This discussion is about symmetric only, please don't hijack and start talking asyms... (I'm going sym only form now on....)

I need something that provides more backend motion and gets thru the pins better than my Raptor P7 (on similar conditions). I was thinking I wanted what I believe to be the more angular motion of the Vengeance.

Looking at videos today though, the Vengeance seems too similar to the Covert, which is smooth. Much more so than I thought.

Enter the Havoc. It's earlier, made for a heavier shot, but has better continuation.

Confusion ensues... I don't need another early ball and am afraid the Havoc will burn up, but the Vengeance is not impressing me in the videos...

Thoughts? Other symmetrical potentials (even if not Motiv...)

Thanks

In theory, I would ignore videos in the sense of thinking what you see is what you will get.  I feel the Raptor is more like the Vengeance than the Revolts.  If you want something that gets through the heads better with a more defined move, then either a Vengeance with a surface adjustment (and to a lesser degree a different drilling) or a Primal Rage/Remix would be the suggestion.

As Milo stated, the Forza Redline has a more defined move than the Raptor and will be similar strength.  Some bowlers like to go stronger when moving in and if you are one of them, then the Primal Rage/Remix would be my suggestion.  If not, then the Redline would be my suggestion.  I would stay away from the Octane in case you were thinking about it.  The Octane wasn't as successful and was somewhat inconsistent.

First, I REALLY appreciate you guys sticking with symmetric, as I had requested. Frankly, that's refreshing for this site...

Question, and this may morph into another conversation... I recently went to 14 from 15. I've noticed a bit of loss on hit strength. I'm also a low rev, high rotation player that has been told NEVER go above 2.50 Rg, something I have firmly believed in (Rico and Kidlost, butt out). The Forza, redline, and remix are all very interesting, but I'm worried about Rg at 14 lb. All too often over the years I've seen these types of balls lope down the alley and never get into a roll for me. Thoughts are... 1.) Tech changes, try it. 2). Frankly, go back to 15 since they always match up better to my specs....

Thoughts?

But can't you change the RG by how you drill the ball? I don't think the difference between 14 and 15 lbs matters much to the pins on a well-thrown ball.

One thing that might be something to consider, if you are already a "low rev" bowler, then you might be an even lower rev bowler if you go up in weight.

Just curious, who told you to never go lower than 2.50? Did they give a reason?

5-7 years ago, based on my high rotation and the fact that the ball got into a roll late. It actually proved to be quite evident on the lanes with hugely excessive lope easily seen. This combined with the fact that every single ball I've ever had luck with was below 2.50. Now, I know there are "those who shall not be named" that say I'm crazy, but that's a different subject! I've seen this with my own three eyes, and can't spend $200/shot denying my own evidence over the omniscient gods that grace the board.

Fair enough. I can't dispute the argument on either side with my lack of knowledge. LOL

Like you said, not much difference in well thrown ball, but maybe that's my issue... One thing I've noticed over the years is that the higher the Rg, the longer/harder it is to get into a roll. Since my problem is getting into a roll, it works against me.

So which do you like better, your Revolt or Vengenace(s)?

Well, they are both Revolts. LOL

Covert Revolt and Revolt Vengeance. I can't say I like either one more as I use them both. I use the two Vengeance more than the Covert as the Covert requires a lot of oil in the heads to really shine. Not to mention, I have one Vengeance polished and one sanded which gives me options. If I had to choose one ball and just use it, I find the Vengeance more useable across a wider range than the Covert, but that probably is something I could change with a cover adjustment.

Still, if I had to choose just one Motiv ball, it would be the Sigma Sting.

Sigmas Sting does look good in the vids, I will admit that. Can't find it anymore though....

Yea, they are pretty much gone. There is one on the internet, but the guy wants $159 for it.

The rest of them I own. LOL

Quote from: milorafferty on October 08, 2015, 07:06:28 PM

Quote from: lefty50 on October 08, 2015, 06:55:41 PM

Sigmas Sting does look good in the vids, I will admit that. Can't find it anymore though....

Yea, they are pretty much gone. There is one on the internet, but the guy wants $159 for it.

The rest of them I own. LOL

you have about 4 of them

4 drilled....
And a few more in reserve. 

Sigmas Sting does look good in the vids, I will admit that. Can't find it anymore though....

I have a used one that is plugged and ready to drill