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Author Topic: Yahoo news article on PBA 900, the comments say it all  (Read 9354 times)

Gizmo823

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Yahoo news article on PBA 900, the comments say it all
« on: April 22, 2013, 01:02:18 PM »
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/north-carolina-man-rolls-1st-152314978--spt.html

Scroll down and read the comments.  Some are more positive than I expected, but there's no denying the collective public opinion.  HIGH SCORES ARE BAD FOR BOWLING, point and case.  So unfortunate for this guy who REALLY accomplished something to have it regarded like this. 
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spmcgivern

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Re: Yahoo news article on PBA 900, the comments say it all
« Reply #31 on: April 29, 2013, 08:56:34 AM »
I have been in the camp where I believe the house shot needs to be changed.  And though I feel high scores aren't necessarily the reason for the demise of bowling, I have seen bowlers bowl in less competitive environments because of it.  In a league, I agree with those that say the cream will rise to the top.  The team that wins a league, or teams that finishes high, probably bowled the best.  (or at least managed their average the best) 

But where I have the issue is the way USBC manages the house shot.  We have people who don't even bowl dictating how the shot is laid out.  We have mechanics who may not deserve their lowly pay responsible for the upkeep and maintenance of $30,000+ pieces of machinery; the single most important piece of equipment at the bowling center.  Will this change, most likely not.  But I believe the THS needs to be better developed to appeal to a wider range of bowlers.  I have seen 20:1 ratios which is simply ridiculous.  I have seen shots where crankers cannot score and shots where strokers cannot score.  I am willing to bet bowlers could score BETTER with ratios closer to the Challenge Shots by Kegel after a complete season.  (around 8:1)  And USBC needs to do a better job of ensuring houses are complying.  As of now, most centers know when they are getting inspected and apply a shot accordingly.  Once they are inspected, back to a possible illegal shot.  And don't get me started on managers or owners setting up the shot to cater only to them and those who throw like them.

And lastly, bowlers are quitting because of high scores and easy shots.  It may not be leagues, but they are quitting tournament bowling because of it.  Count me in on that one.  Of course, having the tournaments on weekends doesn't help either.  Tough giving up weekends with a new son, so maybe I stopped for multiple reasons.
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HankScorpio

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Re: Yahoo news article on PBA 900, the comments say it all
« Reply #32 on: April 29, 2013, 03:17:38 PM »
Two things in this thread that grind my gears:
1.  Comparing bowling to golf.  Bowling will NEVER have the respect golf has.  The reason is simple.  Bowling is relatively easy to pick up and play.  Someone who has never bowled before can throw the balls straight, hit the head pin once or twice, and assume they could strike every time if they just bowled once a week.  There is no lane condition that can solve this problem... atraight is straight on any pattern.  With golf, most people don't hit one straight the entire first time they play, and routinely swing and miss or fail to get the ball lifted off the ground. 

2.  Why do bowlers always have the opinion that the best bowlers should win every time? In what other sport does that happen?  How did you guys do with your NCAA brackets this year?  I assume you picked the higher seed to win every game.
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Gizmo823

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Re: Yahoo news article on PBA 900, the comments say it all
« Reply #33 on: April 30, 2013, 09:07:31 AM »
Quote from: HankScorpio on April 29, 2013, 03:17:38 PM
Two things in this thread that grind my gears:
1.  Comparing bowling to golf.  Bowling will NEVER have the respect golf has.  The reason is simple.  Bowling is relatively easy to pick up and play.  Someone who has never bowled before can throw the balls straight, hit the head pin once or twice, and assume they could strike every time if they just bowled once a week.  There is no lane condition that can solve this problem... atraight is straight on any pattern.  With golf, most people don't hit one straight the entire first time they play, and routinely swing and miss or fail to get the ball lifted off the ground. 

2.  Why do bowlers always have the opinion that the best bowlers should win every time? In what other sport does that happen?  How did you guys do with your NCAA brackets this year?  I assume you picked the higher seed to win every game.

1.  It's a common comparison, meaning golf is used most often in bowling comparisons, so I went with it.  But yes, golf is by nature a much tougher sport, however, hitting the headpin isn't by any means an indication of being accurate, but the house shot makes it easier to have "success" quicker than golf allows.  Then again, if fairways were wider, and the cups were bigger, golf handicaps go down.  I like my chances against Tiger a lot more on a 120 yard par 3 with a foot diameter cup than I do on a 190 yard par 3 with a regulation cup. 

