I didn't see this in the Jackal post, but my question is can Motiv survive this financially?

Been using just Motiv for over a year now and seeing any sort downward trend in the products or change in ownership would suck.

It's as shame that the greed of the average American person may very well put the 2nd best bowling ball company in the world out of business. Over what? $50 bucks? Balls that are illegal by an average of .0016 and .0004. Let that sink in for a minute. I'm not defending the product. I'm not defending anyone involved with this. But, .0016 and .0004....   

Cover is king. Differentials matter about as much as side weight, per USBC. And ALL of the EXPERTS here claim side weight really doesn't matter. Once again, I'm not saying that Motiv should get away with anything and that they should not be punished. But we are talking a 7 digit loss over something that TRULY does not matter in the grand scheme of things. Here is a quote from Mo, "In my experience, the layout created by the drilling technique is about 40 percent of ball reaction while the balance hole location and size are 60 percent of the reaction. I have also observed that a ball’s designed reaction may be reduced by as much as 29 percent or increased by as much as 55 percent by the drilling technique used on that ball." He also stated, "The specifications for an undrilled RipR are: diff ratio of .25, intermediate diff of .013 inches,and total diff of .042 inches.
Notice that by changing the chosen drilling technique, we can end up with drilled balls with diff ratios from .21 to .60, intermediate diffs from .008 inches to .037 inches, and total diffs from .037 inches to .061 inches."

My point? If we can manipulate these core number by the mounts listed above, how much damage did Motiv really cause by being .0016 over specification? Fine them! Put them on probation! Cease production of the balls and core in question.But do not take the balls out of the bowlers hands. They aren't gaining the advantage many of you think, if at all.

This is a point I've also been trying to articulate in certain facebook posts.  There is a youtube video that walks through the ball qualification process at USBC.  In that video, the marks made for high and low RG are done by hand. The placement of the ball on the Differential measurement machine is done by hand and lined up by hand/eyesight.  If that is in fact the way these measurements are made, then it is virtually impossible to say that it can validated to be accurate to the 10,000ths of an inch.  The upper limit is 0.60, not 0.0600.  The measurement for the Carnage was 0.060(4). If I'm at Motiv (or more importantly, the law firm that would represent them), I believe an excellent case could be made that this is a legal ball.  Original Jackal at 0.0616?  Yeah, illegal.

I'd make USBC produce analysis and validation reports that demonstrate that the measurement process can be deemed accurate to the 10,000ths of an inch. If they can, then why isn't the published limit at 4 decimal places? 

Disclaimer to my rant: Of course we are talking averages.  I recognize that individual measured ball's value may vary and the determination, according to the spec manual, is a percentage of balls that measure out of spec (I believe it is 0.6%), but they are also supposed to check from one batch , and then confirm from a second batch (I'm assuming that refers to manufacturing batches).



Anyhoo, I would have no expectation for Motiv to cover drilling cost for my son's replacement ball.  It appears that many pro-shops are stepping up and offering free drilling for the replacements if the original was purchased and drilled from their shop.  This should be lauded and encouraged by all of us.

So let me get this straight . . Motiv is replacing EVERY Jackal/Jackal Carnage regardless of manufacture date.  The Jackal came out 9/14.  Ball has been out a year and a half and Motiv isn't limiting it to purchases within the last 6 months or anything, they're replacing everything right down to the first ball that was poured a YEAR AND A HALF AGO.  I'm sure there are plenty of people who have the OG Jackal already in their basement or closet, retired and done with, who will suddenly now drag them back out pining for every single penny they can milk out of the company.  What happens when a ball cracks?  They replace the ball and you pay to get the new one drilled.  Except in this case you still have a ball you can use for anything non sanctioned.  It's just banned by USBC, and unless specifically mentioned in rules for unsanctioned or otherwise sanctioned leagues/tournaments, it's still in play. 

Only a bowler could find something wrong with the way Motiv is handling the situation.  They're doing the right thing, and pro shops should step up.  This is the time of the year when things are slowing down anyway, I find myself spending a couple hours a day just cleaning stuff or watching bowling on youtube or catching up on articles.  10-15 minutes to drill a ball when the original was purchased in my shop to begin with is just part of a warranty and good customer service.  Maybe pro shops "shouldn't" be responsible, but it's just part of the deal or part of being in the business.  Sometimes these things happen, period.  I'm not going to cry about it, and I feel like my customers have earned it.  Those who bought the ball online because it was "cheaper," well . . this is why you patronize a pro shop.  For some reason people are acting like Motiv did this intentionally or was trying to scam or cheat.  So the core molds expanded with use a little, the overage amounts to the thickness of a sheet of paper or two, Motiv is a stand up company and anyone looking to stick it to them loses my respect.

