BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: Gizmo823 on April 22, 2013, 01:02:18 PM
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http://sports.yahoo.com/news/north-carolina-man-rolls-1st-152314978--spt.html
Scroll down and read the comments. Some are more positive than I expected, but there's no denying the collective public opinion. HIGH SCORES ARE BAD FOR BOWLING, point and case. So unfortunate for this guy who REALLY accomplished something to have it regarded like this.
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The loudest people are not the majority. Yahoo articles are notoriously known for having the worst articles/comment sections around.
But, it still shows many people outside of bowling will never understand.
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Yes true, but it's this these kinds of people that bowling is being marketed to. How do we turn the ignorant people around?
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Because bowling is something that almost everybody has 'played', it is looked at differently. Professional bowling looks like regular bowling, so people make judgments about it based on their experiences.
There are far fewer people who make judgments or have opinions of more popular sports because they haven't experienced it on that same level. They leave professional football and its intricacies up to the professionals and announcers because they haven't done it. This could be one of the main reasons bowling is looked at from such a different perspective.
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It is a great score but I would say for most people entering the tournament a greater "accomplishment" would be to win the tournament. He's currently 16th and only 73 over for his other games of qualifying.
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Because bowling is something that almost everybody has 'played', it is looked at differently. Professional bowling looks like regular bowling, so people make judgments about it based on their experiences.
There are far fewer people who make judgments or have opinions of more popular sports because they haven't experienced it on that same level. They leave professional football and its intricacies up to the professionals and announcers because they haven't done it. This could be one of the main reasons bowling is looked at from such a different perspective.
You know, I generally agree with the above, but most people have also played golf. They don't play under the same conditions that the PGA does, yet they don't have the same opinion about golf that they do about bowling.
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Golf always makes for good comparisons. I know this has been stated before, but golf is so visually different. Seeing a pro swing 2X as hard as the average player is a pretty obvious difference. And of course there's the course.
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Yahoo news comment section? Seriously?
It's well known to be full of nothing but negative trolls and idiots. This is not the gauge of anyone that you should be holding up as an example of anything.
Bowling is not broken because people are scoring high. I don't know how you keep arriving at this conclusion, but it's patently absurd. I don't know a single soul who decided to bowl or decided against it based on the "ease of scoring too high".
The problem with bowling is that leagues are down because people are busy, broke, and the sport is viewed more in the cultural lexicon as an anachronistic recreation more than a sport....and this means new lanes aren't being built for serious competition, rather they are being built as family fun centers or night clubs.
Score is not the issue, never was...any more than people scoring better in the 1970's was a detriment compared to the 1940's or 1950's.
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granted i still bowl leagues and tournaments but if i know in advance im gonna need to average 230 just to make the cut ill save my money. most of the time i cant carry enough to average 230 for more than 3-4 games especially if im bowling a house i dont know very well
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Yahoo news comment section? Seriously?
It's well known to be full of nothing but negative trolls and idiots. This is not the gauge of anyone that you should be holding up as an example of anything.
Bowling is not broken because people are scoring high. I don't know how you keep arriving at this conclusion, but it's patently absurd. I don't know a single soul who decided to bowl or decided against it based on the "ease of scoring too high".
The problem with bowling is that leagues are down because people are busy, broke, and the sport is viewed more in the cultural lexicon as an anachronistic recreation more than a sport....and this means new lanes aren't being built for serious competition, rather they are being built as family fun centers or night clubs.
Score is not the issue, never was...any more than people scoring better in the 1970's was a detriment compared to the 1940's or 1950's.
I would like to believe this concept, but golf is more expensive and takes longer than bowling, yet the decline in golf is much smaller than bowling. Could it be the way the media pushes golf more than bowling? Perhaps. But at the same time, just because you haven't heard of someone quitting because of the scores doesn't mean they don't exist. In fact, I haven't heard of anyone QUITTING bowling because of the cost. Perhaps reduced their league and tournament participation, but not quit. Now if you said the fact people are busy and broke is the reason there aren't any NEW bowlers, then perhaps you would be on to something.
I think most people think if the shot were to become more difficult (not sport difficult), then some would quit. I am not disagreeing with this. But what needs to be considered is what does a successful sport of bowling look like in 10 or 20 years? We can't wait till some catastrophic moment to make changes to the sport. We need to develop a plan to get bowling to a successful sporting position. And today's game isn't getting us there.
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Yahoo news comment section? Seriously?
It's well known to be full of nothing but negative trolls and idiots. This is not the gauge of anyone that you should be holding up as an example of anything.
Bowling is not broken because people are scoring high. I don't know how you keep arriving at this conclusion, but it's patently absurd. I don't know a single soul who decided to bowl or decided against it based on the "ease of scoring too high".
The problem with bowling is that leagues are down because people are busy, broke, and the sport is viewed more in the cultural lexicon as an anachronistic recreation more than a sport....and this means new lanes aren't being built for serious competition, rather they are being built as family fun centers or night clubs.
Score is not the issue, never was...any more than people scoring better in the 1970's was a detriment compared to the 1940's or 1950's.