2.  Comparing bowling to the NCAA tournament is worse than comparing it to golf.  If the NCAA tournament was best 3 out of 5, or even 2 out of 3, I GUARANTEE you the results are wildly different.  In EVERY other sport this happens.  The better player or better team should win the most, point and case.  Nobody ever said they should win every time, but here's my biggest point.  I have seen it, personally witnessed and been a part of PBA bowlers competing on PBA patterns and on house patterns with house guys or amateurs.  Rick Benoit lives here in town, and when he was on staff with Brunswick, all their staffers would come to town for a week or two every single year to have a preseason "camp."  In the evenings, they would always do something different and make a fan night out of it.  We occasionally had exhibition matches, where they would bowl our scratch league with us, and our scratch bowlers would bowl with them on PBA shots.  The pros won decisively more matches on PBA patterns than house patterns.  Now, you might say if there's 7-8 pros putting their scores up against 35-40 scratch bowlers that the odds are in the scratch bowlers favor.  On a house shot, yes.  But while the pros are putting up 250s and 260s on a house shot while some guys are shooting 270s and 280s, as soon as we hit the PBA patterns, the pros are still shooting 250s and 260s.  Venture a guess on what the scratch bowlers were shooting?  *crickets*
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HankScorpio

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Re: Yahoo news article on PBA 900, the comments say it all
« Reply #34 on: April 30, 2013, 01:26:05 PM »
I think you think that I'm against your point... I actually prefer harder lane conditions.  I don't think it's necessarily causing the demise of bowling, but it certainly isn't helping.

1.  I understand golf is commonly compared to bowling.  That's what annoys me. The comparisons often make no sense.  I'm not disagreeing with you that easier golf courses would be easier, which is the very obvious point you seem to be trying to make.  (Though I do doubt your ability to beat Tiger, regardless of the size of the cup).

2. Ok, if you'd prefer a sport that requires a several game series, theTampa Bay lightning won the Stanley Cup last year as an 8 seed.  It took them several best of 7 series to get there.  Honestly, did you really GUARANTEE that making the NCAA tournament a Multi game set would change the outcome?  Isn't that completely obvious?  You're missing the point: the tournament is exciting because anyone can win on any given day, even if the best of the best tend to end up winning it all most of the time.  That's what makes sports fun to watch, and thats what makes sports fun to play.  Any given day, any given series.  What makes bowling different?  Why aren't good bowlers allowed to lose a game occasionally?  Do you honestly believe that if the PBA bowlers you had around bowled league, they wouldn't dominate over the course of the year?  I'm feeling very confident in saying that they were shooting consistent 250s and 260s, while the guys who were "beating" them only threw one good game and lost to the pros in series.

 On the flip side, last year I bowled against a fairly recent PBA rookie of the year on our PBA summer league.  I don't average 200 on sport shots, but he got some bad breaks and I beat him 2 out of 3.  Does that make me a better bowler than him, or is it possible that even the best players lose occasionally?

Again, I'm not debating you that harder shots would be better in the long run for bowling.  I'm just pointing out general flaws in the arguments.
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Gizmo823

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Re: Yahoo news article on PBA 900, the comments say it all
« Reply #35 on: April 30, 2013, 02:14:46 PM »
Quote from: HankScorpio on April 30, 2013, 01:26:05 PM
I think you think that I'm against your point... I actually prefer harder lane conditions.  I don't think it's necessarily causing the demise of bowling, but it certainly isn't helping.

1.  I understand golf is commonly compared to bowling.  That's what annoys me. The comparisons often make no sense.  I'm not disagreeing with you that easier golf courses would be easier, which is the very obvious point you seem to be trying to make.  (Though I do doubt your ability to beat Tiger, regardless of the size of the cup).

2. Ok, if you'd prefer a sport that requires a several game series, theTampa Bay lightning won the Stanley Cup last year as an 8 seed.  It took them several best of 7 series to get there.  Honestly, did you really GUARANTEE that making the NCAA tournament a Multi game set would change the outcome?  Isn't that completely obvious?  You're missing the point: the tournament is exciting because anyone can win on any given day, even if the best of the best tend to end up winning it all most of the time.  That's what makes sports fun to watch, and thats what makes sports fun to play.  Any given day, any given series.  What makes bowling different?  Why aren't good bowlers allowed to lose a game occasionally?  Do you honestly believe that if the PBA bowlers you had around bowled league, they wouldn't dominate over the course of the year?  I'm feeling very confident in saying that they were shooting consistent 250s and 260s, while the guys who were "beating" them only threw one good game and lost to the pros in series.

 On the flip side, last year I bowled against a fairly recent PBA rookie of the year on our PBA summer league.  I don't average 200 on sport shots, but he got some bad breaks and I beat him 2 out of 3.  Does that make me a better bowler than him, or is it possible that even the best players lose occasionally?

Again, I'm not debating you that harder shots would be better in the long run for bowling.  I'm just pointing out general flaws in the arguments.

Yeah, but again, I'm not saying pros should win every single game regardless, there's gonna be some exceptions and abberations.  I'm sure the PBA pros would dominate our scratch league over the course of a season . . but they wouldn't win as many games as they should.  They're gonna get 300/800 shot at them occasionally, they're gonna have off nights, but on a PBA shot, I will guarantee that they will win more times than they would on a house shot.  I also come from a pro shop point of view too.  Somebody shoots 300 that has no business doing it and all the sudden they know everything.  Can't talk to them, can't coach them, and especially can't keep them from spreading their horrifically wrong ideas around to friends who actually listen to them and won't listen to us. 
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LuckyLefty

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Re: Yahoo news article on PBA 900, the comments say it all
« Reply #36 on: April 30, 2013, 03:16:15 PM »
Ah Gizmo you are talking about the irrationality of intermittent results.

