Quote from: cory867 on March 18, 2016, 01:12:40 PM

Quote from: Bowler19525 on March 18, 2016, 12:50:43 PM

Motiv would most likely not be required to pay drilling fees if this wound up in court.  Their product warranty covers them for defects in materials and workmanship.  From a legal perspective, the balls were found to have a latent defect (one that could not be visibly seen by the consumer.)  A defective product, in the legal world, is one that can no longer be used for its intended purpose (by bearing the USBC sanctioned logo, that intended purpose would be for bowling in USBC sanctioned events.)  In this case, the product had a latent defect that makes it no longer usable in USBC sanctioned competition.

Motiv's warranty remedies defects in materials and workmanship by providing a replacement ball.  The warranty further states that drilling expenses are not covered.  Motiv would be showing good faith by replacing all affected balls regardless of age (their standard warranty is only 1 year.)

Incidentally, someone was using their Jackal at our sanctioned league last night.  No one even cared, which I think is going to be the general attitude for any sanctioned competition other than at the Nationals or Team USA level events.

You do realize that a sanctioned league is a USBC sanctioned event, right?  If someone on the other team protested it, even after the event, the bowler using the illegal ball would need to forfeit all games and prize money won as well as any honor score being thrown would not count. 

Yes, I fully understand that.  The fact of the matter is that most bowlers on sanctioned social leagues these days care more about the social aspect of the game than they do the awards, prize money, wins, etc.  They show up, horse around, drink beer and eat pizza and wings.  It isn't the same as 20 years ago when it was all about awards and number of wins and "point money".

I am on one of the more serious leagues at my house, and even we let people get away with things that wouldn't have flown 20 years ago.  Both the league by-laws and USBC playing rules are bent every week.

Is anyone honestly going to carry around copies of the USBC press release that announces the ban and start waving it in the faces of bowlers that put their Jackals on the rack?  The ball itself isn't going to give anyone an unfair advantage or be the sole reason why someone scored better than someone else.  I guarantee you there are people throwing illegally weighted balls regularly (more side weight, finger weight, etc. than permitted.)  That is more of an issue than a Jackal with a diff that was 2% too high before drilling.  What is the next step, force all bowlers to have their equipment weighed and logged each week before league?

This is why I didn't make an insurance comparison because insurance is not a direct parallel.  When you insure something, you're insuring it in its entirety.  This is a warranty issue, the ball is effectively defective.  What you choose to do with the ball after you purchase it is up to you.  Same would be with a golf club, if a golf club was found to be defective, the company is responsible for the club, not for also refitting it to you.  It's not the company's responsibility what you choose to do with the ball after it's purchased. 

So yes, common sense would say IF it was insured, insurance would pay for the entire thing, but again, this is why I didn't use an insurance analogy because it's not the same thing.  Wowzers went there, so I responded.  This is a warranty issue.  Motiv is responsible for the product they put out, not for what was done afterwards.  If the exact same thing were done to each and every product, you may have an argument, but how would it legally be fair to award more of a settlement to someone who "customized" their ball more?  If someone decides to just drill holes in it, and that cost them $30, while someone else got grips, a new interchangeable thumb system, their name engraved, and then paid to get the surface changed, should all that be paid for?  What if an oil extraction was done later?  How about a resurface too?  Should Motiv also then be responsible for the costs of use?  If they're responsible for one cost of use, they should be responsible for it all. 

So if over its lifetime, an OG Jackal had 2 oil extractions, 2 resurfaces, a set of grips changed, a name engraved, and perhaps even been plugged and redrilled, Motiv should be liable for all of that.  After all, all that money had gone into its use and now you can't use it anymore, and if you think they should pay for costs of use, which is what drilling is, you should also agree that they should be liable for ALL costs of use, because face it, you've now "lost" all that money you have into that ball.  Never mind that you're getting a BRAND NEW BALL for just the cost of drilling, for those who are going to get charged for it in the first place. 

Effectively you're putting the worth on the use you got out of your Jackal at $0.  You're basically telling Motiv they are putting out worthless, useless products.  You're not saying, "Oh damn, I've used the hell out of that thing and now I'm getting a new ball for free and all I have to do is pay to get it drilled? Sweet!"  I've got an old IQ Nano sitting in the back, if it suddenly got disapproved and Storm told me hey, you can have any ball you want for $70 bucks, I'd be ECSTATIC.  Awesome, got plenty of use out if it, it was a good ball, I liked it, it made me some money, now I get a brand new ball at a really big discount, sounds more like a lucky day to me than something to be pissed and enraged about. 

Quote from: ITZPS on March 18, 2016, 01:56:13 PM

This is why I didn't make an insurance comparison because insurance is not a direct parallel.  When you insure something, you're insuring it in its entirety.  This is a warranty issue, the ball is effectively defective.  What you choose to do with the ball after you purchase it is up to you.  Same would be with a golf club, if a golf club was found to be defective, the company is responsible for the club, not for also refitting it to you.  It's not the company's responsibility what you choose to do with the ball after it's purchased. 