So you have several years of industry experience, seeing the numbers, hearing from industry vets, and people very heavily involved in the sport at a professional level to base this opinion on I'm assuming? "I don't know how you keep arriving at this conclusion." You think this is some idea or opinion that randomly popped into my head one day that I'm trying to make into my own personal crusade? Everybody wants to tell me about the CURRENT state of bowling, yes, DUH, I get how it currently is, I WORK IN THE INDUSTRY. But what everybody keeps skipping over is how it got there in the first place.
I'm not saying it's the ONLY reason, but it's THE reason that bowling has shifted from competitive to casual, and when a sport shifts down to casual, you don't have the same die hards keeping the sport alive. People won't bowl scratch leagues, because "the scores are too high." Scratch bowlers won't touch anything that has anything to do with handicap, because of all the sandbaggers. I had a team that almost got kicked out of a handicap league because we were accused of "loading up a team" to win the league. Win the league we did, and in impressive fashion. Know what our prize winnings were? 190 bucks a person. Just screams loading up a team to bowl 35 weeks to make less than 200 bucks, doesn't it? Got a buddy that's 35, averages 235, and he quit bowling last year because it all boiled down to carry. If he carries, he shoots 750+, if he doesn't, he shoots 680. Said he was sick of being disappointed every time he lost a shot at a big game or big set. If you don't shoot 300 or 800 anymore, it doesn't matter. Leagues are small, and people balk at increasing league fees to beef up the prize fund, so there's no reason to be competitive. The handicap bowlers don't practice, they just whine for more handicap so they don't HAVE to improve, and the scratch bowlers don't practice because you can't practice carry. In ADDITION to bowling several leagues a week, people also spent time practicing, because bowling used to be about how you threw the ball and where you threw it. Now you just have to hook it a bunch and throw it hard and keep it right of the headpin, and you'll have a good shot at some big games. Even SCRATCH leagues on house shots aren't that competitive anymore. People spend more time joking about, "just throw it anywhere," than they do congratulating people for good shots. Everybody knows it's a crap shoot and a carry contest, so it's hard to get into it when you know the outcome of the game is dependent on who leaves the 9 pin, or who carries the 10, instead of who is making the shots.
Bowling has been made into a constant quest for the big numbers, or just an inside activity during the winter to keep you occupied while you drink. The true competition for the scratch bowlers doesn't exist anymore, the lower average bowlers can't keep up, so they get discouraged and quit, and you can't count on the casual bowlers for any kind of consistency. I GUARANTEE if you return the integrity to bowling that the sport picks up again. How else do you explain the continuing decline of USBC membership as a whole, but the increase of interest and participation in sport bowling, especially by the youths, a group you'd never think would embrace extra challenge or work? Rick Benoit has recently put some finishing touches on his BowlU endeavor, which should finally start getting bowling going in the right direction again. Mark my words, as the current generation bowler gets older and/or quits, the youth who are participating in high integrity bowling will push for a return to how bowling used to be, or at the very least to adjust it for modern times, and bowling will go back up when the scoring pace goes down.
Things that are going good will survive ANY economical problems. The NFL and PGA don't seem to know we had a recession, so why is that an acceptable excuse for bowling? Amateur participation rates have ZERO to do with a professional sport's success. I've never played a game of tackle football in my life, but I'll watch it every Sunday. Bowling takes all my golf money, so I don't golf much, but I still watch a lot on tv. Several things may have contributed to bringing bowling down, but it only takes one domino falling to knock the rest of them down.
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I think one of the problems is perception; professional bowling is caught b/w a rock and a hard place when it comes to demographs. It's not luxurious enough to attract the rich and famous like golf and it's not cool enough to resonate with the younger generations like other sports.
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Again, what is the incentive for scoring pace to be lowered?
Tradition is not the answer
Because it was that way when bowling was at its peak? Not the answer. Even at bowling's peak, the pro tour stops had maybe 400 entries per stop. 150 entries in the qualifier.
Until someone somewhere figures out how the top 200 professional bowlers on the tour can earn 6-7 figure salaries like all the other sports, there is no financial incentive for anyone to put in the time and effort to become one of the best.
Right now, if you are not top 100 in the world at this sport, you can earn more working your 9-5 job and come home each night, sleep in your own bed and kiss your wife and children goodnight.
Most of the people who bowl for a living, are the die-hards.
You have a child who excels at both golf and bowling. You are going tell me that you are going to tell your child to give up the million dollar career at golf and focus on that $50,000 a yr bowling career. What parent is going to tell their child to do that.
I don't care what the scoring pace is. No money = no increasing membership
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Again, what is the incentive for scoring pace to be lowered?
Tradition is not the answer
Because it was that way when bowling was at its peak? Not the answer. Even at bowling's peak, the pro tour stops had maybe 400 entries per stop. 150 entries in the qualifier.
Until someone somewhere figures out how the top 200 professional bowlers on the tour can earn 6-7 figure salaries like all the other sports, there is no financial incentive for anyone to put in the time and effort to become one of the best.
Right now, if you are not top 100 in the world at this sport, you can earn more working your 9-5 job and come home each night, sleep in your own bed and kiss your wife and children goodnight.
Most of the people who bowl for a living, are the die-hards.
You have a child who excels at both golf and bowling. You are going tell me that you are going to tell your child to give up the million dollar career at golf and focus on that $50,000 a yr bowling career. What parent is going to tell their child to do that.
