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Author Topic: Ball Exchange Program Update  (Read 7343 times)

johnkim

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Ball Exchange Program Update
« on: August 11, 2016, 01:33:29 PM »
I received this email this morning.




You had previously signed up to receive updates regarding the Jackal and Jackal Carnage reinstatement process.  The USBC recently decided not to reinstate approval.  MOTIV® is reviewing the USBC's decision, and is considering its options going forward.


Nevertheless, MOTIV® is pleased to announce that the new Jackal LE (Limited Edition) has been approved for all USBC certified competition. The USBC-approved Jackal LE will be produced and distributed in accordance with the previously announced MOTIV® Ball Exchange Program.


Soon, you will be sent a link to our Ball Exchange Program so you can sign up to exchange your Jackal or Jackal Carnage for the new Jackal LE. 


Thank you for your patience and support. It is greatly appreciated.

 

Steven

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Re: Ball Exchange Program Update
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2016, 02:28:08 PM »
Seems like Motiv is keeping their options open for a possible law suit. The saga continues......

AMF300bowler

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Re: Ball Exchange Program Update
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2016, 11:16:35 AM »
The courts have affirmed over and over again that membership organizations (of which the USBC is) have the right to establish their own set of rules (as long as said rules do not violate local, state or national laws).

Motiv would just be burning money at this point. They may as well just give me the money.
Balls: Motiv Forza GT, Motiv Primal Rage Remix, Motiv Ascent Pearl and Motiv (On The Ball) spare ball.. All made in the USA.

spmcgivern

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Re: Ball Exchange Program Update
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2016, 12:52:31 PM »
No where in the statement did Motiv say they were considering legal action.  At no time during this issue has Motiv said were considering legal action.

It is comments like those given by Steven and AMF300bowler that lead to defamatory internet chatter and gossip for no reason other than stroking their own egos.

I realize we live in an extremely litigious society.  And you may think Motiv will sue, but does making these sweeping and unverified accusations do any good?  I am all for people complaining about things that have actually happened, and if you feel Motiv took too long to handle this, then fine.  But we don't need false accusations.

My extreme reaction to these statements may seem unnecessary, but based on history of comments pertaining to this issue, the forum gets out of control all based on what-ifs that have no merit.  Let's just nip it in the bud now.

mstevens

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Re: Ball Exchange Program Update
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2016, 02:44:45 PM »
keep in mind, and i am not trying to stir the pot,
but motiv was under ZERO obligation to do anything to rectify this. they made a mistake and could have easily said oh well, it was legal when you bought the ball now its not, far from our problem.

luv2C10falll

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Re: Ball Exchange Program Update
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2016, 02:53:40 PM »
Oh mstevens......always trying to cause troubles with your passive aggressive jabber

mstevens

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Re: Ball Exchange Program Update
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2016, 03:03:43 PM »
what trouble have i caused?

Steven

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Re: Ball Exchange Program Update
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2016, 06:34:12 PM »
No where in the statement did Motiv say they were considering legal action.  At no time during this issue has Motiv said were considering legal action.

It is comments like those given by Steven and AMF300bowler that lead to defamatory internet chatter and gossip for no reason other than stroking their own egos.


After exhausting all procedural remedies with the USBC, Motiv now says "it's considering its options" moving forward. In business world speak, that generally means looking at legal options for financial damages. Business litigation is weaved into our system, and happens all the time. No amount of pouting is going to nip discussion around the possibility, especially with Motiv stoking the flames with their own statements.

Instead of spending so much energy perching on a soap box, why not clarify Motiv's
statement if you have special insights? It would be a whole lot more productive.

2handedvolcano

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  • No I won't put a hole in the lane, Mr. Proprietor!
Re: Ball Exchange Program Update
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2016, 06:37:10 PM »
I would not know what to do with a ball that has that large of a weight block and that surface like the jackal, I would ball less then a 100 for sure, nearly 100 pins less then my average. I never thought of buying that ice skate. I'm glad i saved my money since the ball is now illegal.
Will expand arsenal after I polish my spares.

