Author Topic: dual angle question (Read 2379 times)

chitown · « **on:** December 25, 2008, 10:54:22 AM »

does a higher degree angle to the VAL create a sharper break point?

cmurder300 · « **Reply #1 on:** December 25, 2008, 07:19:27 PM »

Please remember, when you use the dual angle to lay out a bowling ball that you must consider ball speed, rev rate, axis tilt, and axis rotation of that bowler to get the desired reaction that bowler may want.
--------------------
UAW FOR LIFE
www.infinitevisionbowling.com

chitown · « **Reply #2 on:** December 25, 2008, 07:40:25 PM »

quote:
no it goes by the lower the number the quicker the ball is off of friction/ breakpoint.

Edited on 12/25/2008 8:02 PM

Below is copied from the MoRich website.

Larger drilling angles in relation to the angle to the VAL will create later, sharper breakpoints (more backend).
Smaller drilling angles in relation to the angle to the VAL will create a sooner, heavier roll (more midlane).

I do know that using smaller degree angles for the pin to pap line will result in the ball getting into its roll sooner. However, I thought using larger degree angles for the angle to VAL gave a sharper break point shape.

chitown · « **Reply #3 on:** December 25, 2008, 08:01:10 PM »

quote:
Please remember, when you use the dual angle to lay out a bowling ball that you must consider ball speed, rev rate, axis tilt, and axis rotation of that bowler to get the desired reaction that bowler may want.
--------------------
UAW FOR LIFE
www.infinitevisionbowling.com

I have the method down pretty good but was just curious about the break point shape with regards to the angle to VAL. I know smaller degree angles for the pin to pap line will result in the ball getting into it's roll quicker (quicker response to friction) but was curious about degree angle to VAL.

For example:

The bowler decides to drill up two Ntense LevRG's and wants the total sum of the two angles to be 90 degrees.

For ball #1 he uses a 60 x 4" x 30, with this layout the degree to VAL is 30.

For ball #2 he uses a 35 x 4" x 55, with this layout the degree to VAL is 55.

Both balls have the same total sum of the two angles which is 90 degrees. Which of the two balls will have a sharper break point shape?

On Ball #2 the pin will probably end up above the fingers. On ball #1 the pin will most likely end up right of the ring finger. For the purposes of this example let's assume the bowlers PAP is 5" over and 1/4" up.

Now based on this method the sum total of the two angles determines how quick the ball transitions from skid/roll/hook. Smaller sum angles will cause a quicker transition and larger sum angles provide a slower transition. However the break point shape can be adjusted but the above example. Im just curious if im correct that the larger the degree to the VAL the sharper the break point shape?

This is different than the sum total of the two angles.

Edited on 12/25/2008 9:06 PM

chitown · « **Reply #4 on:** December 25, 2008, 08:12:03 PM »

quote:
yes correct. when I say quicker I mean from front to back. the higher the degree the more angel it has bc it is going longer, the lower it is quicker in the break point bc it is getting into a roll earlier.

For example:

The bowler decides to drill up two Ntense LevRG's and wants the total sum of the two angles to be 90 degrees.

For ball #1 he uses a 60 x 4" x 30, with this layout the degree to VAL is 30.

For ball #2 he uses a 35 x 4" x 55, with this layout the degree to VAL is 55.

Both balls have the same total sum of the two angles which is 90 degrees. Which of the two balls will have a sharper break point shape?

On Ball #2 the pin will probably end up above the fingers. On ball #1 the pin will most likely end up right of the ring finger. For the purposes of this example let's assume the bowlers PAP is 5" over and 1/4" up.

Now based on this method the sum total of the two angles determines how quick the ball transitions from skid/roll/hook. Smaller sum angles will cause a quicker transition and larger sum angles provide a slower transition. However the break point shape can be adjusted but the above example. Im just curious if im correct that the larger the degree to the VAL the sharper the break point shape?

So im correct in saying that Ball #2 will have more back end movement because the angle to VAL is larger.

Both balls in the example above should be close in overall reaction because the sum total of the two angles are the same. However, the break point shape will be different because the degree angles are a little different?

slap · « **Reply #5 on:** December 25, 2008, 08:31:09 PM »

I think ball number #1 will have more backend movement. The larger drill angle (60 vs 35) will allow the ball to pick up it's roll later and the smaller angle to the val (30 x 55) will allow the ball to transition faster once it encounters friction.

Also it says in the dual angle presentation that larger drill angles in relation to smaller angle to the vals will create later, sharper breakpoints.
--------------------
"Student of the Game"

http://s9.photobucket.com/albums/a63/slap1914/bowling/

Edited on 12/25/2008 9:32 PM

chitown · « **Reply #6 on:** December 25, 2008, 08:32:10 PM »

layout #1 40 x 4" x 30

layout #2 40 x 4" x 60

In the above example am I correct in saying layout #2 will have a stronger back end reaction?

Forgive me it sounds like I keep asking the same question but I want to be sure this is correct. So basically the larger the angle to VAL the stronger back end reaction?

slap · « **Reply #7 on:** December 25, 2008, 08:42:07 PM »

quote:
layout #1 40 x 4" x 30

layout #2 40 x 4" x 60

In the above example am I correct in saying layout #2 will have a stronger back end reaction?