I don't care what the scoring pace is. No money = no increasing membership
But the money was lost when the scoring pace increased . . when the scoring pace made no different between the pros and amateurs apparent, that's when bowling went downhill. When people stop participating and/or watching, money goes downhill. Things have to change to bring the money back, it's not going to magically show back up on its own.
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You and I just have to agree to disagree on this one.
I think the money has to come first and I do not believe scoring pace will bring it.
I do however think that if the money rose the the levels of other sports, then bowlers would join the ranks as they would have financial incentive to do so.
Just like poker. Once the tournaments starting paying major bucks, people quit their day jobs to become professional poker players. The same thing would need to happen for "professional" bowling to blossom.
If you believe that lowering the scoring pace will ultimately fix bowling, it will be a slow 10-20 year process. However, money could turn it around much faster. In a couple of years. But someone has to have that major idea for the money to happen.
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Golf has attracted a younger market then bowling. The many youth getting involved in golf can go see the PGA because the PGA tours the country. The PBA has condensed 90% or its National "Tour" to one location.
Does not tour
Bolwing= Lame
Does tour
Golf= Cool
Basketball= Cool
Football= Cool
Baseball= Cool
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Sucks that this guy shot 900 and didn't make match play cut.
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Lowering the scoring pace of bowling as a panacea to "heal" bowling is just so patently simplistic and would prove to be so ineffective over the years the idea should be dropped immediately. What proponents of that absurd idea forget is skill is skill, higher skilled people will still score higher than lesser skilled players no matter how much the overall bar has been lowered or raised. It's all relative. I have no idea why some people can't get this thru their heads.
The reasons that bowling membership is down have already been mentioned. High scoring isn't one of them. I also don't know of anybody hat quit because of scores being to high but there are some people that I sure wish would so they'd quit posting the same nonsense over and over.
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re scoring enviroment, Dick Weber was ave 240 plus in his house league some 50yrs ago, now we have many more bowlers around 225 +, so I think scoring isn't the genuine reason people have left the sport... There are so many other reasons..
Less disposable income, technology (internet, Iphone, Playstations/X box), public perception of bowling, work schedules, lack of promotion and a hundred other reasons..
I think getting the kids into leagues and bowling in general has to be a big priority, amongst several here... Who is coming through in 20 yrs time.. I read the average Joe Bowler is around 53yrs of age. Quoting from memory here... There will be a large percentage droppin off over that period..
Feel free to rip me apart for this baseless comment here.. But kids are too bloody lazy in general.. They want it now, and don't want to have to work overly hard for anything.. I work with kids, have 3 of my own, but they have many other options to spend their valuable leisure time on and soothe their egos (very much like some house bowlers we all know at our centers)..
Bowling takes time, and it is frustrating, and it can be soul destroying. If bowling was seen as "the coolest" thing to do, the kids would be all over it..So promotion and perception of bowling both have to have a bit of a makeover here..
Bowling needs to get it's face out there for all to see, not just the people who are already interested in the sport..Lower the scores, fine, but u need more than just that.
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Lowering the scoring pace of bowling as a panacea to "heal" bowling is just so patently simplistic and would prove to be so ineffective over the years the idea should be dropped immediately. What proponents of that absurd idea forget is skill is skill, higher skilled people will still score higher than lesser skilled players no matter how much the overall bar has been lowered or raised. It's all relative. I have no idea why some people can't get this thru their heads.
The reasons that bowling membership is down have already been mentioned. High scoring isn't one of them. I also don't know of anybody hat quit because of scores being to high but there are some people that I sure wish would so they'd quit posting the same nonsense over and over.
So I assume you still play tic tac toe on a regular basis? I'm not going to deny that your points all have very applicable validity. But it's a lot easier to hit a 6 board area than to hit a 2 board area. Games that lack challenge or fail to constantly challenge people won't get very far. I've averaged within 2 or 3 pins for the last 5 or 6 years now even though I've physically gotten better and have gotten much smarter. However, on a house shot there's a cap, and when you get a bunch of guys together that average 220+ it's really a crapshoot as to who is gonna win. At the same time, my average and performance on sport conditions has continued to go up. Why is that? If I'm getting better and more accurate, why doesn't my house shot average continue to go up? You may have guys that can hit a 2 board area every time, but if you add some guys in that can hit 3-4 boards out of a 6 board area, they're equal. If you added 6 inches to the diameter of a basketball goal, Shaq's free throw percentage would go up pretty significantly, but you can't then compare him to Reggie Miller, even if the numbers are closer. The better bowler wins significantly fewer times on a house shot than they would on a tougher shot. Just because you haven't been around people or known people that made a decision on bowling based on the scoring pace doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I don't want to name drop or add names to this conversation that don't want to be a part of it, but I know several professionally successful people who don't bowl anymore specifically because of the scoring pace. If it's on a house shot or or involves handicap, they won't bowl, so by default, they just don't bowl much anymore. Have several collegiate friends that don't bowl leagues during the season, but they'll come bowl our PBA Exp league in the summer.
