win a ball from Bowling.com

Author Topic: Motiv Surfaces question... Please HELP!  (Read 22743 times)

L3nn0n

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 415
Motiv Surfaces question... Please HELP!
« on: March 14, 2015, 12:12:57 AM »
I am so confused with the Motiv factory finish guide. i.e: If I have a Covert Revolt at 3K and want to take it back to OOB which is 4000 Grit Laser Scan Sanded (¿?) What should I do? Can some one translate me the Motiv terms into Abralon or Siaair pads?

Also one more question, lets say I have a Venom Shock at 3K and I want to add some surface and put it at 2K, what should I do? Do I just take the 2K pad and do the 6 sides of the ball and thats it? Or do I need to go all the way 500/1000/2000 in order to put it at 2K? I just got a spinner and I don't really know what to do. I am confused between adding surface or polishing a ball and a full resurface. The instructions in the Motiv site are for full resurface, right? Or what if I have a Sting at 3K with polish and want to add surface and put it 1K with polish!? It is so complicated!

 I also read about wetting the pads before using them, what's the difference between wetting them or not?

So basically I don't know what and how to do it. Any kind soul in here that would like to help me?

Thanks in advance!
« Last Edit: March 14, 2015, 01:42:32 AM by L3nn0n »

 

charlest

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 24524
Re: Motiv Surfaces question... Please HELP!
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2015, 08:54:39 AM »
You are way over-thinking this. It seems complicated because you haven't done this before. With practice and experience, it will become 2nd nature to you.

Of course, you should not use your good balls to start learning surface changes. Use and older ball and test it by throwing it after you make changes.

Most surface techniques published by manufacturers are NOT the way they do it in the factory. They are ways they suggest that you can use to closely emulate the factory process. This is also why many people with spinners put their own surface on every new ball; this allows them to replicate their starting process when it becomes necessary to maintain the surface. Some factory finishes are or can be extremely hard to replicate.

Always have a spray bottle of water on hand. Spray the pad and spray the ball while spinning it. You DO NOT want to breathe in resin dust! Plus the water acts as a lubricant and way to stablize the process. You need the have 3 sides of something around the spinner to prevent splashing of water and slurry and polish.

1 Surface:
If you're making a change, you should have some concept of what your starting point is.
So, if the ball is at 3000 grit, is it at 500/3000 or is it at 500/1000/2000/3000 grit. The idea is if you know where you're starting, then you know how to get to where you want to be.

If it's 500/3000 and you want to go to 500/4000, then redo the 500 grit base and then applying the 4000 grit pad.
If it's 500/3000 and you want to go to 500/3000/4000, just apply the 4000 grit pad.
If it's 500/3000 and you want to go to 500/1000/2000/4000, then do that whole sequence.
Those are not all possibilities. You should be able to extrapolate for any other surface you want for those examples.

As for 6 sides, that may be excessive for every surface change. You may want to do that for a total reset of the surface, especially with lower grits. Otherwise, with growing experience, 2 or 4 sides will be perfectly sufficient in most cases.

2. Polish:
This can be tricky. All polishes use micro-abrasives to achieve the shine or gloss you  see. Polish is NOT a coating like paint or varnish. It is a modification of the surface.

All polishes have varying degrees of micro-abrasives in them, in different sizes and different quantities. You should, again, know where your starting point is. In the extreme, polish over 500 grit is vastly different from polish over 4000 grit. Different polishes will change the underlying base grit on which you are applying the polish to different results. Usually the glossier or more polished the appearance, the finer the grit level of the resulting surface will be. Most balls, that appear polished, have grit levels of around 5000 or more. 99% will be from 4500 - 6000 grit.
(An over used 4000 grit pad will make a ball, starting around 2000 grit base level, appear polished BECAUSE the used 4000 pad has become 5000 - 6000 grit through wear. This is also how you know a used 4000 grit pad is used up.)

The more polish you apply, the higher the gloss & the higher the final grit.
The more time you spin it, the higher the gloss & the higher the final grit.
The more pressure you apply, the higher the gloss & the higher the final grit.

There are a lot of human factor variables here. Add in the different types of polishes, add in the potentially different base grit and you can see you need to practice and understand through experience, what you're doing. Once you do this, you'll hardly give it a 2nd thought and just proceed because you know where you are and where you want to be.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2015, 09:01:35 AM by charlest »
"None are so blind as those who will not see."