You got that right.  Bowlers are just about the most miserable people on the planet.  Only people who participate in a game/sport while constantly whining about the game/sport.  Two people see some kind of class action lawsuit out of this and demand to have drilling reimbursed.  Thankfully the rest of us show a little common sense.   

Quote from: ITZPS on March 16, 2016, 01:14:37 PM

So let me get this straight . . Motiv is replacing EVERY Jackal/Jackal Carnage regardless of manufacture date.  The Jackal came out 9/14.  Ball has been out a year and a half and Motiv isn't limiting it to purchases within the last 6 months or anything, they're replacing everything right down to the first ball that was poured a YEAR AND A HALF AGO.  I'm sure there are plenty of people who have the OG Jackal already in their basement or closet, retired and done with, who will suddenly now drag them back out pining for every single penny they can milk out of the company.  What happens when a ball cracks?  They replace the ball and you pay to get the new one drilled.  Except in this case you still have a ball you can use for anything non sanctioned.  It's just banned by USBC, and unless specifically mentioned in rules for unsanctioned or otherwise sanctioned leagues/tournaments, it's still in play. 

Only a bowler could find something wrong with the way Motiv is handling the situation.  They're doing the right thing, and pro shops should step up.  This is the time of the year when things are slowing down anyway, I find myself spending a couple hours a day just cleaning stuff or watching bowling on youtube or catching up on articles.  10-15 minutes to drill a ball when the original was purchased in my shop to begin with is just part of a warranty and good customer service.  Maybe pro shops "shouldn't" be responsible, but it's just part of the deal or part of being in the business.  Sometimes these things happen, period.  I'm not going to cry about it, and I feel like my customers have earned it.  Those who bought the ball online because it was "cheaper," well . . this is why you patronize a pro shop.  For some reason people are acting like Motiv did this intentionally or was trying to scam or cheat.  So the core molds expanded with use a little, the overage amounts to the thickness of a sheet of paper or two, Motiv is a stand up company and anyone looking to stick it to them loses my respect.

You got that right.  Bowlers are just about the most miserable people on the planet.  Only people who participate in a game/sport while constantly whining about the game/sport.  Two people see some kind of class action lawsuit out of this and demand to have drilling reimbursed.  Thankfully the rest of us show a little common sense.   

Actually, common sense, to me is:

I have had my heavy oil ball taken away through no fault of mine.  The ball and the drilling were taken away.  If the ball was stolen, would you expect a full coverage insurance policy to pay for the ball and the drilling?   

Now I know that this won't happen, but it does seem to make sense.  I am guessing that the ball drillers will be the ones losing by doing replacement drippings for free.  How many Jackals do you think are out there?  What if a driller has to do hundreds of free drillings?  Just my version of common sense...no worries, just too bad it took so long for USBC to do this after so many balls are already out there.  I like MOTIV balls and will continue with them.

Motiv would most likely not be required to pay drilling fees if this wound up in court.  Their product warranty covers them for defects in materials and workmanship.  From a legal perspective, the balls were found to have a latent defect (one that could not be visibly seen by the consumer.)  A defective product, in the legal world, is one that can no longer be used for its intended purpose (by bearing the USBC sanctioned logo, that intended purpose would be for bowling in USBC sanctioned events.)  In this case, the product had a latent defect that makes it no longer usable in USBC sanctioned competition.

Motiv's warranty remedies defects in materials and workmanship by providing a replacement ball.  The warranty further states that drilling expenses are not covered.  Motiv would be showing good faith by replacing all affected balls regardless of age (their standard warranty is only 1 year.)

Incidentally, someone was using their Jackal at our sanctioned league last night.  No one even cared, which I think is going to be the general attitude for any sanctioned competition other than at the Nationals or Team USA level events.

The problem is the warranty also implies the ball meets or exceeds all USBC rules and regulations.

As for the Jackal in league, I would not want to take that risk. Someone could shoot a video and have it end up at the local USBC office with "spin me" on it....and yeah, the user would have to forfeit those scores.

This is why I didn't make an insurance comparison because insurance is not a direct parallel.  When you insure something, you're insuring it in its entirety.  This is a warranty issue, the ball is effectively defective.  What you choose to do with the ball after you purchase it is up to you.  Same would be with a golf club, if a golf club was found to be defective, the company is responsible for the club, not for also refitting it to you.  It's not the company's responsibility what you choose to do with the ball after it's purchased. 