You also can't tell me that if the PGA made the cups bigger, made fairways wider, made courses shorter, and we started seeing sub 60 rounds out of the pros consistently that golf wouldn't fall off the face of the earth. Golf is respected and popular because of the challenge it offers. Bowling offers no such challenge. And I don't want to hear "well bowling is still challenging to a lot of people." So is golf, but it's the degree of challenge. The further above 200 you get, the more your score depends on carry, and when hitting the pocket isn't a challenge, winning or losing on a high scoring condition is based almost entirely on carry. A stone 8 here, and a ring 10 here is the difference between 300 and 258. A stone 8 and a ring ten in the middle of a dutch 200 is the difference between 200 and 198. Economics have driven people away from bowling, yes, but they are CHOOSING other activities OVER bowling because bowling doesn't offer the challenge, nor the rewards that other sports/games do. Bowling wasn't ever as lucrative as other sports, but when titles were worth 25k in the late 80's, that was a hell of a lot of money back then.
You can't tell me that a game without any appreciable difficulty will sustain participation, and the numbers support that. The membership decline corresponds directly with the increase in averages and honor scores. Other economical factors DO contribute, BUT if you'll look at the numbers, the decline and change happened a significant amount of time before the economy had anything to do with it. This was pre 9-11, gas was still under 1.50, people had jobs. Other sports continue to rise despite the economy, so you can't use the argument that the economy alone despite every other factor is to blame, because if it was, it would have the same effect across the board. I've got a lot of time in this, I have a lot of experience in this, and have several very big names in the industry that share the same opinions and read the information the same way I read it. Lack of challenge, lack of information, lack of coaching, and lack of integrity has run this sport into the ground, case closed.
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Gizmo,
Case closed! You HAVE convinced yourself! I'm convinced of it!
Regards,
Luckylefty
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I'm not going to deny that your points all have very applicable validity. But it's a lot easier to hit a 6 board area than to hit a 2 board area. Games that lack challenge or fail to constantly challenge people won't get very far. I've averaged within 2 or 3 pins for the last 5 or 6 years now even though I've physically gotten better and have gotten much smarter. However, on a house shot there's a cap, and when you get a bunch of guys together that average 220+ it's really a crapshoot as to who is gonna win.
Yes, sometimes LGD gets lucky and posts valid points. Maybe it's a little like the 6-board area you discuss. :)
From personal experience, I just can't agree that it's a mindless crapshoot when you put a bunch of 220+ bowlers together. I bowl in one of the best THS scratch leagues in SoCal. If you examined the league sheets over the past 10 years, you'd see the same relative pecking order one year after the next. It hardly ever changes over the course of a 100+ game season. Skill always wins out over the long run. The guys who can apply sport shot level skill to the THS are flat out more consistent, and consistency means a higher average. I've never seen a variant to the phenomena in the many upper crust leagues I've bowled over the past 15 years.
If you're physically better and smarter but still not improving on your THS, you're not focusing on the right skills to improve your average. To be really good (235-240) on a THS isn't luck. Especially study the older guys doing it and you'll understand where to focus.
As far as the 'decline", you'd need to go back in time to the so called glory days of bowling. The work world was dominated by blue collar types who worked 8-5 jobs. There were exactly 3 channels on TV to watch (ABC, NBC, CBS). "Cable" was something used in construction. All phones had cords and you dialed with a disk punched with holes for your fingers -- there was nothing 'smart' about them. There was no Internet to provide endless hours of mindless enjoyment. It was a much more limited world in which to live. Bowling was one of the few outside activities at the time, and people flocked to the lanes. The world is upside down now. That old reality doesn't exist anymore.
As has been stated by many earlier, scoring has nothing to do with it.
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I'm not going to deny that your points all have very applicable validity. But it's a lot easier to hit a 6 board area than to hit a 2 board area. Games that lack challenge or fail to constantly challenge people won't get very far. I've averaged within 2 or 3 pins for the last 5 or 6 years now even though I've physically gotten better and have gotten much smarter. However, on a house shot there's a cap, and when you get a bunch of guys together that average 220+ it's really a crapshoot as to who is gonna win.
Yes, sometimes LGD gets lucky and posts valid points. Maybe it's a little like the 6-board area you discuss. :)
From personal experience, I just can't agree that it's a mindless crapshoot when you put a bunch of 220+ bowlers together. I bowl in one of the best THS scratch leagues in SoCal. If you examined the league sheets over the past 10 years, you'd see the same relative pecking order one year after the next. It hardly ever changes over the course of a 100+ game season. Skill always wins out over the long run. The guys who can apply sport shot level skill to the THS are flat out more consistent, and consistency means a higher average. I've never seen a variant to the phenomena in the many upper crust leagues I've bowled over the past 15 years.
If you're physically better and smarter but still not improving on your THS, you're not focusing on the right skills to improve your average. To be really good (235-240) on a THS isn't luck. Especially study the older guys doing it and you'll understand where to focus.
As far as the 'decline", you'd need to go back in time to the so called glory days of bowling. The work world was dominated by blue collar types who worked 8-5 jobs. There were exactly 3 channels on TV to watch (ABC, NBC, CBS). "Cable" was something used in construction. All phones had cords and you dialed with a disk punched with holes for your fingers -- there was nothing 'smart' about them. There was no Internet to provide endless hours of mindless enjoyment. It was a much more limited world in which to live. Bowling was one of the few outside activities at the time, and people flocked to the lanes. The world is upside down now. That old reality doesn't exist anymore.