Aloarjr810

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2149
  • Alley Katz Strike!
Re: Motiv Surfaces question... Please HELP!
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2015, 09:12:54 AM »
I am so confused with the Motiv factory finish guide. i.e: If I have a Covert Revolt at 3K and want to take it back to OOB which is 4000 Grit Laser Scan Sanded (¿?) What should I do? Can some one translate me the Motiv terms into Abralon or Siaair pads?


The Motiv terms don't really need to be translated into Abralon or Siaair pads, they already are in those terms.

Using the Motiv guide here:
http://www.motivbowling.com/userfiles/filemanager/1576/

The 4000 Grit LSS steps shown are 500/1000/2000/4000, those are the Abralon/Siaair grits used.

At the bottom of the page it shows how long to do each step also.

Which is 15 seconds for each side.


Aloarjr810
----------
Click For My Grip

mattypizon

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 414
Re: Motiv Surfaces question... Please HELP!
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2015, 10:01:36 AM »
Those 2 replies should be more than sufficient.

Just wanted to add try searching "bowling ball spinner" on YouTube as well so you can SEE the process in action.

And you can also check the websites of some of the spinner manufacturers for possible tutorials. Innovative and vertex should have something.

Good luck!

Brickguy221

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9918
Re: Motiv Surfaces question... Please HELP!
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2015, 12:27:08 PM »
I am so confused with the Motiv factory finish guide. i.e: If I have a Covert Revolt at 3K and want to take it back to OOB which is 4000 Grit Laser Scan Sanded (¿?) What should I do? Can some one translate me the Motiv terms into Abralon or Siaair pads?


The Motiv terms don't really need to be translated into Abralon or Siaair pads, they already are in those terms.

Using the Motiv guide here:
http://www.motivbowling.com/userfiles/filemanager/1576/

The 4000 Grit LSS steps shown are 500/1000/2000/4000, those are the Abralon/Siaair grits used.

At the bottom of the page it shows how long to do each step also.

Which is 15 seconds for each side.




+1 when following these instructions on Motiv balls. I have followed these instructions on my Moti balls and they returned as close to NIB finish as you will ever get. Just be sure to do 15 seconds where it says 15 seconds and 30 seconds where it says "X 2". Also don't press hard when you sand the ball. I have been succesful with the Motiv formula using only very light pressure to almsot no pressure on the sanding part.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2015, 12:30:36 PM by Brickguy221 »
"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away"

L3nn0n

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 415
Re: Motiv Surfaces question... Please HELP!
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2015, 01:04:08 PM »
Wow! I was expecting some help, but not this! Thank you so much charlest! I just printed this so I can have it with me while I learn how to do it. You are completely right, I always overthink things, specially when is bowling related lol

Thanks also to aloarjr810, martypizon and brickguy! So excited to try it on some of my equipment! I wanted to try it in my Forza, I just got it and OOB is strong for me, so i will try 3K with some polish, but first I'll try it with my Aura Paranormal which right now is a 1200 sandpaper and I'll try it with 2K. Is there much difference between 1200 and 2000? For THS...

Also, is there a difference between the Siaair pads and the sand paper? I bought pads, 500, 1000, 2000, 3000 and 4000 and for polish I bought the Motiv Polish Gel.

charlest

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 24524
Re: Motiv Surfaces question... Please HELP!
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2015, 01:22:30 PM »
Wow! I was expecting some help, but not this! Thank you so much charlest! I just printed this so I can have it with me while I learn how to do it. You are completely right, I always overthink things, specially when is bowling related lol

Thanks also to aloarjr810, martypizon and brickguy! So excited to try it on some of my equipment! I wanted to try it in my Forza, I just got it and OOB is strong for me, so i will try 3K with some polish, but first I'll try it with my Aura Paranormal which right now is a 1200 sandpaper and I'll try it with 2K. Is there much difference between 1200 and 2000? For THS...

Also, is there a difference between the Siaair pads and the sand paper? I bought pads, 500, 1000, 2000, 3000 and 4000 and for polish I bought the Motiv Polish Gel.

You're welcome, but you might have sidestepped one of the most important suggestions:
you really, really should play (I do mean "play") with an older, less important ball to learn the touch needed and to get experience. It is kind of dangerous to go right to your best balls and start changing the surface. It won't take long to get confidant but you do need to learn first.

