Author Topic: Roll Out? (Read 2840 times)

JS · « **on:** September 30, 2004, 11:11:29 AM »

My wife and I went to a seminar with Mo a few months back and Mo drilled her up an Onslaught. He layed it out with a control drill and she liked the reaction and hit she was getting. She wanted a ball to handle some heavier oil so she got a Total Annihilation and it was layed out with the sharp breakpoint drill. This ball rolls out about 2 feet from the pocket! It starts out turning, turning , turning and then you can see the logos just stop turning with side tilt and just start rolling end over end. I was told by our driller that this was to be expected because the core is so strong and has such a quick spin time. We hit it with 2000 grit (no polish) to see if this would help. We'll see this weekend. Anyone else have this happen? I could see this being a possibility with a Forward Roll drill but not with the MB in the strong position. If the 2000 grit don't help we'll try polish next. Maybe she doesn't have enough speed for such an aggressive core/cover combination. Take care....JS

LuckyLefty · « **Reply #1 on:** October 01, 2004, 12:50:35 AM »

guy in our center put his in lustre king for 3 minutes.

Gets down the lane fine!

REgards,

Luckylefty

JS · « **Reply #2 on:** October 04, 2004, 07:46:47 PM »

LL,

Even with the 1000 grit and then some polish the TA still rolled out. I placed some tape on her axis today and watched her throw the ball. It appears that she is at 0 degree rotation with her release. I went through some old BTM's and found one of Mo's articles from 11/02 talking about axis rotation and layouts. It appears that I should be laying out her equipt with the MB more towards her track to keep the axis rotation longer on her ball. Between the strong core and the mb in the strong position, it does not favor her 0 axis rotation release. I have a feeling the TA will be in the For Sale forum soon.
Any thoughts? Take care....JS

ps. This is probably why the Phenom and The Triple X didn't do anything for her either.

dirtbikebowler · « **Reply #3 on:** October 04, 2004, 08:20:02 PM »

why dotn she just use the other ball? bc u said this one was for heavy oil??
--------------------
Tom Kelleys Pro Shop

khamûl · « **Reply #4 on:** October 05, 2004, 12:39:55 AM »

quote:
You drilled her Total Annihilation Skid/Flip? Why did you not drill it with the Control drilling? I had the Morich Onslaught and I to drilled it Skid/Flip and like you, I thought it would go 35 feet or so and jump left, it only did so on extremely long oil and on a medium house pattern, rolled like garbage and like an idiot, I sold it not knowing what this drilling was really for! I have learned that when you drill a Morich ball, you have to drill it for what the drillings are really for, the Control drilling is for most medium to heavy (House pattern) conditions, the Forward Roll drilling is for the heaviest oil and delivers the earliest roll for (House Patterns) and the Skid/Flip drilling is for 45 feet sport (Tournament) lane patterns! These balls are so well tuned that if you drill them for a certain lane pattern and oil viscosity type, you get the reaction you want! Sanding or polishing your wifes ball will not change what her Total Annihilation is drilled for, HEAVY THICK LONG OIL PATTERNS associated with ABC nationals or higher dollar tournaments! I now have both the Morich Ravage and the Total Annihilation and they are both drilled with the Control drilling and if I use them correctly, they out perform any ball that I have ever thrown!

In other words, the Skid/Flip drilling is not the same as the Skid/Flip drillings normally associated with the rest of the ball manufactures!

ummmm, ok.

There is a grain of truth in there somewhere, just waiting to get out. ("skid/flip" for "45 foot sport shots"? where do you go for this material?)

JS,

Wetsand it to 1500 then apply control-it or delayed reaction to the cover. If that won't do the trick you will have to plug it up and use a pattern more conductive to releasing tilt and rotation later.
--------------------
two of nine

stanski · « **Reply #5 on:** October 05, 2004, 01:05:46 AM »

quote:
You drilled her Total Annihilation Skid/Flip? Why did you not drill it with the Control drilling? I had the Morich Onslaught and I to drilled it Skid/Flip and like you, I thought it would go 35 feet or so and jump left, it only did so on extremely long oil and on a medium house pattern, rolled like garbage and like an idiot, I sold it not knowing what this drilling was really for! I have learned that when you drill a Morich ball, you have to drill it for what the drillings are really for, the Control drilling is for most medium to heavy (House pattern) conditions, the Forward Roll drilling is for the heaviest oil and delivers the earliest roll for (House Patterns) and the Skid/Flip drilling is for 45 feet sport (Tournament) lane patterns! These balls are so well tuned that if you drill them for a certain lane pattern and oil viscosity type, you get the reaction you want! Sanding or polishing your wifes ball will not change what her Total Annihilation is drilled for, HEAVY THICK LONG OIL PATTERNS associated with ABC nationals or higher dollar tournaments! I now have both the Morich Ravage and the Total Annihilation and they are both drilled with the Control drilling and if I use them correctly, they out perform any ball that I have ever thrown!

