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Author Topic: Usbc details on motive jackals Chad Murphy response  (Read 23468 times)

tburky

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Usbc details on motive jackals Chad Murphy response
« on: March 24, 2016, 06:11:20 PM »
In light of recent public statements on the topic, I want to take this opportunity to provide some of the background regarding USBC’s decision to revoke its approval of two Motiv brand bowling balls. This won’t be a Q&A session so I will not be responding to comments as I have on occasion in the past.

To begin, I want to acknowledge Motiv’s Silver-level sponsorship of USBC. The Motiv brand is a registered product on both the PBA and PWBA Tours. They have been good partners of bowling and we have always worked diligently to be good partners with them in return.

USBC first contacted Motiv on February 26 and notified them about the specification issue. This was more than two weeks before the revocation decision was announced. Statements suggesting that USBC had not communicated with Motiv, or that its decision was intended to blindside them without warning, simply are not true.

USBC’s responsibility to the sport in this situation is clear. We are the National Governing Body for bowling. Part of our role in that capacity is to provide a level playing field for all the equipment used at USBC certified events. We do this through uniform and transparent specifications. When a product exceeds one or more of those specifications, a risk of competitive imbalance occurs both for manufacturers and bowlers alike. This is where USBC must step in. Indeed, this is why sports like bowling have a National Governing Body. 

Our spot checking test process is straightforward and described in detail in the USBC Equipment Specifications and Certifications Manual. USBC periodically obtains ball samples through the normal chains of distribution and they are tested. When there is a concern, the number of balls tested is statistically significant. Here, many Jackal and Jackal Carnage balls were obtained from distribution points across the country and tested. USBC took the additional step of consulting with an independent Six Sigma "black belt" with expertise in manufacturing variance in order to confirm the sample size of the balls we were testing was an accurate representation of these products on the overall market.

The specification rules in the USBC Equipment Specifications and Certifications Manual state: The maximum differential radius of gyration standard specification is 0.060". The maximum percentage of non-conforming balls USBC will allow in the manufacturing process for approval is 0.6%.

Prior to its most recent news release, Motiv had publically acknowledged that our USBC spot check tests showed, “There was an average differential of .0604 on the Jackal Carnage and .0616 on the original Jackal.” While this is true, it is not the only relevant data point. The percentage of balls on the market that are out of compliance also must be considered. Based upon USBC’s testing, the percentage of non-conforming balls exceeded the 0.6% standard.

As noted above, USBC shared this data with Motiv before announcing the revocation of approval for the two balls in issue. In my personal conversations with Motiv, no one ever questioned the validity of USBC’s data or claimed that our specifications were in any way unclear. In the past, USBC has stated in writings to Motiv and to other manufacturers: “Balls that are found to be outside of USBC specifications will result in the approval status of that ball being revoked.” 

Thus, given our testing results and the clear specification parameters in our written policy, USBC’s responsibility to the sport of bowling is clear. As a National Governing Body we have a duty to enforce the rules of the sport as stated. Because an unacceptably high number of the Jackal and Jackal Carnage balls exceed the allowable maximum differential radius of gyration standard specification, their approval status has been revoked.

Motiv then published an official statement on its website taking a very different tone than its representatives did in my personal conversations with them about this issue. They state: “We believe that both balls should be reinstated on the USBC Approved Ball List, and we are reaching out to the USBC to have meaningful, effective dialogue to resolve this matter together in a manner that is best for all those affected by the USBC's decision and ruling, especially you the bowlers, pro shops, bowling alleys, and enthusiasts.”

USBC is open to a dialogue with Motiv, but our decision here was driven by data, not dialogue. Absent valid data to the contrary, there is no basis upon which USBC’s policies or rules contemplate reinstatement of approval for these balls. The data indicating an unacceptably high percentage of the balls are non-compliant, determines the outcome.