Yes, there is a difference between 1200 and 2000 grit.
FYI the closer you are to being speed dominant, the less difference you will see between sanding grits. The closer you are to being rev dominant, the greater the difference in ball reaction you will see between adjacent grits.
FYI #2 All grits we generally talk about these days use the FEPA grading system. I think that only Scotch Bright pads still use the US/CAMI grading system.

Siaair and Abralon (and NEAT pads) leave a lot finer finish and are much easier to learn than wet/dry sandpaper (Always use wet/dry sandpaper). Given that wet/dry sandpaper is just a flat sheet, it needs a backing, like a damp kitchen sponge, and is harder to get a neat clean, smooth finish. It takes a little longer to learn to do it right or at least a finish that you will be happy looking at. Main advantages are that w/d sandpaper is a lot cheaper and are available in a wide variety of grit levels.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2015, 01:28:57 PM by charlest »
"None are so blind as those who will not see."

Brickguy221

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9918
Re: Motiv Surfaces question... Please HELP!
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2015, 01:32:00 PM »

You're welcome, but you might have sidestepped one of the most important suggestions:
you really, really should play (I do mean "play") with an older, less important ball to learn the touch needed and to get experience. It is kind of dangerous to go right to your best balls and start changing the surface. It won't take long to get confidant but you do need to learn first.


+1 ... amen on learning on an unimportant ball first. When I first started to learn how to use a spinner, I learned this the hard way by messing up a couple of good balls.
"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away"

L3nn0n

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 415
Re: Motiv Surfaces question... Please HELP!
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2015, 01:50:33 PM »
Unfortunately I don't have an older, unimportant ball right now, i just got all my equipment in the last three, four months and got rid of all my old equipment. My "oldest" ball is my Aura Paranormal which is one of my favorites... Should I get a used, cheap one to try?

I am a little bit more of a speed dominant bowler, 16.26 mph and about 200 revs...

Ok, I asked because I saw that there is a lot of variety of sandpaper, like 1500 for example, and there is no 1500 Siaair or Abralon, but I guess I'll stick with the pads only.

Thanks again!

charlest

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 24524
Re: Motiv Surfaces question... Please HELP!
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2015, 02:38:33 PM »
Unfortunately I don't have an older, unimportant ball right now, i just got all my equipment in the last three, four months and got rid of all my old equipment. My "oldest" ball is my Aura Paranormal which is one of my favorites... Should I get a used, cheap one to try?

I am a little bit more of a speed dominant bowler, 16.26 mph and about 200 revs...

Ok, I asked because I saw that there is a lot of variety of sandpaper, like 1500 for example, and there is no 1500 Siaair or Abralon, but I guess I'll stick with the pads only.

Thanks again!

No problem.
Ask a  friend if they have an old ball that you can experiment with. Maybe the local pro shop has one, but it would be better if you could not only "play" with it but throw it to see how what you did results in what kind of change in its reaction (it isn't essential, but it's an awfully good thing to do). But that means it would have to be drilled for you or very close to your specs.

Maybe the local pro shop has a used one they can't sell that would only cost you close to the price of plugging and redrilling. Most places do. Or maybe check Ebay; there is often some old ball that someone can't seem to sell.

This place has a large selection of Siaair pads including 1500 grit.
http://www.bowlingbeat.com/Category/2-siaair-velvet-pads.aspx
"None are so blind as those who will not see."

L3nn0n

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 415
Re: Motiv Surfaces question... Please HELP!
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2015, 05:10:45 PM »
No problem.
Ask a  friend if they have an old ball that you can experiment with. Maybe the local pro shop has one, but it would be better if you could not only "play" with it but throw it to see how what you did results in what kind of change in its reaction (it isn't essential, but it's an awfully good thing to do). But that means it would have to be drilled for you or very close to your specs.

Maybe the local pro shop has a used one they can't sell that would only cost you close to the price of plugging and redrilling. Most places do. Or maybe check Ebay; there is often some old ball that someone can't seem to sell.

This place has a large selection of Siaair pads including 1500 grit.
http://www.bowlingbeat.com/Category/2-siaair-velvet-pads.aspx

Yeah, I am gonna do that. My PSO guy might be able to give me one of the ones he has there but as you said, it will be better if it can be one that I can throw so I can see the difference by myself... Oh well, If I already spent a lot on the new equipment, oven and spinner, why not another 30, 40 for a test ball right? And I just sold a pretty good Visionary Gryphon G-3 for 40 bucks, damn!