Edited on 10/4/2004 8:16 PM

Edited on 10/4/2004 8:19 PM

Using a skid-flip type ball on a sport condition... thats an idea i have never come across, and one of the reason all the league hacks who bowl on sports usually do terrible. All their balls are drilled to score on ths, which calls for entrance angle, skid-flip. Sport conditions call for just getting to the pocket, which calls for balls with more midlane.

You could tell her to throw the ball faster along with all the other suggestions by people here. One problem with slower ball speeds (which i assume she has since she is a woman, sorry im being sexist) is that a lot of balls do have a tendency to roll out. polishing and higher grits may help, but roll out will probably always be a problem unless she is an exception to my woman bowler stigma.
--------------------
stanski

JS · « **Reply #6 on:** October 05, 2004, 12:55:08 PM »

Thanks for all the comments and suggestions guys. Drrev, I'll have to think about what you said a little more carefully. Did you get this info from Mo and if not, where, so I can research it. And she does have her Onslaught drilled Control (Mo laid it out) and that appears to be more condition specific. Seems to give her over/under. That's what I was experiencing with my Ravage with the Control layout (but that's a different story).

After reading Mo's column in BTM I went to his See It, Feel It book where he talked about axis rotation and ball drillings. In there he states that MB in the strong position retains axis rotation the longest. Different than what he said in 11/02 BTM. I am sending MoRich a note today to ask for their suggestions.

And stanski, you're right. She only throws about 15-16mph so it is on the slower side. Her speed coupled with her release seems to be fighting against this ball and layout.

kamul, it may come down to a completely different layout. I'll let everyone know what response I get from MoRich. Thanks....JS

intergalactic · « **Reply #7 on:** October 05, 2004, 04:26:28 PM »

Morich rules!

--------------------
Faster than a bullet
Terrifying scream
Enraged and full of anger
He's half man and half machine

Rides the metal monster
Breathing smoke and fire
Closing in with vengeance soaring high
www.JudasPriest.com

intergalactic · « **Reply #8 on:** October 05, 2004, 04:34:52 PM »

Very true

--------------------
Faster than a bullet
Terrifying scream
Enraged and full of anger
He's half man and half machine

Rides the metal monster
Breathing smoke and fire
Closing in with vengeance soaring high
www.JudasPriest.com

knowledge_is_key · « **Reply #9 on:** October 06, 2004, 05:17:55 PM »

quote:
After reading Mo's column in BTM I went to his See It, Feel It book where he talked about axis rotation and ball drillings. In there he states that MB in the strong position retains axis rotation the longest. Different than what he said in 11/02 BTM. I am sending MoRich a note today to ask for their suggestions.

JS,

I looked through my copy of the See It, Feel It, Do It, manual and was wondering if you were talking about P.89?

If you were, it does not state that the MB in the strong position retains axis rotation the longest. In fact none of the topics on that page (with the exception of the title at the top) mention MB placements. They refer to reactions, and the one I think you are referring to says, the strong ball reaction, retains axis rotation as long as possible.

So since your wife has problem with little or zero axis rotation already and slower speed on top of that, she would need to use an Arc "drilling" to achieve the strong "reaction", because the mass bias would be in a later revving position.

The box drilling instructions also kind of set up a guideline in the "player profile" section beside each one. For the control layout, it says for low to medium ball speed (which your wife has), and for small to medium axis rotation (which your wife also has). The only thing in question, is the rev rate and with what you are describing, I would think that she probably has medium to high revs (in relation to her ball speed, that is the key).

Anyway, I would suggest doing as Khamul suggested, and wet sand it to 1500 and apply Control-It (made by Neo-Tac) or Delayed Reaction (made by Track). Both of these are skid enhancing polishes and do wonders at creating extra length and saving energy on MoRich equipment.

If that still doesn't help enough, then go for the plug and redrill using a late revving (or control) layout.

--------------------
Knowledge is key

khamûl · « **Reply #10 on:** October 09, 2004, 01:50:58 AM »

quote:
Anyway, I would suggest doing as Khamul suggested, and wet sand it to 1500 and apply Control-It (made by Neo-Tac) or Delayed Reaction (made by Track). Both of these are skid enhancing polishes and do wonders at creating extra length and saving energy on MoRich equipment.

--------------------
two of nine

charlest · « **Reply #11 on:** October 09, 2004, 05:32:12 AM »

JS,

This sort of corroborates what DRrev and khamÃ»l said.
I don't know if you recall when we bowled the Somerset/Hunterdon tourney together with Anthony last SPring. I used a Slay/R at Strike and Spare?
(Just so you recall my release and ball speed)

Well, I just polished up my Hercules (a soild/pearl particle cover) to a medium-high gloss, about 1500+ grit. It has a modified control drilling, with the pin a little higher than that specified in Mo's drilling specs.
Until I put this polish on it, this ball was unusable for me on any condiiton I encountered so far. S 'n' S is now putting out a little more oil making it very similar to what we bowled on. I used it 2 nights ago and the ball reaction was just perfect.