AMF300bowler

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Re: Ball Exchange Program Update
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2016, 11:17:28 AM »
>> It is comments like those given by Steven and AMF300bowler

No where did I say that Motiv was going to sue the USBC. I do not expect Motiv to sue the USBC for the very reason I mentioned. Next time, read the post before commenting.
Balls: Motiv Forza GT, Motiv Primal Rage Remix, Motiv Ascent Pearl and Motiv (On The Ball) spare ball.. All made in the USA.

spmcgivern

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Re: Ball Exchange Program Update
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2016, 12:24:51 PM »
No where in the statement did Motiv say they were considering legal action.  At no time during this issue has Motiv said were considering legal action.

It is comments like those given by Steven and AMF300bowler that lead to defamatory internet chatter and gossip for no reason other than stroking their own egos.


After exhausting all procedural remedies with the USBC, Motiv now says "it's considering its options" moving forward. In business world speak, that generally means looking at legal options for financial damages. Business litigation is weaved into our system, and happens all the time. No amount of pouting is going to nip discussion around the possibility, especially with Motiv stoking the flames with their own statements.

Instead of spending so much energy perching on a soap box, why not clarify Motiv's
statement if you have special insights? It would be a whole lot more productive.

The only insight I have is Motiv will replace all remaining Jackals with a Jackal LE.  Not sure what more is required.  Motiv told all those submitting forms for replacement the anticipated date as the September time frame.  That is still the case.

And I question how this issue affects the consumer who includes all of us on this forum.  Does Motiv suing anyone directly affect the performance of their bowling balls?  Does Motiv suing anyone affect anything bowling related at all?  Perhaps the cost of litigation prevents some future research or prevents some type of expansion that ultimately reduces Motiv's position in the market.  In that case, it would really only affect shareholders.  But that can't be it either since it is privately owned.

So again, I wonder how negative narrative about an incident that has not occurred can anything other than slanderous in an attempt to make Motiv look bad.

spmcgivern

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Re: Ball Exchange Program Update
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2016, 12:25:59 PM »
>> It is comments like those given by Steven and AMF300bowler

No where did I say that Motiv was going to sue the USBC. I do not expect Motiv to sue the USBC for the very reason I mentioned. Next time, read the post before commenting.

I apologize for the slight.  I mistakenly included you in my blabber. 

MI 2 AZ

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Re: Ball Exchange Program Update
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2016, 12:30:33 PM »
If Motiv sues the USBC, would that affect us, as bowlers and members of the USBC?
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Steven

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Re: Ball Exchange Program Update
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2016, 01:25:16 PM »

So again, I wonder how negative narrative about an incident that has not occurred can anything other than slanderous in an attempt to make Motiv look bad.

 
And again, I ask what Motiv means by the statement that they're "reviewing the USBC decision, and is considering their options moving forward" ??
 
If they've already exhausted all administrative options for overturning the USBC decision, and have established a process for customer ball replacement, what options are left? You continue to accuse me of slander, but won't address this simple question.
 
I'm a long time Motiv user who has given the company credit (on this forum) for great customer service they personally provided me. But it doesn't mean that I, or anyone else, can't question plausible intent of their own comments. I'd do the same with any company. If that's slander, you've created a different definition for the word.

spmcgivern

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Re: Ball Exchange Program Update
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2016, 04:48:46 PM »
Let's look at the facts of the case:

*  USBC is asked to look into the legitimacy of the Jackals
*  USBC purchases some Jackals to confirm the differential
*  USBC finds some balls exceed 0.060" of differential
*  USBC bans Jackals
*  Motiv appeals the decision
*  Motiv gives customers a chance to redeem the ball for any current release
*  Motiv also offers to give an LE ball if the customer waits until the appeal decision is made
*  Motiv tells customers the LE should be released in September time frame
*  USBC denies the appeal
*  Motiv releases details of the LE ball to be delivered, in the exact time frame they stated

At no time did Motiv insinuate or state anything different than what they have done.  Yet on these forums many have come up with outlandish statements of what Motiv is doing (though they haven't) or have stated what Motiv should do. 

It seems Motiv has done exactly what they said they would do.  As a customer, that is all I can ask of a company.  Be accountable for your statements and your actions.  Now, if you don't like the way things worked out you have the choice to not support Motiv.  I am sure many have gone against them because of this and that is their choice.

But to take every single statement provided by Motiv and speculate what each word means is unnecessary.  As far as we know, the statement, "reviewing the USBC decision, and is considering their options moving forward" could refer to anything. 