In closing, I remind everyone of USBC’s responsibility here. It is found in our mission statement: “The USBC is the National Governing Body for bowling. Our mission is to provide services, resources and standards for the sport.” When our standards have been exceeded, we have a duty to act. And that is exactly what we have done here.

 

MI 2 AZ

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Re: Usbc details on motive jackals Chad Murphy response
« Reply #46 on: March 26, 2016, 01:23:50 PM »
Haven't caught up yet, but a couple of points.

1.  The USBC Ball Manufacturing Specifications states that Differential radius of gyration will be from a minimum of NONE (0.000) to a maximum of 0.060.  Could that not be considered as saying you are allowed 0.030 plus or minus 0.030?  So you are not allowed to exceed 0.060 period.

2.  Arguing that some balls were grandfathered in with a higher upper limit.  Some are saying that those should have been banned too.  USBC also grandfathered in all balls WITHOUT the USBC engraving that were made prior to the rule change.  Should they not have done that?

Now to catch up.
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Azaelv

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Re: Usbc details on motive jackals Chad Murphy response
« Reply #47 on: March 26, 2016, 02:33:14 PM »
For the folks wanting Motiv to sue the USBC..  Who do you think pays to defend a lawsuit?  We do!  For people complaining about where their dues go now wait until USBC has to defend a lawsuit for enforcing the rules.

This an unfortunate situation.  Quality control problems, indifference whatever.  You want a ball to be USBC certified then you adhere to the rules.  I expect what will ultimately happen is Motiv files for bankruptcy protection and then as unsecured creditors you guys stuck with these balls will get nothing.

Motiv owners are swimming and whiping their butts with money, thats how rich they are
Motiv Paranoia 40*4*55
Motiv Jackal Carnage 40*4*55
Hammer BWRLS 50*4*55
RG Haywire 40*3.5*50
Storm Rocket 4.5*4*2
Motiv Burn 50*5*40
Motiv Tag 50*5*40
RG Devour 55*5.5*60
Motiv Venom Shock 45*3 3/4*35

PAP 4 3/4" left 1/2 up
Revs: 400.     Ball Speed: 16 mph

WOWZERS

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Re: Usbc details on motive jackals Chad Murphy response
« Reply #48 on: March 26, 2016, 03:08:19 PM »
Motiv's owners might be rich, but if the company is set up as an LLC or some other sort of business that protects the assets of the owner(s), it really doesn't matter how much money the owner(s) have, if the company is bankrupt, the company is bankrupt. That is for any company in any business. Trying to pierce the corporate veil is very difficult in most court cases.

JamminJD

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Re: Usbc details on motive jackals Chad Murphy response
« Reply #49 on: March 26, 2016, 04:12:31 PM »
Motiv's owners might be rich, but if the company is set up as an LLC or some other sort of business that protects the assets of the owner(s), it really doesn't matter how much money the owner(s) have, if the company is bankrupt, the company is bankrupt. That is for any company in any business. Trying to pierce the corporate veil is very difficult in most court cases.
That's why llc is good thing, to protect the people personal assets that own the company  in case they are sued. Good point.

Juggernaut

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Re: Usbc details on motive jackals Chad Murphy response
« Reply #50 on: March 26, 2016, 05:09:24 PM »
 It doesn't matter how much money the owners have, or are worth. What matters is if they have any integrity, and how they feel about whether they are responsible for this situation or not.

 It truly is sad that it has devolved to the stage it has. Especially when all this could've been avoided so easily.

 The balls had to be banned. By what means, and on what time frame I don't know, but it had to happen.

 Since they have been, and it is clearly Motiv's fault, they are the ones who should bear the nurden of making it right.

 C'mon guys, get your heads together and figure out how to get it done. You have customers out here who you owe it to. They bought a product from you that was GUARANTEED to be free of defects in workmanship, but they were not.

