager?

charlest · « **Reply #41 on:** August 23, 2013, 06:04:57 PM »

Quote from: dR3w on August 23, 2013, 02:42:48 PM

To follow up on this thread. Apparently the center owner, fearing a rash of teams quitting, had another league meeting. Several teams spoke out against the change, and the league relented and went back to the walled up house shot.

Imagine that.

I assume that a result of the "testing" our league did 2 weeks ago, we will be going from a medium-heavy, 4:1, ratio, semi-sport shot that took most bowlers (from 150 - 240 average) to at least 20 pin below their average to a medium-dry, 7:1 house pattern. My team which has one of the higher handicaps in the league will got from 4th place (out of 24 teams) to probably 12th to 15th place and almost everyone from team will probably vote for the easier patter, EXCEPT me.

Author Topic: Question about "Fairness" (Read 9485 times)

dR3w

Question about "Fairness"

spmcgivern

Re: Question about "Fairness"

itsallaboutme

Re: Question about "Fairness"

mrfrostee

Re: Question about "Fairness"

spmcgivern

Re: Question about "Fairness"

Djarum

Re: Question about "Fairness"

dR3w

Re: Question about "Fairness"

dR3w

Re: Question about "Fairness"

milorafferty

Re: Question about "Fairness"

dR3w

Re: Question about "Fairness"

On Further Review

Re: Question about "Fairness"

charlest

Re: Question about "Fairness"