Greg Norman could never draw an iron into a left to right wind and was not necessarily from what I have heard the easiest to coach.

Many people mistake good results as good technique and we know good technique shows up over time but for some may fall apart under pressure depending on (well you know).  Also short term results in bowling can happen from the funkiest techniques but not necessarily in golf, (small margin of error to even get the ball up in the air).

I see bowling as a lot like basketball many people can look good at it if Michael Jordan is not guarding them.  Golf few look good and can score good(with only 10% of golfers breaking 90).

As to 900 turning people off.  While an unfortunate family event had me miss the 900(the only squad we had planned to go to).  For the next couple of days the excitement in the crowd was palpable.  Many old crumbs hoping he would fail to make the cut(of course they are always around), many were more enthusiastic enjoying his throwing,  His outgoing and calm demeaner, and  the high scoring pace of the leaders.

I sensed nothing but a heightened interest after the incredible scoring because on many lanes there were splits, and missed head pin strike throws  by bowling regional champs and senior PBA stars.  Not a cake shot unless you were Darn good!

Excitement!  Progress.  It was Palpable!  People love high scoring some of the time!

I'm still excited by watching Bob Learn throw his awesome TV series.  Of course their is a need for a US open condition....but not every week!

REgards,

Luckylefty
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davidinil

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Re: Yahoo news article on PBA 900, the comments say it all
« Reply #37 on: May 09, 2013, 08:47:51 PM »
Quote from: LuckyLefty on April 28, 2013, 07:52:10 AM
Ah Carry?

One of the qualifying leaders of this awesome senior tournament did not used to a high carry bowler, was several years ago a mediocre carry bowler while being a well known sport condition expert.

Over the last 10 years he has dramatically improved his league averages and slightly increased his sport condition results.

He made changes in his game which included a faster thumb, a focus on his flat spot and amount of loft(increased it), less focus on splicing boards at the arrows, and a slight reduction in speed to match his rev rate(especially under pressure). 

While still being a great PBA condition bowler he has recorded averages over 20 pins higher than he was down to 10 years ago.

As to the condition where all these great scores were shot on this PBA condition many very very good bowlers had many a shot miss the head pin on this condition particularly if they had axis rotations of over 35 degrees.

Great carry on league conditions is its own art/science.

REgards,

Luckylefty

Who are you speaking of Lucky?
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strikeking

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Re: Yahoo news article on PBA 900, the comments say it all
« Reply #38 on: May 17, 2013, 03:33:28 PM »
In bowling's "hay -day" bowlers could not purchase a "hook-in - box" like now.  Bowlers scored because of their ability, not because of the equipment they could buy.  But the computer assisted engineering age is here to stay and we can't go back to plastic balls with pancake weight blocks. Golf has experienced the same problem. Golf courses that used to require a driver and a 4 iron are now a driver and a wedge. The big difference is a guy named TIGER WOODS!  Bowling has yet to find a comparable "phenom" that fans will pay big bucks to watch.
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Strikeking

Gizmo823

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Re: Yahoo news article on PBA 900, the comments say it all
« Reply #39 on: May 21, 2013, 08:06:42 AM »
Quote from: strikeking on May 17, 2013, 03:33:28 PM
In bowling's "hay -day" bowlers could not purchase a "hook-in - box" like now.  Bowlers scored because of their ability, not because of the equipment they could buy.  But the computer assisted engineering age is here to stay and we can't go back to plastic balls with pancake weight blocks. Golf has experienced the same problem. Golf courses that used to require a driver and a 4 iron are now a driver and a wedge. The big difference is a guy named TIGER WOODS!  Bowling has yet to find a comparable "phenom" that fans will pay big bucks to watch.

Newer golf courses have adapted and have made the conditions tougher to fit the challenge, and by the nature of the game, the only way bowling could have a phenom is if they went to a similar format, so many games, total pins wins the tournament.  With one game matches on tv, it's a complete crapshoot.  How many times have we seen a guy that dominated the entire week lose on tv? 
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ImBackInTheGame

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Re: Yahoo news article on PBA 900, the comments say it all
« Reply #40 on: May 21, 2013, 09:09:49 AM »
I haven't read all of this, but easy house shots especially in youth bowling are killing the potential that some of the young bowlers have.  Once they try something with a 5:1 or less ratio they cannot score, get discouraged and quit. 

All house shots do is inflate averages.  Why would you want an inflated average and then go to a tournament and suck because they put out a challenge pattern or sport shot?  Why not have a league pattern that is difficult and then actually have a chance at making some money at a tournament.

I'm learning this first hand.  I got back into bowling 5 years ago after a 13 year absence from the sport.  I bowled only one league and became complacent.  I didn't need to think at all during league.  Just throw the ball, you can miss you spot by 5 boards in either direction and stay in the pocket. 

Now I've been bowling some ABT tournaments and it's been an eye opener.  Averaging a measly 161, about a 40 pin drop, because they put out challenging patterns forcing me to play outside of my "comfort zone".  Easy house shots have set me back in the tournament environment.  I'm working on my game as much as I can to get better on more difficult patterns.
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