As has been stated by many earlier, scoring has nothing to do with it.
yep! Somtimes steven makes points with no trace of pompousness. ;D
But, truly, his last sentence really says it all, scoring has nothing to do with it. Let it go, already.
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So you're saying guys like Pete Weber and Belmonte would win just as many games against a local pro on a house shot as they would on a PBA shot?
You can't practice carry. So why does my sport average continue to go up while my house average stays the same? The house shots have not changed in years, while the PBA patterns change every 2 weeks.
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So you're saying guys like Pete Weber and Belmonte would win just as many games against a local pro on a house shot as they would on a PBA shot?
You can't practice carry. So why does my sport average continue to go up while my house average stays the same? The house shots have not changed in years, while the PBA patterns change every 2 weeks.
I'm absolutely saying the touring pros should dominate on a house shot against the local and Regional hacks. I've seen it first hand. When Robert Smith was still living locally during his peak years, he dominated our scratch league. In his last year with us, he averaged 241 in the winter league (during breaks in tour stops). In his last summer league with us, he averaged 237, exclusively using a plastic Storm Soccer Ball. Nobody doubted the gulf between him and the rest of us.
To your second point, as far as carry goes it's something you actually can practice. There really is a reason for bowlers leaving 10 pin after 10 pin, or can't get the 7 pin out on many medium hits. I'd have to watch you to provide any constructive input, but there is always a reason. As far as your sport shot average, it's going up because naturally, there is so much more room to improve. This is true for most of us.
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So you're saying guys like Pete Weber and Belmonte would win just as many games against a local pro on a house shot as they would on a PBA shot?
You can't practice carry. So why does my sport average continue to go up while my house average stays the same? The house shots have not changed in years, while the PBA patterns change every 2 weeks.
I'm absolutely saying the touring pros should dominate on a house shot against the local and Regional hacks. I've seen it first hand. When Robert Smith was still living locally during his peak years, he dominated our scratch league. In his last year with us, he averaged 241 in the winter league (during breaks in tour stops). In his last summer league with us, he averaged 237, exclusively using a plastic Storm Soccer Ball. Nobody doubted the gulf between him and the rest of us.
To your second point, as far as carry goes it's something you actually can practice. There really is a reason for bowlers leaving 10 pin after 10 pin, or can't get the 7 pin out on many medium hits. I'd have to watch you to provide any constructive input, but there is always a reason. As far as your sport shot average, it's going up because naturally, there is so much more room to improve. This is true for most of us.
I'm not talking about leaving the same pin several times, I'm talking about leaving a 9 pin in the 4th and a solid 7 in the 9th to shoot 258 and lose to a guy that tripped a 4 pin, and caved the big 4 for 260-something. I don't like keeping every shot within 3 boards and losing to a guy who has the 4 board AND the 12 board. My 258 would still be 220+ while his 260-something is in the 190s on a tougher shot.
So Robert Smith won every single match then I take it? The only way it's fair or even in my mind is if the exact same amount of games are won on a house shot as compared to a sport shot. If he wins 8 out of 10 on a house shot, but wins 10 out of 10 against the same guys on a sport shot, that's not right.
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While the cream will rise to the top over the long haul the biggest issue I have seen with a carry fest is how much your score can be affected by when you get tapped.
Say you and your opponent both throw 12 quality shots and each one of you leaves a solid 8 pin on one shot.
Depending on when that tap occurs you can shoot from 279 to 299. Up to a 20 pin difference in situation where neither bowler threw a non-quality shot.
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I'm not talking about leaving the same pin several times, I'm talking about leaving a 9 pin in the 4th and a solid 7 in the 9th to shoot 258 and lose to a guy that tripped a 4 pin, and caved the big 4 for 260-something. I don't like keeping every shot within 3 boards and losing to a guy who has the 4 board AND the 12 board. My 258 would still be 220+ while his 260-something is in the 190s on a tougher shot.
So Robert Smith won every single match then I take it? The only way it's fair or even in my mind is if the exact same amount of games are won on a house shot as compared to a sport shot. If he wins 8 out of 10 on a house shot, but wins 10 out of 10 against the same guys on a sport shot, that's not right.
No, Robert didn't win every match. It wasn't a scrub league -- lots of quality players. He occasionally lost some to guys who happened to throw a little better in a given match, and he lost a few when the other guy got some fortunate carry. Heck, I was even able to steal a game or two from him.
The point is that he won most of his matches. He was top dog in every measurable category. That's all that matters and was the point I was trying to make. I'll occasionally lose match points to a lesser skilled player because they'll just sometimes execute better than me, and for the same reason, I'll sometimes beat the guys a notch up from me. That's true at all levels of competition, regardless of the pattern.
Everybody leaves stone 9-pins, stone 8-pins, and stone 7-pins. Everybody. We just happen to remember the ones that beat us. That's human nature. The only way to logically look at this is what happens in the longer term. It all evens out. The more skilled guys are going to end up on top.
Your question about comparative wins on a sport shot is interesting. Unfortunately, we rarely get to meet the same set of bowlers on different conditions. I will say that on really tough sport shots, I'll sometimes see a guy who can throw straight beat players they would never beat on a THS. They aren't more skilled, they simply found a way to overcome pure grunge. There aren't any absolutes here.