Per USBC equipment rules:

Quote
d. Differential radius of gyration – for brand new core designs only
 i. Eight additional balls must be submitted (specific weight to be determined by
 USBC) for balls with a measured differential radius of gyration between 0.050’’
 and the 0.061’’.
 ii. The average differential radius of gyration of all samples of similar weight must be
 no, higher than 0.055’’ for the ball to be approved without participation in the
 optional supplemental testing process.
 iii. If through the supplemental testing process it can be proven that balls are not
 designed above the maximum specification of 0.060’’ and have less than 0.6% rate
 of non-conforming balls, the ball will be approved.

Quote
Spot Checking
The USBC possesses the right to spot check bowling balls during the course of the year. USBC
approval may be revoked if it is determined that the production balls are significantly different
than the submitted test balls or do not comply with current specifications and requirements
outlined in the USBC Equipment Specifications and Certifications Manual.
PROCESS
As of January 2012, USBC shall select brands at random throughout the year for spot check testing.
The selected model will be tested and those results will be compared to the original sample
balls submitted for testing.
If this initial spot checking testing produces results that fall outside of USBC specifications, or it is
determined that the results are statistically different from the original sample balls, then a secondary
round of testing will be performed from a different batch. If this secondary round of testing
produces similar results, the manufacturer in question will be placed on probationary status for
no less than 1 year accompanied by a fine not to exceed $8000 in addition to any previously
received testing fees.

Since we are analyzing the use of specific words here:

The first quoted section pertains to the original approval process.  During this process, Motiv proved the balls were not designed to exceed the 0.060" differential specification and had less than a 0.6% failure rate.  This is the  normal procedure a manufacturer must go through to release a ball.  Both Jackals (along with all Predator cored balls before) have gone through and passed this supplemental process.

The second quoted section discusses the spot check process.  In the first statement of "process" for spot checking, "USBC shall select brands at random throughout the year for spot check testing."  As we know, the decision to spot check the Jackals was not random.  USBC provides a percentage of bowling balls to be out of spec at 0.6%.  The delivery of 4 balls I am willing to bet falls below that range.  As a manufacturer I would be upset if the decision to test my equipment was supposedly random when in this case it was not.  For all we know, somebody searched high and low to find 4 Jackals that were over the limit.

Now lets look at this second paragraph's statement, "If this initial spot checking testing produces results that fall outside of USBC specifications, or it is determined that the results are statistically different from the original sample balls, then a secondary round of testing will be performed from a different batch."  It appears USBC only did one spot check of equipment by the original purchase of Jackals to test.  The above statement suggests USBC must perform a secondary test with a different batch.  Nothing shown in any documents state they did this (though they could have). 

The next sentence gives a type of punishment if the spot check (if followed properly) deemed the equipment line illegal, "If this secondary round of testing produces similar results, the manufacturer in question will be placed on probationary status for no less than 1 year accompanied by a fine not to exceed $8000 in addition to any previously received testing fees."  As far as we know, this is the first case of illegal balls by Motiv.  It seems the actual banning of the balls deviates from what Motiv expected based on this statement.  They may feel they should have been put on probation and the balls wouldn't have to be revoked since USBC states explicitly "may" be revoked and not "shall" be revoked.  Once again, the choice of words is important here.

So in the end, Motiv may think they were targeted and not treated according to the Equipment and Specifications Manual (random?).  Perhaps they feel the number of balls tested by USBC didn't provide more than 0.6% failure rate.  Perhaps USBC used some type of statistical analysis that led USBC to believe more than 0.6% of all Jackals would fail if all were tested.  If Motiv sold 1000 Jackals (completely believable) then USBC would have to fail 60 to justify revoking the approval.

Simply put, Motiv will do what they feel they need to do.  They will also do what they feel is best for the customer.  I feel they have done a good job of letting the customer know what to expect.  They have not misled anyone and have done exactly what they said they would do. 

If they decide to sue or anything of the sort, that is up to them.  In fact, they don't even have to tell the customer.  Many companies go through some level of litigation without the consumer ever knowing.  And in my opinion, USBC does not do a good job of explaining the procedures of ball approval.  There are too many areas where judgement can be used.  And once you introduce judgement, then there is room for preferential treatment for or against a manufacturer.