Need opinions for the best heavy oil ball from Motiv.  I bought a used Raptor Talon and it just doesn't cut it in oil. I can dull it down and it will be earlier but it isn't any better than any of the other balls I have from Motiv. Cover is odd that it doesn't really dull down that much, even when I sand it to 500 grit. Seems to shine right back up rather quickly.

I threw someone's Jackal and it seemed like it hooked more on oil when my other balls weren't moving..

Right now I think that is what I am going to try. 

What about the Revolt Havoc?  I heard that ball is like a Storm Marvel S.

Or The Jackal Carnage, how is that ball different than the Jackal?

Quote from: J_w73 on February 08, 2016, 05:43:13 PM

Any comment on the Cruel C51 or the Cruel Intent?  I might be able to get a good deal on one of these. Is the Cruel Intent the same cover as the Primal Rage?  Fusion Pearl Reactive.

I have the Primal Rage and it isn't the ball I though it would be either.  Can't find the right surface and condition to use it on.  When I go duller it is too early, not clean enough and not enough backend, but when I go shinier it skids too much in oil but still doesn't have the backend I thought it would have.  This is from 4000 polished, to just knocking the shine off with a  4000 pad by hand.

When you get to the older Motiv equipment, you will find their covers weren't as strong as some of the bigger named manufacturers.  The Cruel C51 had the Cruel core which maxed out the differential values allowed by USBC (0.060 diff, 0.030 int).  This core was problematic for some if it wasn't drilled accurately for the bowler.  The hybrid cover was strong, but not as strong as other strong pieces by other companies.

The Cruel Intent had a different core (Sinister) and was more along the lines of other asymmetrical cores from other manufacturers (0.053 diff, 0.018 int.).  The introduction of the Fusion Pearl cover by Motiv was the first time their covers approached the performance of bigger names like Storm and EBI.  Since then, their covers have gotten better. 

Cruel Intent would probably be better suited for medium-heavy instead of true heavy, while the Cruel C51 would be better suited for medium in my mind (depending on drilling).

I see you have the Venom Shock and Covert Revolt.  If you are looking for more movement downlane than your Covert Revolt (similar shape to your Venom Shock) then perhaps the Revolt Vengeance.  The cover provides push through the heads and recovers better than the Covert Revolt.  Overall strength will be similar to the Covert Revolt, but may appear stronger since the reaction is downlane instead of through the whole lane.

If you want even stronger, then the original Jackal could be an option.  Coverstock provides push similar to the Vengeance, but overall will be stronger.  Remember, the Covert core (Vanquish) is symmetrical and the Jackal core (Predator) is asymmetrical so the drilling of each will vary slightly.

Good luck!!

P.S.  Does your Primal Rage have a balance hole yet?  Perhaps strengthening the core with a hole to increase the dynamics will help prevent some of the over/under you are seeing.  Another option is to use a lower grit under your polish to get something different.  Something like 2000 with polish.  And I don't recommend the Motiv Polish.  Their cleaner is decent and their Scuff I feel is pretty good.

thank you for all that info.  I did put a weight hole in my Primal Rage. (almost double thumb location)  Before the weight hole it did almost nothing for me, which I was surprised at.  After the weight hole, it was better but still not great.  I thought maybe it was burning up so recently I polished the crap out of it to retain energy.  That was too much and just skid down the lane all the way, so I dulled it down with a 4000 pad by hand and that was the first time I saw the ball actually be good.  I actually threw a 300 with it.  It seemed good for about 2 more sets then wasn't like it was.  So maybe I should put it back that surface again....

That being said.. Do Motiv surfaces change quickly from lane play?  Also, I have tried to extract oil on many of my balls and have yet to see anything come out?  Where is the oil?  I can't get any oil out of my covert and it seems to stay shinier than it used to, even after sanding down to a fresh 2000

I think I am going to look into the Jackal.  I need to throw my friend's to see how it looks.

J_w73,

Seems you have had bad luck with the Motiv asymmetricals.  Perhaps look to reducing the Pin-PAP distance to help retain your tilt.  I used to not have much luck with asyms because they were being drilled like syms.   

Wish you luck.  Jackal Carnage looks to be pretty strong.  I don't have a use for one, but I wish I did.

thank you for the tip.  I haven't had much success with asymmetricals so I do tend to stick with symmetrical balls. One of the reasons I do like Motiv is that most of their stuff doesn't stand up and roll forward immediately when it hits dry.  I have a Rico drilling on my Raptor Talon.  Maybe the long pin to PAP is part of the problem.  It does still flare a ton though.

Performance with lane shine was something they tried to combat with the jackal.  There a video where the ball is oil soaked and still performs.  Idk about the new carnage, but I am referring to the original.  YouTube it!

Best ball for oil has to be the carnage all things aside.. I wouldn't say the havoc as many said its weaker than expected.

In my arsenal I have a Roto Grip Sinister and the Jackal.
These days the Sinister does nothing out there, while the Jackal does something.
Didn't know the Jackal was a pearl. But Motiv say it's made for heavy oil, so there must be something about it that makes it hook on the pattern I play on.
If you have much rev and the other stuff that gives much friction, the ball will hook so much.
A guy who throws without the thumb at the club I'm in threw both the Sinister and the Jackal. Both balls hooked so much that they went from one side to the other. The Sinister hit the 7 pin, the Jackal went into the gutter.
I'm very curious about if he could manage a strike with the Jackal if he stood far left, but the guy has back problems these days. And the other guys who throw without the thumb in the club can't get their fingers in the holes.
I'd try myself but I suck at throwing without the thumb.