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So you're saying guys like Pete Weber and Belmonte would win just as many games against a local pro on a house shot as they would on a PBA shot?
You can't practice carry. So why does my sport average continue to go up while my house average stays the same? The house shots have not changed in years, while the PBA patterns change every 2 weeks.
I'm absolutely saying the touring pros should dominate on a house shot against the local and Regional hacks. I've seen it first hand. When Robert Smith was still living locally during his peak years, he dominated our scratch league. In his last year with us, he averaged 241 in the winter league (during breaks in tour stops). In his last summer league with us, he averaged 237, exclusively using a plastic Storm Soccer Ball. Nobody doubted the gulf between him and the rest of us.
To your second point, as far as carry goes it's something you actually can practice. There really is a reason for bowlers leaving 10 pin after 10 pin, or can't get the 7 pin out on many medium hits. I'd have to watch you to provide any constructive input, but there is always a reason. As far as your sport shot average, it's going up because naturally, there is so much more room to improve. This is true for most of us.
I'm not talking about leaving the same pin several times, I'm talking about leaving a 9 pin in the 4th and a solid 7 in the 9th to shoot 258 and lose to a guy that tripped a 4 pin, and caved the big 4 for 260-something. I don't like keeping every shot within 3 boards and losing to a guy who has the 4 board AND the 12 board. My 258 would still be 220+ while his 260-something is in the 190s on a tougher shot.
So Robert Smith won every single match then I take it? The only way it's fair or even in my mind is if the exact same amount of games are won on a house shot as compared to a sport shot. If he wins 8 out of 10 on a house shot, but wins 10 out of 10 against the same guys on a sport shot, that's not right.
Again, this is just sour grapes about losing to somebody your colossal ego won't allow you to believe you can lose to. You've had about 90% of respondents tell you that scoring pace has nothing to do with reduced numbers of league bowlers. That really should tell you something.
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Ah Carry?
I saw the fella that shot the 900, he had a style that oozed of carry. Similar to other wonderful carry bowlers he had an early thumb release, a long flat spot, a lot of natural loft, and a great amount of leg drive in his final step.
Very similar to some of the best league and carry bowlers I have seen.
One of the qualifying leaders of this awesome senior tournament did not used to a high carry bowler, was several years ago a mediocre carry bowler while being a well known sport condition expert.
Over the last 10 years he has dramatically improved his league averages and slightly increased his sport condition results.
He made changes in his game which included a faster thumb, a focus on his flat spot and amount of loft(increased it), less focus on splicing boards at the arrows, and a slight reduction in speed to match his rev rate(especially under pressure).
While still being a great PBA condition bowler he has recorded averages over 20 pins higher than he was down to 10 years ago.
As to the condition where all these great scores were shot on this PBA condition many very very good bowlers had many a shot miss the head pin on this condition particularly if they had axis rotations of over 35 degrees.
Great carry on league conditions is its own art/science.
REgards,
Luckylefty
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I have been in the camp where I believe the house shot needs to be changed. And though I feel high scores aren't necessarily the reason for the demise of bowling, I have seen bowlers bowl in less competitive environments because of it. In a league, I agree with those that say the cream will rise to the top. The team that wins a league, or teams that finishes high, probably bowled the best. (or at least managed their average the best)
But where I have the issue is the way USBC manages the house shot. We have people who don't even bowl dictating how the shot is laid out. We have mechanics who may not deserve their lowly pay responsible for the upkeep and maintenance of $30,000+ pieces of machinery; the single most important piece of equipment at the bowling center. Will this change, most likely not. But I believe the THS needs to be better developed to appeal to a wider range of bowlers. I have seen 20:1 ratios which is simply ridiculous. I have seen shots where crankers cannot score and shots where strokers cannot score. I am willing to bet bowlers could score BETTER with ratios closer to the Challenge Shots by Kegel after a complete season. (around 8:1) And USBC needs to do a better job of ensuring houses are complying. As of now, most centers know when they are getting inspected and apply a shot accordingly. Once they are inspected, back to a possible illegal shot. And don't get me started on managers or owners setting up the shot to cater only to them and those who throw like them.
And lastly, bowlers are quitting because of high scores and easy shots. It may not be leagues, but they are quitting tournament bowling because of it. Count me in on that one. Of course, having the tournaments on weekends doesn't help either. Tough giving up weekends with a new son, so maybe I stopped for multiple reasons.
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Two things in this thread that grind my gears:
1. Comparing bowling to golf. Bowling will NEVER have the respect golf has. The reason is simple. Bowling is relatively easy to pick up and play. Someone who has never bowled before can throw the balls straight, hit the head pin once or twice, and assume they could strike every time if they just bowled once a week. There is no lane condition that can solve this problem... atraight is straight on any pattern. With golf, most people don't hit one straight the entire first time they play, and routinely swing and miss or fail to get the ball lifted off the ground.
2. Why do bowlers always have the opinion that the best bowlers should win every time? In what other sport does that happen? How did you guys do with your NCAA brackets this year? I assume you picked the higher seed to win every game.