I had been hesitant to add the polish, but that seemed to do the trick. The oil was medium-light, but definitely light after the the 3 games, and the ball was hooking quite a bit. But if I kept my speed up, it remained controllable. I only need to stand around 30 by night's end.

I'd say this Hercules, since it flared so little was hooking about the same as my Slay/R with a 5x5 drilling.

--------------------
"We get old too fast, and too late, smart."

JS · « **Reply #12 on:** October 12, 2004, 07:56:01 PM »

charlest....thanks for the tip with the polishing. We'll give it a try and see if that helps with the roll. My wife ended her leagues last year with a 201 average. She's struggling to hit 180 this year so she is working with Ken Yokobosky on her release. She's throwing her older equipt good but the TA justs wants to roll right off her hand and then roll out. We'll try the polish. As a side note, I redrilled my Ravage from a Control layout to a Sharp Break layout and I am seeing the same roll on my Ravage as she's seeing on the TA! I don't see any "sharp" break at all. I'll play around with polish on the Ravage and start a new thread on this. Hopefully we can hook up again for this years tournament.

knowledge_is_key....actually I was looking at pages 97 and 98, Mass Bias Placements. The reactions that are mentioned on page 98 are based on MB placements from page 97, no?

I said that I would post MoRich's response to my question on MB placement so here goes (it's wonderful dealing with companies that offer such great support as MoRich does):

Hi John,

Thanks for taking the time to visit our website and for the question!

First let's start with (what I consider) an easy way to determine your wife's (or anyone's for that matter) axis rotation. Instead of placing a piece of tape on the PAP (positive axis point), place the tape in the center of the grip. The reason that I like this method better is because, unless you have a video camera handy and can pause it (the video tape) at the release, it can be hard to acurately determine the axis rotation (by locating the position of the PAP) using the method in The See It, Feel It, Do It manual as described (picture) on page 85. Using the "tape in the center of the grip method", allows you to notice the tape rotating about the ball and the angle at which this tape is rotating, in relation to the path that the ball is traveling, will help to determine the amount of axis rotation. I have attached some Jpegs that will hopefully show you what I am talking about.

I don't doubt the fact that your wife may have "very little" axis rotation, however 0 degrees of rotation is extremely rare (but not impossible). Usually it only occurs with "full rollers", whom have 0 degrees of axis rotation and 0 degrees of axis tilt.

In any case, it certainly sounds like your wife needs for the ball to maintain axis rotation longer (like you mentioned). She would definately benefit from mass bias placements at 6 3/4" from her PAP.

Now, getting to what was said in the manual, versus what Mo said in 11/02 BTM article. I have to agree (and thank you for pointing it out) that they certainly send out mixed messages. To help clarify this, I have to first point out the fact that the manual was written in 1998 and we (MoRich) were just starting to touch on mass bias technology and how it could effect axis rotation. With that being said, what the manual fails to point out is the release rate of the axis rotation, with the MB in certain positions at release. While balls with the MB in the strong position do retain axis rotation (as much as possible) the longest, they also allow the ball to lose it at a much faster rate (once the process begins). On the other hand, while balls with the MB in the arc position (6 3/4") start to lose axis rotation sooner, the rate at which it loses all (or most) of it, is much slower.

On Arc Drillings, the MB has farther to travel, before it loses all the axis rotation, but begins the process of losing it, sooner. Whereas, on Strong Drillings, the MB doesn't have as far to travel before it loses all the axis rotation, but begins the process of losing it, later (maintains the majority longer). So basically, strong drillings retain longer, but release at one time (so to speak) and arc drillings start to lose sooner, but do so throughout the lane. Therefore arc drillings actually retain (some) axis tilt longer.

I hope this explanation was helpful and was somewhat easy to understand (clarity). Sometimes it is difficult to type exactly what you are trying to say and make it understandable.

Regards,
Fred Carroll, Jr
Director of Technical Services
MoRich Enterprises, Inc.

charlest · « **Reply #13 on:** October 12, 2004, 10:58:16 PM »

JS,

Fred's description shows why their "sharpest breakpoint" is the flippiest.

If you polish your Ravage back up to box, I'd bet it gets flippy. Your speed/rev ratio is pretty high, altho' you have more revs than you admit to. That speed may prevent you from seeing the flip more easily. (I'm assuming you may have dulled it slightly.) The Ravages I have seen have had a large, fairly flippy backend.
--------------------
"We get old too fast, and too late, smart."

Author Topic: Roll Out? (Read 2840 times)

JS

Roll Out?

LuckyLefty

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JS

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dirtbikebowler

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Tom Kelleys Pro Shop

khamûl

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stanski

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JS

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intergalactic

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intergalactic

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knowledge_is_key

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charlest

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JS

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charlest

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