 Make good on that guarantee.
Learn to laugh, and love, and smile, cause we’re only here for a little while.

s_hemker

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Re: Usbc details on motive jackals Chad Murphy response
« Reply #51 on: March 26, 2016, 08:57:31 PM »
They are starting the process of getting them exchanged. Form is ready but software needs to be implemented to track data for the replacement process.

WhateverWhateverShoes

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Re: Usbc details on motive jackals Chad Murphy response
« Reply #52 on: March 26, 2016, 11:33:37 PM »
So as a complete newb and new bowler I read this statement and wonder with so many numerical quotes...
Quote
When there is a concern, the number of balls tested is statistically significant. Here, many Jackal and Jackal Carnage balls were obtained from distribution points across the country and tested.
What is this 'significant' number?  What constitutes 'many'?  They should have an 'exact' number, a 'significant' number, being such a prestigious organization whom I didn't even know of before I started looking up ball reviews here.  'Many' and 'significant' should be at least 25% of balls sold?
Quote
Because an unacceptably high number of the Jackal and Jackal Carnage balls exceed the allowable maximum differential radius of gyration standard specification, their approval status has been revoked
.
Again with the vagueness?  Why?  What is the 'unacceptably' high number... EXACTLY?  50, 100, 101???  They should know, down to the ball.
Quote
USBC is open to a dialogue with Motiv, but our decision here was driven by data, not dialogue.
And what is this data USBC has completely failed to provided to the public other than their completely vague and empty terminology like 'many', 'high', 'significant', etc. etc.
Quote
The data indicating an unacceptably high percentage of the balls are non-compliant, determines the outcome.
Again, where is the actual data?  The numbers, the facts, the figures, not conjecture which is all we're left with, without the actual numbers.
Quote
“The USBC is the National Governing Body for bowling. Our mission is to provide services, resources and standards for the sport.” When our standards have been exceeded, we have a duty to act. And that is exactly what we have done here.
Sounds like a bunch of crap to me.  I know from watching your videos, they haven't been any help, unless I want to watch a guy and gal talk about everything they know without demonstrating or providing anything useful.  Of course my coach is my main source of information so maybe I am naive to what you really have to offer, but at this point I doubt it.


MI 2 AZ

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Re: Usbc details on motive jackals Chad Murphy response
« Reply #53 on: March 27, 2016, 01:18:22 AM »
So as a complete newb and new bowler I read this statement and wonder with so many numerical quotes...
Quote
When there is a concern, the number of balls tested is statistically significant. Here, many Jackal and Jackal Carnage balls were obtained from distribution points across the country and tested.
What is this 'significant' number?  What constitutes 'many'?  They should have an 'exact' number, a 'significant' number, being such a prestigious organization whom I didn't even know of before I started looking up ball reviews here.  'Many' and 'significant' should be at least 25% of balls sold?
Quote
Because an unacceptably high number of the Jackal and Jackal Carnage balls exceed the allowable maximum differential radius of gyration standard specification, their approval status has been revoked
.
Again with the vagueness?  Why?  What is the 'unacceptably' high number... EXACTLY?  50, 100, 101???  They should know, down to the ball.
Quote
USBC is open to a dialogue with Motiv, but our decision here was driven by data, not dialogue.
And what is this data USBC has completely failed to provided to the public other than their completely vague and empty terminology like 'many', 'high', 'significant', etc. etc.
Quote
The data indicating an unacceptably high percentage of the balls are non-compliant, determines the outcome.
Again, where is the actual data?  The numbers, the facts, the figures, not conjecture which is all we're left with, without the actual numbers.
Quote
“The USBC is the National Governing Body for bowling. Our mission is to provide services, resources and standards for the sport.” When our standards have been exceeded, we have a duty to act. And that is exactly what we have done here.
Sounds like a bunch of crap to me.  I know from watching your videos, they haven't been any help, unless I want to watch a guy and gal talk about everything they know without demonstrating or providing anything useful.  Of course my coach is my main source of information so maybe I am naive to what you really have to offer, but at this point I doubt it.