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Two things in this thread that grind my gears:
1. Comparing bowling to golf. Bowling will NEVER have the respect golf has. The reason is simple. Bowling is relatively easy to pick up and play. Someone who has never bowled before can throw the balls straight, hit the head pin once or twice, and assume they could strike every time if they just bowled once a week. There is no lane condition that can solve this problem... atraight is straight on any pattern. With golf, most people don't hit one straight the entire first time they play, and routinely swing and miss or fail to get the ball lifted off the ground.
2. Why do bowlers always have the opinion that the best bowlers should win every time? In what other sport does that happen? How did you guys do with your NCAA brackets this year? I assume you picked the higher seed to win every game.
1. It's a common comparison, meaning golf is used most often in bowling comparisons, so I went with it. But yes, golf is by nature a much tougher sport, however, hitting the headpin isn't by any means an indication of being accurate, but the house shot makes it easier to have "success" quicker than golf allows. Then again, if fairways were wider, and the cups were bigger, golf handicaps go down. I like my chances against Tiger a lot more on a 120 yard par 3 with a foot diameter cup than I do on a 190 yard par 3 with a regulation cup.
2. Comparing bowling to the NCAA tournament is worse than comparing it to golf. If the NCAA tournament was best 3 out of 5, or even 2 out of 3, I GUARANTEE you the results are wildly different. In EVERY other sport this happens. The better player or better team should win the most, point and case. Nobody ever said they should win every time, but here's my biggest point. I have seen it, personally witnessed and been a part of PBA bowlers competing on PBA patterns and on house patterns with house guys or amateurs. Rick Benoit lives here in town, and when he was on staff with Brunswick, all their staffers would come to town for a week or two every single year to have a preseason "camp." In the evenings, they would always do something different and make a fan night out of it. We occasionally had exhibition matches, where they would bowl our scratch league with us, and our scratch bowlers would bowl with them on PBA shots. The pros won decisively more matches on PBA patterns than house patterns. Now, you might say if there's 7-8 pros putting their scores up against 35-40 scratch bowlers that the odds are in the scratch bowlers favor. On a house shot, yes. But while the pros are putting up 250s and 260s on a house shot while some guys are shooting 270s and 280s, as soon as we hit the PBA patterns, the pros are still shooting 250s and 260s. Venture a guess on what the scratch bowlers were shooting? *crickets*
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I think you think that I'm against your point... I actually prefer harder lane conditions. I don't think it's necessarily causing the demise of bowling, but it certainly isn't helping.
1. I understand golf is commonly compared to bowling. That's what annoys me. The comparisons often make no sense. I'm not disagreeing with you that easier golf courses would be easier, which is the very obvious point you seem to be trying to make. (Though I do doubt your ability to beat Tiger, regardless of the size of the cup).
2. Ok, if you'd prefer a sport that requires a several game series, theTampa Bay lightning won the Stanley Cup last year as an 8 seed. It took them several best of 7 series to get there. Honestly, did you really GUARANTEE that making the NCAA tournament a Multi game set would change the outcome? Isn't that completely obvious? You're missing the point: the tournament is exciting because anyone can win on any given day, even if the best of the best tend to end up winning it all most of the time. That's what makes sports fun to watch, and thats what makes sports fun to play. Any given day, any given series. What makes bowling different? Why aren't good bowlers allowed to lose a game occasionally? Do you honestly believe that if the PBA bowlers you had around bowled league, they wouldn't dominate over the course of the year? I'm feeling very confident in saying that they were shooting consistent 250s and 260s, while the guys who were "beating" them only threw one good game and lost to the pros in series.
On the flip side, last year I bowled against a fairly recent PBA rookie of the year on our PBA summer league. I don't average 200 on sport shots, but he got some bad breaks and I beat him 2 out of 3. Does that make me a better bowler than him, or is it possible that even the best players lose occasionally?
Again, I'm not debating you that harder shots would be better in the long run for bowling. I'm just pointing out general flaws in the arguments.
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I think you think that I'm against your point... I actually prefer harder lane conditions. I don't think it's necessarily causing the demise of bowling, but it certainly isn't helping.
1. I understand golf is commonly compared to bowling. That's what annoys me. The comparisons often make no sense. I'm not disagreeing with you that easier golf courses would be easier, which is the very obvious point you seem to be trying to make. (Though I do doubt your ability to beat Tiger, regardless of the size of the cup).
2. Ok, if you'd prefer a sport that requires a several game series, theTampa Bay lightning won the Stanley Cup last year as an 8 seed. It took them several best of 7 series to get there. Honestly, did you really GUARANTEE that making the NCAA tournament a Multi game set would change the outcome? Isn't that completely obvious? You're missing the point: the tournament is exciting because anyone can win on any given day, even if the best of the best tend to end up winning it all most of the time. That's what makes sports fun to watch, and thats what makes sports fun to play. Any given day, any given series. What makes bowling different? Why aren't good bowlers allowed to lose a game occasionally? Do you honestly believe that if the PBA bowlers you had around bowled league, they wouldn't dominate over the course of the year? I'm feeling very confident in saying that they were shooting consistent 250s and 260s, while the guys who were "beating" them only threw one good game and lost to the pros in series.
