Author Topic: Confused (Read 5710 times)

Gizmo823 · « **on:** June 18, 2014, 09:32:55 AM »

I drilled a Primal Rage about a month ago and am having mixed results. I used it on Athens in a tournament right after I drilled it and it worked pretty good. Since then, it's been iffy. It's average on a house shot, and inconsistent and touchy on everything else now. However, my Tribal that had been good to begin with, but was a bit touchy, has now been my go to ball on EVERYTHING. It just keeps getting better, it's what I expected my Rage to be. The funny thing is that the Rage I drilled lefty in January is BEAST. I don't know why the Tribal doesn't come out first all the time, but I'm going to start doing that. It shocks the pants off me everytime I pull it out now. It gets through and blends out track burn better than I expect, and comes back from further out than I expect. Not sure what to do with my Rage though, its too much on the dry, super lazy on oil, doesn't transition well and doesn't hit well.

It's drilled the same as my Tribal and Revolt, 70x4.5x35. I started drilling with shorter pins because Motiv stuff goes super super long, but I might be hurting myself. Specs are 16.5mph, 400rpm, 45 angle of rotation, 8 tilt. I've always done better with longer pins, 5-5.5ish. My Sigma Tour is 65x5.25x40, and it's incredible. I'm thinking that while the shorter pin works on the Tribal, it may be too short for the Rage and Revolt, the balls may be flaring out. Thoughts?

TWOHAND834 · « **Reply #1 on:** June 18, 2014, 11:06:44 AM »

Quote from: Gizmo823 on June 18, 2014, 09:32:55 AM

I drilled a Primal Rage about a month ago and am having mixed results. I used it on Athens in a tournament right after I drilled it and it worked pretty good. Since then, it's been iffy. It's average on a house shot, and inconsistent and touchy on everything else now. However, my Tribal that had been good to begin with, but was a bit touchy, has now been my go to ball on EVERYTHING. It just keeps getting better, it's what I expected my Rage to be. The funny thing is that the Rage I drilled lefty in January is BEAST. I don't know why the Tribal doesn't come out first all the time, but I'm going to start doing that. It shocks the pants off me everytime I pull it out now. It gets through and blends out track burn better than I expect, and comes back from further out than I expect. Not sure what to do with my Rage though, its too much on the dry, super lazy on oil, doesn't transition well and doesn't hit well.

It's drilled the same as my Tribal and Revolt, 70x4.5x35. I started drilling with shorter pins because Motiv stuff goes super super long, but I might be hurting myself. Specs are 16.5mph, 400rpm, 45 angle of rotation, 8 tilt. I've always done better with longer pins, 5-5.5ish. My Sigma Tour is 65x5.25x40, and it's incredible. I'm thinking that while the shorter pin works on the Tribal, it may be too short for the Rage and Revolt, the balls may be flaring out. Thoughts?

Sounds like maybe you just need a surface adjustment. If it is lazy on oil (too clean) and too much on dry (too flippy); sounds like you may just need to knock the polish off and maybe do a 3000 or 4000 abralon with no polish and try that. Even with the pin at 4.5 from axis; there should be no way you are flaring too much unless that diffs on that ball is in the .06 area. With you angle at 70 degrees, it doesnt sound like you have any weight hole to help make the ball flare even more. So....I would try doing a surface adjustment first and see what happens.

TWOHAND834 · « **Reply #2 on:** June 18, 2014, 11:16:19 AM »

Update to my previous post: The diff on a Primal is .05 for a 15 pound ball. However, the RG is 2.55. So the ball should still get through the fronts pretty well. The Athens pattern is 40 feet in length and decent volume. So the ball should have had no problem with flaring issues. The Tribal is not as skid flip as the Primal. RGs are the same but the diff is .037 on a 15 pound ball. Surface OOB on the Primal is 5500 whereas the Tribal is 5000. The difference between a 5.25 pin and 4.5 pin may be 2-3 boards (according to Blueprint software). So not sure that a .75 inch difference is going to be that significant. Maybe a 5.25 as compared to a 3 inch pin. But not 5.25 compared to 4.5.

The only other thing to consider; is that houses tend to go to lower volume oil in the summertime as typically there are less league bowlers. So in that case, maybe the Primal is too strong for the condition and dying on the backend whereas the Tribal with a weaker cover and weaker core are matching up better.

I still stick with what I suggested before. Try a surface adjustment first and see what happens. If the adjustment s makes the ball worse, then the ball is not matching up to the condition. Simple as that.