You are asking your questions in the wrong place.  This is a ball review site, you need to go to www.bowl.com the home of the USBC and ask them.
You will find their email address on their site.

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bowlingman817

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Re: Usbc details on motive jackals Chad Murphy response
« Reply #54 on: March 27, 2016, 01:39:06 AM »
Motiv just needs to buck up and give all these people there replacements. Over the limit is over the limit any way you look at it, even if it's just 1 ball or 5000. They are going to lose more valued customers by dragging this out instead of just doing what has to be done. My opinion is that they will make that money back with this new venom and paranoia. Suck it up, do what's right and keep producing great products just like before and all will be OK.

spmcgivern

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Re: Usbc details on motive jackals Chad Murphy response
« Reply #55 on: March 28, 2016, 08:55:41 AM »
For those wondering how many balls were or should be tested and the such.  Remember, there is a spec USBC has for the number of balls that can be out of spec in regards to differential before they determine the line of balls illegal. 

Quote
The specification rules in the USBC Equipment Specifications and Certifications Manual state: The maximum differential radius of gyration standard specification is 0.060". The maximum percentage of non-conforming balls USBC will allow in the manufacturing process for approval is 0.6%.

So if there are 10,000 Jackals in the market place then 60 balls or less must be out of spec to be legal.  Any more than 60 and the balls are illegal.  So if USBC finds 61 of the first 100 balls they tested failed the test, then they don't have to test any more.  It could mean 60% of all balls would fail or it could mean USBC got the 61 that did fail early and the rest are compliant.  It doesn't matter, too many were out of spec and the balls are illegal.  The number of balls tested is irrelevant.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2016, 08:59:21 AM by spmcgivern »

cory867

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Re: Usbc details on motive jackals Chad Murphy response
« Reply #56 on: March 28, 2016, 09:15:31 AM »
For those wondering how many balls were or should be tested and the such.  Remember, there is a spec USBC has for the number of balls that can be out of spec in regards to differential before they determine the line of balls illegal. 

Quote
The specification rules in the USBC Equipment Specifications and Certifications Manual state: The maximum differential radius of gyration standard specification is 0.060". The maximum percentage of non-conforming balls USBC will allow in the manufacturing process for approval is 0.6%.

So if there are 10,000 Jackals in the market place then 60 balls or less must be out of spec to be legal.  Any more than 60 and the balls are illegal.  So if USBC finds 61 of the first 100 balls they tested failed the test, then they don't have to test any more.  It could mean 60% of all balls would fail or it could mean USBC got the 61 that did fail early and the rest are compliant.  It doesn't matter, too many were out of spec and the balls are illegal.  The number of balls tested is irrelevant.

Well said.
- Cory

mainzer

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PittSteve

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Re: Usbc details on motive jackals Chad Murphy response
« Reply #58 on: March 28, 2016, 09:51:03 AM »
You beat me to it on the analysis article on 11thframe.

tburky

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Re: Usbc details on motive jackals Chad Murphy response
« Reply #59 on: March 28, 2016, 12:17:48 PM »
https://www.11thframe.com/news/article/8315

If you're not a subscriber of the 11th frame...you should be! Riggs did an excellent job on the articles he wrote explaining the situation at hand with motiv as well as explaining the processes involve in statistics,  determining differential, etc. Great reading in my book!

PittSteve

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Re: Usbc details on motive jackals Chad Murphy response
« Reply #60 on: March 28, 2016, 12:31:25 PM »
https://www.11thframe.com/news/article/8315

If you're not a subscriber of the 11th frame...you should be! Riggs did an excellent job on the articles he wrote explaining the situation at hand with motiv as well as explaining the processes involve in statistics,  determining differential, etc. Great reading in my book!

I agree. He is an excellent journalist. I usually have a difficult time explaining hard mathematics concepts like probability in laymans terms. But Jeff asked me the right questions that got the answers in an easy to understand way.