At yeasterday's practice I had problems getting the Jackal to hook. Keep in mind that I'm very rev challenged
So I moved a few boards to the right (had left foot on the middle or the middle line on the inside of the sole).
Then aimed for the middle of the 1 and 2 mark out there. Got 3-4 strikes in a row that way.
So Monday's match is going to be interesting.

The Carnage is probably better than the original though.
But as I keep telling people, all balls made for heavy oil patterns are great IF you can throw them properly. Good rev and all that other stuff giving the balls more friction.

Quote from: ThomasBowling on February 11, 2016, 10:29:18 AM

In my arsenal I have a Roto Grip Sinister and the Jackal.
These days the Sinister does nothing out there, while the Jackal does something.
Didn't know the Jackal was a pearl. But Motiv say it's made for heavy oil, so there must be something about it that makes it hook on the pattern I play on.
If you have much rev and the other stuff that gives much friction, the ball will hook so much.
A guy who throws without the thumb at the club I'm in threw both the Sinister and the Jackal. Both balls hooked so much that they went from one side to the other. The Sinister hit the 7 pin, the Jackal went into the gutter.
I'm very curious about if he could manage a strike with the Jackal if he stood far left, but the guy has back problems these days. And the other guys who throw without the thumb in the club can't get their fingers in the holes.
I'd try myself but I suck at throwing without the thumb.

At yeasterday's practice I had problems getting the Jackal to hook. Keep in mind that I'm very rev challenged
So I moved a few boards to the right (had left foot on the middle or the middle line on the inside of the sole).
Then aimed for the middle of the 1 and 2 mark out there. Got 3-4 strikes in a row that way.
So Monday's match is going to be interesting.

The Carnage is probably better than the original though.
But as I keep telling people, all balls made for heavy oil patterns are great IF you can throw them properly. Good rev and all that other stuff giving the balls more friction.

thanks for the info.. How do you have your Jackal drilled?  I talked to a guy that hates the Carnage.  He said it hooks at your feet and did nothing at all down lane.  I'm sure there wasn't enough oil for it maybe??  I didn't see it, so I'm not sure how it looked.  Strong solids tend to not get down the lane for me so that is why I'm leaning toward the Jackal.

If you are going to be at Travis this weekend, I'll bring my Revolt Havoc and my new Jackyl Carnage. Depending on the pattern Rob puts down, seeing both balls should give you a better idea.

Of course, you are welcome to throw them a few times(if your hand fits).

Quote from: milorafferty on February 11, 2016, 11:48:15 AM

Quote from: J_w73 on February 11, 2016, 11:43:46 AM

Quote from: ThomasBowling on February 11, 2016, 10:29:18 AM

In my arsenal I have a Roto Grip Sinister and the Jackal.
These days the Sinister does nothing out there, while the Jackal does something.
Didn't know the Jackal was a pearl. But Motiv say it's made for heavy oil, so there must be something about it that makes it hook on the pattern I play on.
If you have much rev and the other stuff that gives much friction, the ball will hook so much.
A guy who throws without the thumb at the club I'm in threw both the Sinister and the Jackal. Both balls hooked so much that they went from one side to the other. The Sinister hit the 7 pin, the Jackal went into the gutter.
I'm very curious about if he could manage a strike with the Jackal if he stood far left, but the guy has back problems these days. And the other guys who throw without the thumb in the club can't get their fingers in the holes.
I'd try myself but I suck at throwing without the thumb.

At yeasterday's practice I had problems getting the Jackal to hook. Keep in mind that I'm very rev challenged
So I moved a few boards to the right (had left foot on the middle or the middle line on the inside of the sole).
Then aimed for the middle of the 1 and 2 mark out there. Got 3-4 strikes in a row that way.
So Monday's match is going to be interesting.

The Carnage is probably better than the original though.
But as I keep telling people, all balls made for heavy oil patterns are great IF you can throw them properly. Good rev and all that other stuff giving the balls more friction.

thanks for the info.. How do you have your Jackal drilled?  I talked to a guy that hates the Carnage.  He said it hooks at your feet and did nothing at all down lane.  I'm sure there wasn't enough oil for it maybe??  I didn't see it, so I'm not sure how it looked.  Strong solids tend to not get down the lane for me so that is why I'm leaning toward the Jackal.

If you are going to be at Travis this weekend, I'll bring my Revolt Havoc and my new Jackyl Carnage. Depending on the pattern Rob puts down, seeing both balls should give you a better idea.

Of course, you are welcome to throw them a few times(if your hand fits).

Sounds good. What.. you don't have the original Jackal?

Yea, I have one, but I never got around to drilling it.

Quote from: milorafferty on February 11, 2016, 11:57:34 AM

Yea, I have one, but I never got around to drilling it.

Collecting it?  Or would you want to sell it? 

Just never got around to drilling it. I'll probably will at some point.