Precisely on that website I bought the Siaair pads, but I don't know why I didn't see the 1500 grit, I am gonna place a new order and since it was free shipping there will be no harm... By the way, they shipped in no time and I got it in 3 days after I placed my order!

Thanks again chariest! You've been really, really helpful!

charlest

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 24524
Re: Motiv Surfaces question... Please HELP!
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2015, 06:53:38 PM »
No problem.
Ask a  friend if they have an old ball that you can experiment with. Maybe the local pro shop has one, but it would be better if you could not only "play" with it but throw it to see how what you did results in what kind of change in its reaction (it isn't essential, but it's an awfully good thing to do). But that means it would have to be drilled for you or very close to your specs.

Maybe the local pro shop has a used one they can't sell that would only cost you close to the price of plugging and redrilling. Most places do. Or maybe check Ebay; there is often some old ball that someone can't seem to sell.

This place has a large selection of Siaair pads including 1500 grit.
http://www.bowlingbeat.com/Category/2-siaair-velvet-pads.aspx

Yeah, I am gonna do that. My PSO guy might be able to give me one of the ones he has there but as you said, it will be better if it can be one that I can throw so I can see the difference by myself... Oh well, If I already spent a lot on the new equipment, oven and spinner, why not another 30, 40 for a test ball right? And I just sold a pretty good Visionary Gryphon G-3 for 40 bucks, damn!

Precisely on that website I bought the Siaair pads, but I don't know why I didn't see the 1500 grit, I am gonna place a new order and since it was free shipping there will be no harm... By the way, they shipped in no time and I got it in 3 days after I placed my order!

Thanks again chariest! You've been really, really helpful!

No charge  ;D ;D. And best of luck!
"None are so blind as those who will not see."

L3nn0n

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 415
Re: Motiv Surfaces question... Please HELP!
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2015, 11:00:35 PM »
One last question... How often do I need to resurface a ball? I read that times are different for solids and polished balls... How often should I perform a regular surface and when is the time for a full one?

charlest

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 24524
Re: Motiv Surfaces question... Please HELP!
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2015, 09:58:58 AM »
One last question... How often do I need to resurface a ball? I read that times are different for solids and polished balls... How often should I perform a regular surface and when is the time for a full one?

That is very dependent on the ball's coverstock and its finish, the bowler's delivery, and the lane surface.

Some people & some balls see large changes very quickly, like in 6 - 12 games. Others can go longer. It is up to you to watch the ball's reaction AND its surface as you bowl. It make look fine, but the reaction (if you're sure the oil is the same) may be not good to as much as terrible. Other times, the surface looks terrible but the ball reaction seems good.

A quick rule of thumb is that finer the girt (4000) needs touch-up or freshening maybe as often as 9 - 12 games (Some people do it after every bowling session). Rougher finishes (500 - 1500 grit)  usually need freshening every 12 - 25 games; some people do it every 6 - 9 games.

I'd suggest do a total re-surface no more than every 50 - 60 games, especially with today's premium, expensive, sensitive coverstocks.

One Roto-Grip technician said a year or two ago that, after 7 games, one of their new balls at the time needed to be re-surfaced.
"None are so blind as those who will not see."

L3nn0n

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 415
Re: Motiv Surfaces question... Please HELP!
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2015, 12:33:31 PM »
That is very dependent on the ball's coverstock and its finish, the bowler's delivery, and the lane surface.

Some people & some balls see large changes very quickly, like in 6 - 12 games. Others can go longer. It is up to you to watch the ball's reaction AND its surface as you bowl. It make look fine, but the reaction (if you're sure the oil is the same) may be not good to as much as terrible. Other times, the surface looks terrible but the ball reaction seems good.

A quick rule of thumb is that finer the girt (4000) needs touch-up or freshening maybe as often as 9 - 12 games (Some people do it after every bowling session). Rougher finishes (500 - 1500 grit)  usually need freshening every 12 - 25 games; some people do it every 6 - 9 games.

I'd suggest do a total re-surface no more than every 50 - 60 games, especially with today's premium, expensive, sensitive coverstocks.

One Roto-Grip technician said a year or two ago that, after 7 games, one of their new balls at the time needed to be re-surfaced.

Noted! I will have to have a log so I can take notes of how many games I bowled with each ball. The more deeper I go into this sport, the more complicated it is! lol but at the same time every time gets more and more exciting! Next time please give me your Paypal account because I guess you will start to charge me for the advice lol thanks again chariest!