So yes, common sense would say IF it was insured, insurance would pay for the entire thing, but again, this is why I didn't use an insurance analogy because it's not the same thing.  Wowzers went there, so I responded.  This is a warranty issue.  Motiv is responsible for the product they put out, not for what was done afterwards.  If the exact same thing were done to each and every product, you may have an argument, but how would it legally be fair to award more of a settlement to someone who "customized" their ball more?  If someone decides to just drill holes in it, and that cost them $30, while someone else got grips, a new interchangeable thumb system, their name engraved, and then paid to get the surface changed, should all that be paid for?  What if an oil extraction was done later?  How about a resurface too?  Should Motiv also then be responsible for the costs of use?  If they're responsible for one cost of use, they should be responsible for it all. 

So if over its lifetime, an OG Jackal had 2 oil extractions, 2 resurfaces, a set of grips changed, a name engraved, and perhaps even been plugged and redrilled, Motiv should be liable for all of that.  After all, all that money had gone into its use and now you can't use it anymore, and if you think they should pay for costs of use, which is what drilling is, you should also agree that they should be liable for ALL costs of use, because face it, you've now "lost" all that money you have into that ball.  Never mind that you're getting a BRAND NEW BALL for just the cost of drilling, for those who are going to get charged for it in the first place. 

Effectively you're putting the worth on the use you got out of your Jackal at $0.  You're basically telling Motiv they are putting out worthless, useless products.  You're not saying, "Oh damn, I've used the hell out of that thing and now I'm getting a new ball for free and all I have to do is pay to get it drilled? Sweet!"  I've got an old IQ Nano sitting in the back, if it suddenly got disapproved and Storm told me hey, you can have any ball you want for $70 bucks, I'd be ECSTATIC.  Awesome, got plenty of use out if it, it was a good ball, I liked it, it made me some money, now I get a brand new ball at a really big discount, sounds more like a lucky day to me than something to be pissed and enraged about. 

Quote from: BMFOBR on March 18, 2016, 09:51:53 AM

Quote from: ITZPS on March 16, 2016, 01:14:37 PM

So let me get this straight . . Motiv is replacing EVERY Jackal/Jackal Carnage regardless of manufacture date.  The Jackal came out 9/14.  Ball has been out a year and a half and Motiv isn't limiting it to purchases within the last 6 months or anything, they're replacing everything right down to the first ball that was poured a YEAR AND A HALF AGO.  I'm sure there are plenty of people who have the OG Jackal already in their basement or closet, retired and done with, who will suddenly now drag them back out pining for every single penny they can milk out of the company.  What happens when a ball cracks?  They replace the ball and you pay to get the new one drilled.  Except in this case you still have a ball you can use for anything non sanctioned.  It's just banned by USBC, and unless specifically mentioned in rules for unsanctioned or otherwise sanctioned leagues/tournaments, it's still in play. 

Only a bowler could find something wrong with the way Motiv is handling the situation.  They're doing the right thing, and pro shops should step up.  This is the time of the year when things are slowing down anyway, I find myself spending a couple hours a day just cleaning stuff or watching bowling on youtube or catching up on articles.  10-15 minutes to drill a ball when the original was purchased in my shop to begin with is just part of a warranty and good customer service.  Maybe pro shops "shouldn't" be responsible, but it's just part of the deal or part of being in the business.  Sometimes these things happen, period.  I'm not going to cry about it, and I feel like my customers have earned it.  Those who bought the ball online because it was "cheaper," well . . this is why you patronize a pro shop.  For some reason people are acting like Motiv did this intentionally or was trying to scam or cheat.  So the core molds expanded with use a little, the overage amounts to the thickness of a sheet of paper or two, Motiv is a stand up company and anyone looking to stick it to them loses my respect.

You got that right.  Bowlers are just about the most miserable people on the planet.  Only people who participate in a game/sport while constantly whining about the game/sport.  Two people see some kind of class action lawsuit out of this and demand to have drilling reimbursed.  Thankfully the rest of us show a little common sense.   

Actually, common sense, to me is:

I have had my heavy oil ball taken away through no fault of mine.  The ball and the drilling were taken away.  If the ball was stolen, would you expect a full coverage insurance policy to pay for the ball and the drilling?   

Now I know that this won't happen, but it does seem to make sense.  I am guessing that the ball drillers will be the ones losing by doing replacement drippings for free.  How many Jackals do you think are out there?  What if a driller has to do hundreds of free drillings?  Just my version of common sense...no worries, just too bad it took so long for USBC to do this after so many balls are already out there.  I like MOTIV balls and will continue with them.

This is why I didn't make an insurance comparison because insurance is not a direct parallel.  When you insure something, you're insuring it in its entirety.  This is a warranty issue, the ball is effectively defective.  What you choose to do with the ball after you purchase it is up to you.  Same would be with a golf club, if a golf club was found to be defective, the company is responsible for the club, not for also refitting it to you.  It's not the company's responsibility what you choose to do with the ball after it's purchased. 