Gizmo823 · « **Reply #3 on:** June 18, 2014, 11:42:20 AM »

Ok I'll give that a shot, thanks. Just weird because it's been a while since I've had a ball give me issues out of the box, especially with this one, as I consider it one of the best balls ever made.

TWOHAND834 · « **Reply #4 on:** June 18, 2014, 12:03:06 PM »

Quote from: Gizmo823 on June 18, 2014, 11:42:20 AM

Ok I'll give that a shot, thanks. Just weird because it's been a while since I've had a ball give me issues out of the box, especially with this one, as I consider it one of the best balls ever made.

One more thing. When you go out and throw the ball; as soon as it gets back from the ball return, pick it up and look at the oil rings. If there are pretty defined rings; then oil volume may not be the issue. If there is hardly any oil on the ball, then you know that the volume is really light and the ball may be too strong.

Secondly, pay attention to how much the ball is flaring. If you can look at your grip and see rings on both sides, then the ball could be flaring too much. If that is the case, then plug it and redrill it with the pin below the fingers. This will significantly decrease the flare on the ball and take the diff from .05 down to around .04. If you dont see oil rings on both sides, then you know the ball isnt flaring too much.

Gizmo823 · « **Reply #5 on:** June 18, 2014, 12:38:40 PM »

Really just been bowling on sport patterns this summer, there's always been defined oil rings. Route 66 and Highway to Hell most recently. The rings aren't too far apart, 1/8th-ish apart at the furthest spacing.

northface28 · « **Reply #6 on:** June 18, 2014, 12:57:33 PM »

Quote from: TWOHAND834 on June 18, 2014, 12:03:06 PM

Quote from: Gizmo823 on June 18, 2014, 11:42:20 AM
Ok I'll give that a shot, thanks. Just weird because it's been a while since I've had a ball give me issues out of the box, especially with this one, as I consider it one of the best balls ever made.

One more thing. When you go out and throw the ball; as soon as it gets back from the ball return, pick it up and look at the oil rings. If there are pretty defined rings; then oil volume may not be the issue. If there is hardly any oil on the ball, then you know that the volume is really light and the ball may be too strong.

Secondly, pay attention to how much the ball is flaring. If you can look at your grip and see rings on both sides, then the ball could be flaring too much. If that is the case, then plug it and redrill it with the pin below the fingers. This will significantly decrease the flare on the ball and take the diff from .05 down to around .04. If you dont see oil rings on both sides, then you know the ball isnt flaring too much.

Is this universal? When I put pins below my fingers, the ball flares more, not significantly less.

TWOHAND834 · « **Reply #7 on:** June 18, 2014, 01:16:59 PM »

Quote from: northface28 on June 18, 2014, 12:57:33 PM

Quote from: TWOHAND834 on June 18, 2014, 12:03:06 PM
Quote from: Gizmo823 on June 18, 2014, 11:42:20 AM
Ok I'll give that a shot, thanks. Just weird because it's been a while since I've had a ball give me issues out of the box, especially with this one, as I consider it one of the best balls ever made.

One more thing. When you go out and throw the ball; as soon as it gets back from the ball return, pick it up and look at the oil rings. If there are pretty defined rings; then oil volume may not be the issue. If there is hardly any oil on the ball, then you know that the volume is really light and the ball may be too strong.

Secondly, pay attention to how much the ball is flaring. If you can look at your grip and see rings on both sides, then the ball could be flaring too much. If that is the case, then plug it and redrill it with the pin below the fingers. This will significantly decrease the flare on the ball and take the diff from .05 down to around .04. If you dont see oil rings on both sides, then you know the ball isnt flaring too much.

Is this universal? When I put pins below my fingers, the ball flares more, not significantly less.

Could depend on where you put the weight hole if you have one. I have done some studying on Blueprint and seen various layouts and how it affects flare potential. I have a Take Down that I had to do a pin down because if I kicked the cg/MB out too far with a pin up, I risked flaring over the weight hole. By going pin below, I barely get 3 inches of flare even with my rev rate and modified P3 hole. It should be fairly universal. But maybe someone could chime in if they are seeing the same thing you are.

dballz · « **Reply #8 on:** June 19, 2014, 09:53:30 AM »

I have put 2k on my Rage & seems to be more consistent. Oob it was matching up well at 1 house. But then at different houses, it was starting to either be too long or too flippy. The 2k allows me to keep it in the oil a tad bit longer, but is still clean & strong off the spot. Not too flippy & uncontrollable.