So yes, common sense would say IF it was insured, insurance would pay for the entire thing, but again, this is why I didn't use an insurance analogy because it's not the same thing.  Wowzers went there, so I responded.  This is a warranty issue.  Motiv is responsible for the product they put out, not for what was done afterwards.  If the exact same thing were done to each and every product, you may have an argument, but how would it legally be fair to award more of a settlement to someone who "customized" their ball more?  If someone decides to just drill holes in it, and that cost them $30, while someone else got grips, a new interchangeable thumb system, their name engraved, and then paid to get the surface changed, should all that be paid for?  What if an oil extraction was done later?  How about a resurface too?  Should Motiv also then be responsible for the costs of use?  If they're responsible for one cost of use, they should be responsible for it all. 

So if over its lifetime, an OG Jackal had 2 oil extractions, 2 resurfaces, a set of grips changed, a name engraved, and perhaps even been plugged and redrilled, Motiv should be liable for all of that.  After all, all that money had gone into its use and now you can't use it anymore, and if you think they should pay for costs of use, which is what drilling is, you should also agree that they should be liable for ALL costs of use, because face it, you've now "lost" all that money you have into that ball.  Never mind that you're getting a BRAND NEW BALL for just the cost of drilling, for those who are going to get charged for it in the first place. 

Effectively you're putting the worth on the use you got out of your Jackal at $0.  You're basically telling Motiv they are putting out worthless, useless products.  You're not saying, "Oh damn, I've used the hell out of that thing and now I'm getting a new ball for free and all I have to do is pay to get it drilled? Sweet!"  I've got an old IQ Nano sitting in the back, if it suddenly got disapproved and Storm told me hey, you can have any ball you want for $70 bucks, I'd be ECSTATIC.  Awesome, got plenty of use out if it, it was a good ball, I liked it, it made me some money, now I get a brand new ball at a really big discount, sounds more like a lucky day to me than something to be pissed and enraged about. 

In essence, I agree.  However, my ball is essentially new, bought at a Motiv test drive event and drilled by a Motiv staffer.  All Motiv.  My normal driller may not ( I have not asked yet) drill the replacement for free since I did not buy it there.   So a new ball does nothing for me.  So, in reality, I have to pay to get back to where I was no fault of my own.

Now, I am not upset (hard to convey over a post) and do realize that stuff happens, life,s not fair and all that, but rather just adding my thinking to the discussion.  My ball and drilling have been taken.  It just seems logical that to make it right I should get a replacement ball and drilling.   But life is rough and I can survive a $50 loss.

Here is something I cant figure out.  RG and differential are dynamic balance issues while top weight side weight etc are static weight issues.  Why is it that static weights are measured after a ball is drilled, and dynamic specs are measured before a ball is drilled.  For example I can have a ball with 4 oz of top weight undrilled, but so long as it is under 3 oz after drilling I am legal.  For dynamic balance you can lay out a ball and put a balance hole in the right spot to exceed the undrilled differential limits and it is okay so long as the differential of the undrilled ball is legal. 

If USBC would have worried less about core issues, and more about surface alterations they could have had a more significant positive impact on the game.  For example I would propose that no ball should come from the factory with less than a 2000 grit finish, and no alteration to the surface should be allowed to take it below such limits.  These specs are no harder to monitor than dynamic imbalance, which is not even tested after a ball is drilled.

Quote from: avabob on March 23, 2016, 11:49:54 AM

Here is something I cant figure out.  RG and differential are dynamic balance issues while top weight side weight etc are static weight issues.  Why is it that static weights are measured after a ball is drilled, and dynamic specs are measured before a ball is drilled.  For example I can have a ball with 4 oz of top weight undrilled, but so long as it is under 3 oz after drilling I am legal.  For dynamic balance you can lay out a ball and put a balance hole in the right spot to exceed the undrilled differential limits and it is okay so long as the differential of the undrilled ball is legal. 

If USBC would have worried less about core issues, and more about surface alterations they could have had a more significant positive impact on the game.  For example I would propose that no ball should come from the factory with less than a 2000 grit finish, and no alteration to the surface should be allowed to take it below such limits.  These specs are no harder to monitor than dynamic imbalance, which is not even tested after a ball is drilled.

That is a really good question.  One which is also lost on some people who fret about losing to an illegal ball, when in reality, their drilled 'legal' ball may have a greater dynamic imbalance than the drilled 'illegal' ball.

I would suggest Motiv have a set up where you send your ball back, with your drilling specs, Motiv sends the new ball to you Pre-Drilled. In this scenario no one is getting ripped off or taking advantage in anyway. As for any slugs or finger tips, they could be removed before sending your ball in, and then put into the new ball upon arrival.