Forgive me it sounds like I keep asking the same question but I want to be sure this is correct. So basically the larger the angle to VAL the stronger back end reaction?

I think you have it backwards. My understanding is that a smaller angle to the VAL creates a sharper back end reaction. You have to decipher Mo's terminology. I think "transitioning the fastest" is the key phrase here.
--------------------
"Student of the Game"

http://s9.photobucket.com/albums/a63/slap1914/bowling/

sunsetlefty · « **Reply #8 on:** December 25, 2008, 08:44:59 PM »

I think that you are getting confused about the secondary angle. The angle to the VAL determines how quickly the ball responds to friction. Smaller angles respond quicker. Larger angles respond slower.

Please read the Morich statement again:

Larger drilling angles in relation to the angle to the VAL will create later, sharper breakpoints (more backend).

This means that because the drilling angle, or first angle, creates a longer motion. The smaller VAL angle, or secondary angle will create a sharper move off the friction.

Smaller drilling angles in relation to the angle to the VAL will create a sooner, heavier roll (more midlane).

This means that the smaller drilling angle, or first angle, will create an earlier roll. The larger VAL angle, or secondary angle, will create a smoother move off the breakpoint.
--------------------
Gary Palma
X-act Reaction pro shop at Ideal Lanes
PBA Member
2008 Hammer Staff Member

Edited on 12/25/2008 9:46 PM

chitown · « **Reply #9 on:** December 25, 2008, 08:54:03 PM »

quote:
I think that you are getting confused about the secondary angle. The angle to the VAL determines how quickly the ball responds to friction. Smaller angles respond quicker. Larger angles respond slower.

Please read the Morich statement again:

Larger drilling angles in relation to the angle to the VAL will create later, sharper breakpoints (more backend).

This means that because the drilling angle, or first angle, creates a longer motion. The smaller VAL angle, or secondary angle will create a sharper move off the friction.

Smaller drilling angles in relation to the angle to the VAL will create a sooner, heavier roll (more midlane).

This means that the smaller drilling angle, or first angle, will create an earlier roll. The larger VAL angle, or secondary angle, will create a smoother move off the breakpoint.
--------------------
Gary Palma
X-act Reaction pro shop at Ideal Lanes
PBA Member
2008 Hammer Staff Member

Edited on 12/25/2008 9:46 PM

OK!

Thanks that does help clear things up. It's really backwards compared to symmetrical bowling balls.

If I want a big back end reaction on a symmetrical ball then I use a 5.5" pin to pap distance and place the pin above the bridge. It's really that simple.

For MoRich it's completely opposite. He says that to acheive a stronger backend reaction it's best to keep the pin location closer to the VAL.

Edited on 12/25/2008 9:57 PM

sunsetlefty · « **Reply #10 on:** December 25, 2008, 08:57:22 PM »

quote:
quote:
I think that you are getting confused about the secondary angle. The angle to the VAL determines how quickly the ball responds to friction. Smaller angles respond quicker. Larger angles respond slower.

Please read the Morich statement again:

Larger drilling angles in relation to the angle to the VAL will create later, sharper breakpoints (more backend).

This means that because the drilling angle, or first angle, creates a longer motion. The smaller VAL angle, or secondary angle will create a sharper move off the friction.

Smaller drilling angles in relation to the angle to the VAL will create a sooner, heavier roll (more midlane).

This means that the smaller drilling angle, or first angle, will create an earlier roll. The larger VAL angle, or secondary angle, will create a smoother move off the breakpoint.
--------------------
Gary Palma
X-act Reaction pro shop at Ideal Lanes
PBA Member
2008 Hammer Staff Member

Edited on 12/25/2008 9:46 PM

OK!

Thanks that does help clear things up. It's really backwards compared to symmetrical bowling balls.

Well, not really backwards. This method works for symmetricals as well as asymmetricals. Remember that in a perfect world the symmetrical ball only needs to have a line drawn 6 3/4 inches from the Pin thru the CG to find the MB, no matter how low the value of the MB.

I think that you understand it now!

Gary Palma
X-act Reaction pro shop at Ideal Lanes
PBA Member
2008 Hammer Staff Member

Edited on 12/25/2008 10:02 PM

Edited on 12/25/2008 10:03 PM

chitown · « **Reply #11 on:** December 25, 2008, 09:13:04 PM »

quote:
Well, not really backwards. This method works for symmetricals as well as asymmetricals. Remember that in a perfect world the symmetrical ball only needs to have a line drawn 6 3/4 inches from the Pin thru the CG to find the MB, no matter how low the value of the MB.

I think that you understand it now!

I have a good understanding now. Having the pin close the VAL was throwing me off a bit. Thanks for helping I appreciate it.

sunsetlefty · « **Reply #12 on:** December 25, 2008, 09:16:57 PM »

chitown,

Glad to help. PM me if you have any questions.

--------------------
Gary Palma
X-act Reaction pro shop at Ideal Lanes
PBA Member
2008 Hammer Staff Member

Author Topic: dual angle question (Read 2379 times)

chitown

dual angle question

cmurder300

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chitown

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chitown

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chitown

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slap

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chitown

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slap

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sunsetlefty

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chitown

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sunsetlefty

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chitown

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sunsetlefty

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