I have less revs than Gizmo823, but pretty close to tilt, speed, & rotation. my layout Rage: 60* x 4.5" x 30*, p2.5 hole, 2k
Have a Sting & Revolt drilled similar & all 3 are awesome! Hope this helps.

CPA · « **Reply #9 on:** June 19, 2014, 11:25:11 AM »

I was very frustrated with my Primal Rage for a long time. I tried various surface adjustments. I finally put a low weight hole in it and that was the answer for me.

Gizmo823 · « **Reply #10 on:** June 24, 2014, 08:11:31 AM »

I might try a P3 hole then. I had a good long practice session Sunday, and I had the front 7 or 8 (front 10 once too) several times when I was using my Tribal or Revolt, but every time I threw the Rage it was an absolute disaster. Just a really super sensitive ball, wouldn't budge in the oil unless I really spanked it at the bottom, and if it hit friction early it was going nuts. Should have taken some video, but practice was going too well lol.

TWOHAND834 · « **Reply #11 on:** June 24, 2014, 10:56:37 AM »

Quote from: Gizmo823 on June 24, 2014, 08:11:31 AM

I might try a P3 hole then. I had a good long practice session Sunday, and I had the front 7 or 8 (front 10 once too) several times when I was using my Tribal or Revolt, but every time I threw the Rage it was an absolute disaster. Just a really super sensitive ball, wouldn't budge in the oil unless I really spanked it at the bottom, and if it hit friction early it was going nuts. Should have taken some video, but practice was going too well lol.

If that is the case, then do both a weight hole and a surface adjustment. Do a hole at P3 and knock the factory polish off and start at 3000 abralon with NO POLISH. Have to understand that surface has a greater impact on ball motion than anything. Even if you put a weight hole in it, the cover stays the same on that pattern. Polish + oil = lots of skid. Polish + friction = instant ball motion. So why not try both the surface adjustment and weight hole?

CPA · « **Reply #12 on:** June 24, 2014, 11:32:48 AM »

I changed my surface back to as close to box as I could get. Then put the weight hole in. My thought was I could always change the surface. I did not want to make too many changes at one time.

Gizmo823 · « **Reply #13 on:** June 24, 2014, 12:03:05 PM »

I hate making surface adjustments as a big part of ball selection for me includes using the factory finish, and I especially hate going with more surface that is going to take oil off the lane when I don't want to. The intent was for the Rage to be a house shot killer, and a big part of that is delaying transition with the polished surface, not speeding the process up. I realize a surface adjustment would likely fix the problem, but that's exactly what I'm trying to avoid. Yeah I'm sure it would work fine at 2000, but throwing a 2000 grit ball on a house shot that is scoreable right out of the gate is asking for trouble. Lol I wrote a couple articles on ball surface and explaining how friction works, so I understand what's going on, I just don't like it. Everyone else I've drilled a Rage for has killed it out of the box (including my lefty Rage!), and that's the reaction I liked and wanted. This one is just not working out, and if I take it to 2000, it won't be the reaction I'm after. Our surface here is also really high friction, and I'm hesitant to change anything before I try it at the other house I bowl at, it may be perfect there. I'm just surprised at what it's doing at my home house.

Quote from: TWOHAND834 on June 24, 2014, 10:56:37 AM

Quote from: Gizmo823 on June 24, 2014, 08:11:31 AM
I might try a P3 hole then. I had a good long practice session Sunday, and I had the front 7 or 8 (front 10 once too) several times when I was using my Tribal or Revolt, but every time I threw the Rage it was an absolute disaster. Just a really super sensitive ball, wouldn't budge in the oil unless I really spanked it at the bottom, and if it hit friction early it was going nuts. Should have taken some video, but practice was going too well lol.

If that is the case, then do both a weight hole and a surface adjustment. Do a hole at P3 and knock the factory polish off and start at 3000 abralon with NO POLISH. Have to understand that surface has a greater impact on ball motion than anything. Even if you put a weight hole in it, the cover stays the same on that pattern. Polish + oil = lots of skid. Polish + friction = instant ball motion. So why not try both the surface adjustment and weight hole?

Author Topic: Confused (Read 5710 times)

Gizmo823

Confused

TWOHAND834

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TWOHAND834

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Gizmo823

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TWOHAND834

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Gizmo823

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northface28

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TWOHAND834

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dballz

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CPA

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Gizmo823

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TWOHAND834

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CPA

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Gizmo823

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