So yes, common sense would say IF it was insured, insurance would pay for the entire thing, but again, this is why I didn't use an insurance analogy because it's not the same thing.  Wowzers went there, so I responded.  This is a warranty issue.  Motiv is responsible for the product they put out, not for what was done afterwards.  If the exact same thing were done to each and every product, you may have an argument, but how would it legally be fair to award more of a settlement to someone who "customized" their ball more?  If someone decides to just drill holes in it, and that cost them $30, while someone else got grips, a new interchangeable thumb system, their name engraved, and then paid to get the surface changed, should all that be paid for?  What if an oil extraction was done later?  How about a resurface too?  Should Motiv also then be responsible for the costs of use?  If they're responsible for one cost of use, they should be responsible for it all. 

So if over its lifetime, an OG Jackal had 2 oil extractions, 2 resurfaces, a set of grips changed, a name engraved, and perhaps even been plugged and redrilled, Motiv should be liable for all of that.  After all, all that money had gone into its use and now you can't use it anymore, and if you think they should pay for costs of use, which is what drilling is, you should also agree that they should be liable for ALL costs of use, because face it, you've now "lost" all that money you have into that ball.  Never mind that you're getting a BRAND NEW BALL for just the cost of drilling, for those who are going to get charged for it in the first place. 

Effectively you're putting the worth on the use you got out of your Jackal at $0.  You're basically telling Motiv they are putting out worthless, useless products.  You're not saying, "Oh damn, I've used the hell out of that thing and now I'm getting a new ball for free and all I have to do is pay to get it drilled? Sweet!"  I've got an old IQ Nano sitting in the back, if it suddenly got disapproved and Storm told me hey, you can have any ball you want for $70 bucks, I'd be ECSTATIC.  Awesome, got plenty of use out if it, it was a good ball, I liked it, it made me some money, now I get a brand new ball at a really big discount, sounds more like a lucky day to me than something to be pissed and enraged about. 

Quote from: todvan on March 18, 2016, 12:06:13 PM

Quote from: BMFOBR on March 18, 2016, 09:51:53 AM

Quote from: ITZPS on March 16, 2016, 01:14:37 PM

So let me get this straight . . Motiv is replacing EVERY Jackal/Jackal Carnage regardless of manufacture date.  The Jackal came out 9/14.  Ball has been out a year and a half and Motiv isn't limiting it to purchases within the last 6 months or anything, they're replacing everything right down to the first ball that was poured a YEAR AND A HALF AGO.  I'm sure there are plenty of people who have the OG Jackal already in their basement or closet, retired and done with, who will suddenly now drag them back out pining for every single penny they can milk out of the company.  What happens when a ball cracks?  They replace the ball and you pay to get the new one drilled.  Except in this case you still have a ball you can use for anything non sanctioned.  It's just banned by USBC, and unless specifically mentioned in rules for unsanctioned or otherwise sanctioned leagues/tournaments, it's still in play. 

Only a bowler could find something wrong with the way Motiv is handling the situation.  They're doing the right thing, and pro shops should step up.  This is the time of the year when things are slowing down anyway, I find myself spending a couple hours a day just cleaning stuff or watching bowling on youtube or catching up on articles.  10-15 minutes to drill a ball when the original was purchased in my shop to begin with is just part of a warranty and good customer service.  Maybe pro shops "shouldn't" be responsible, but it's just part of the deal or part of being in the business.  Sometimes these things happen, period.  I'm not going to cry about it, and I feel like my customers have earned it.  Those who bought the ball online because it was "cheaper," well . . this is why you patronize a pro shop.  For some reason people are acting like Motiv did this intentionally or was trying to scam or cheat.  So the core molds expanded with use a little, the overage amounts to the thickness of a sheet of paper or two, Motiv is a stand up company and anyone looking to stick it to them loses my respect.

You got that right.  Bowlers are just about the most miserable people on the planet.  Only people who participate in a game/sport while constantly whining about the game/sport.  Two people see some kind of class action lawsuit out of this and demand to have drilling reimbursed.  Thankfully the rest of us show a little common sense.   

Actually, common sense, to me is:

I have had my heavy oil ball taken away through no fault of mine.  The ball and the drilling were taken away.  If the ball was stolen, would you expect a full coverage insurance policy to pay for the ball and the drilling?   

Now I know that this won't happen, but it does seem to make sense.  I am guessing that the ball drillers will be the ones losing by doing replacement drippings for free.  How many Jackals do you think are out there?  What if a driller has to do hundreds of free drillings?  Just my version of common sense...no worries, just too bad it took so long for USBC to do this after so many balls are already out there.  I like MOTIV balls and will continue with them.

Now your just showing off!