On the flip side, last year I bowled against a fairly recent PBA rookie of the year on our PBA summer league. I don't average 200 on sport shots, but he got some bad breaks and I beat him 2 out of 3. Does that make me a better bowler than him, or is it possible that even the best players lose occasionally?
Again, I'm not debating you that harder shots would be better in the long run for bowling. I'm just pointing out general flaws in the arguments.
Yeah, but again, I'm not saying pros should win every single game regardless, there's gonna be some exceptions and abberations. I'm sure the PBA pros would dominate our scratch league over the course of a season . . but they wouldn't win as many games as they should. They're gonna get 300/800 shot at them occasionally, they're gonna have off nights, but on a PBA shot, I will guarantee that they will win more times than they would on a house shot. I also come from a pro shop point of view too. Somebody shoots 300 that has no business doing it and all the sudden they know everything. Can't talk to them, can't coach them, and especially can't keep them from spreading their horrifically wrong ideas around to friends who actually listen to them and won't listen to us.
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Ah Gizmo you are talking about the irrationality of intermittent results.
Greg Norman could never draw an iron into a left to right wind and was not necessarily from what I have heard the easiest to coach.
Many people mistake good results as good technique and we know good technique shows up over time but for some may fall apart under pressure depending on (well you know). Also short term results in bowling can happen from the funkiest techniques but not necessarily in golf, (small margin of error to even get the ball up in the air).
I see bowling as a lot like basketball many people can look good at it if Michael Jordan is not guarding them. Golf few look good and can score good(with only 10% of golfers breaking 90).
As to 900 turning people off. While an unfortunate family event had me miss the 900(the only squad we had planned to go to). For the next couple of days the excitement in the crowd was palpable. Many old crumbs hoping he would fail to make the cut(of course they are always around), many were more enthusiastic enjoying his throwing, His outgoing and calm demeaner, and the high scoring pace of the leaders.
I sensed nothing but a heightened interest after the incredible scoring because on many lanes there were splits, and missed head pin strike throws by bowling regional champs and senior PBA stars. Not a cake shot unless you were Darn good!
Excitement! Progress. It was Palpable! People love high scoring some of the time!
I'm still excited by watching Bob Learn throw his awesome TV series. Of course their is a need for a US open condition....but not every week!
REgards,
Luckylefty
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Ah Carry?
One of the qualifying leaders of this awesome senior tournament did not used to a high carry bowler, was several years ago a mediocre carry bowler while being a well known sport condition expert.
Over the last 10 years he has dramatically improved his league averages and slightly increased his sport condition results.
He made changes in his game which included a faster thumb, a focus on his flat spot and amount of loft(increased it), less focus on splicing boards at the arrows, and a slight reduction in speed to match his rev rate(especially under pressure).
While still being a great PBA condition bowler he has recorded averages over 20 pins higher than he was down to 10 years ago.
As to the condition where all these great scores were shot on this PBA condition many very very good bowlers had many a shot miss the head pin on this condition particularly if they had axis rotations of over 35 degrees.
Great carry on league conditions is its own art/science.
REgards,
Luckylefty
Who are you speaking of Lucky?
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In bowling's "hay -day" bowlers could not purchase a "hook-in - box" like now. Bowlers scored because of their ability, not because of the equipment they could buy. But the computer assisted engineering age is here to stay and we can't go back to plastic balls with pancake weight blocks. Golf has experienced the same problem. Golf courses that used to require a driver and a 4 iron are now a driver and a wedge. The big difference is a guy named TIGER WOODS! Bowling has yet to find a comparable "phenom" that fans will pay big bucks to watch.
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In bowling's "hay -day" bowlers could not purchase a "hook-in - box" like now. Bowlers scored because of their ability, not because of the equipment they could buy. But the computer assisted engineering age is here to stay and we can't go back to plastic balls with pancake weight blocks. Golf has experienced the same problem. Golf courses that used to require a driver and a 4 iron are now a driver and a wedge. The big difference is a guy named TIGER WOODS! Bowling has yet to find a comparable "phenom" that fans will pay big bucks to watch.
Newer golf courses have adapted and have made the conditions tougher to fit the challenge, and by the nature of the game, the only way bowling could have a phenom is if they went to a similar format, so many games, total pins wins the tournament. With one game matches on tv, it's a complete crapshoot. How many times have we seen a guy that dominated the entire week lose on tv?
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I haven't read all of this, but easy house shots especially in youth bowling are killing the potential that some of the young bowlers have. Once they try something with a 5:1 or less ratio they cannot score, get discouraged and quit.
All house shots do is inflate averages. Why would you want an inflated average and then go to a tournament and suck because they put out a challenge pattern or sport shot? Why not have a league pattern that is difficult and then actually have a chance at making some money at a tournament.
I'm learning this first hand. I got back into bowling 5 years ago after a 13 year absence from the sport. I bowled only one league and became complacent. I didn't need to think at all during league. Just throw the ball, you can miss you spot by 5 boards in either direction and stay in the pocket.
Now I've been bowling some ABT tournaments and it's been an eye opener. Averaging a measly 161, about a 40 pin drop, because they put out challenging patterns forcing me to play outside of my "comfort zone". Easy house shots have set me back in the tournament environment. I'm working on my game as much as I can to get better on more difficult patterns.