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Author Topic: Where are the scratch bowlers in MD/DC/VA?  (Read 8174 times)

Mr Straight Ball

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Where are the scratch bowlers in MD/DC/VA?
« on: October 10, 2007, 03:55:41 AM »
It boggles my mind when I look at the Greater Baltimore yearbook and see 60 names on the high average page with the last name showing 222. I know the Capital Assn is no different.

So why aren't more high average bowlers out competing against one another?
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Mike L

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Re: Where are the scratch bowlers in MD/DC/VA?
« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2007, 07:58:02 AM »
Interesting topic

I bowl just about everything in the local, va/md/pa, area and there are about 15 people in that area that i see every week. I bowl a league at Manassas that over half the league prob averages over 200, yet not one of them would step foot in any tournament and im not sure why either.  Its not just in this area either though, ive been bowling in the chambersburg area, which has 4 houses that run a tournament on each of the 4 sundays every month.  The 4 centers are probably within a half hour of each other.  2 houses gets 30, 2 houses get 60 and all of them are basically the standard 10 to 10 wall, all start at 10 am, all are $30 entry fees with a 1:3 cash ratio.  But why is that 2 get 30 and 2 get 60?  It doesnt make any sense.  Lincoln Lanes gets anywhere from 50-80 guys but yet nellie fox and sunshine, literally 10 minutes away struggle to get 30.  Very few of the house guys at Lincoln will travel to these other centers and it boggles my mind why not.  

I dont think there is one certain thing that can be done, because no matter what you cannot please everyone.  People are always going to complain about the shot, the approaches, the right/left issue, its a no-win situation for tournament directors.  But the one thing that has been an issue in this area is no one coordinates tournaments together, however it does seem, mr. baker and mr. walton are certainly trying to help each other out and set their dates accordingly which can only help.  Now it 2 other people could get out and run tournaments on the other 2 sundays a month i think it would definitely help draw entries.  

I think the reason the chambersburg area does well is for 3 reasons, cheap entry fee, 1:3 ratio (which i think is way too high should be 1:5, but just my .02), and the most important thing is they are all regular events.  Everyone in that area knows the schedule, Nellie Fox, Lincoln Lanes, Sunshine Lanes, and Dual Lanes doubles.  And THIS NEVER CHANGES!  In our area, the few monthly tournaments that are left, waltons/bakers, could be on any given sunday and i think that hurts entries some.  If we could get some regularity in the area i think it could help draw some more of the local guys out.  One other thing that hurts is there are 2 of the bigger leagues ran on sunday mornings in the northern va area, so you figures thats over 100 bowlers that we will never see bowling.  Who knows what can be done, but i know ill continue to rack up the miles on my car and continue to support the tournaments.  

Good luck at waltons guys, im going to Lincoln cause my ball backs up at Country Club

Mike Leonard

Mr Straight Ball

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Re: Where are the scratch bowlers in MD/DC/VA?
« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2007, 04:03:28 PM »
Mike L, how is are car doing? LOL

You raised some interesting points along with WABULLETS. It's funny how people want to associate PBA with a sense of accomplishment. PBA and Vegas have a lot in common, the "house" never loses. Alls I am going to say is do the math and you'll figure it out.

As an ex-member of EMMTL, I can start to compute the dollars spent trying to cash for $400. $200 entry, $80+ in gas in tolls after driving 4-5 hours each way, throw in a bite to eat and you made $100. I apologize to those that don't deduct their expenses from their earnings and have been thinking they are making $400 each time they cash. Now that's funny!!!

WABULLETS to touch on what you highlighted:
1.They do have guaranteed money at PBA events, the centers are giving them lineage...I'd like to receive free lineage and we are only asking for the center to kick back a few hundred dollars and not the $1000+ a regional burns up in lineage. That would help us local directors spread some extra bucks around. Believe me, I see plenty of card carrying members who don't beat me at league or others at local tournaments.

2.PBA does provide the comfort of knowing what you are bowling on. Why do the best bowlers in the world need to know what they are bowling on, that always blows my mind. Do the lanes, let every bowler be forced to figure it out and master it faster then the next person. That applies to local and professional tournaments, house shot, professional house shot or World Team Challenge type conditions. We all know that was a good tournament and it was always a surprise what the WTC had laid out for us.

3.You are dead on saying that a start time needs to be followed. Its funny that the same two PBA card carrying bowlers showed up late to every tournament. Once the local tournaments started giving out zeros, people stopped coming at 10 after.

4.Maybe 12pm is to late but we don't know what people do before they come to the tournament. Meaning they might have family, church or something else they need to handle.

5.Promotion is a huge part of being successful!!! Triple Threat, funny you should mention that tournament since I was just talking to someone about this very topic this morning. There are a whole bunch of people there that know about the other stuff and duck it. Oh yeah, they are there because they know Yvette or Janeen in case you did not know. By the way, it's Dec 2 this year due to the center having some obligations in October.

6.Timely, does that mean when someone has a moment in their personal life because I know our website and VMSBT is subject to people having work and personal commitments to fulfill.

7.A sense of achievement can be obtained at any tournament or league if you have a goal set. And that goal is personal as some are there for the dollar and some are there for the title.

Mike nailed it, to many of us won't leave our comfort zone and be challenged.
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wabullets

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Re: Where are the scratch bowlers in MD/DC/VA?
« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2007, 09:23:07 AM »
MSB, I can agree with a lot of what you said as well.....


1. By and large, card carrying PBA member does not equal best bowlers around at the regional level. There are plenty of people who have their cards and you ask yourself why? Cheap practice rates? Cheap equipment? Probably. I would bet 75% of the people who have their cards have it for those reasons. They dont have it because they choose to compete at a high level.

Those who do have their cards and do compete at the regional level what it guarantees you is the opportunity to bowl in a scratch environment for real and guaranteed money. It is nice to bowl for 12.5 times your entry at minimum. Most times 15 x your entry. It is nice when you cash, that you have doubled your entry. In todays scratch bowling world of "brackets mean everything", it just isnt a viable opetin for most because of the lack of brackets. Brackets, in my opinion, are one of the biggest reasons scratch bowling on a local level is where it is.

You are also right that the PBA has the center donated to them for the weekend that they are having the event at that particular center. But it is not the bed of roses you think it is because all that free money is not coming to usaa, the players. On an average weekend in the East, we lose/PBA takes about $3600. On a weekend like Forest Hill, it is about $7000. We get to bowl for those guaranteed monies more so because of the hard work of tournament hosts and the regional managers in securing sponsorships. Without their hard work in securing those sponsorships, there would be no regional program. It would be in the same downfall as most other scratch venues these days.

2. I will agree with you again, you dont need to know weeks in advance what you are bowling on as far as conditions go....you put on your shoes, you throw your ball, you see what you got. What the original post intended to say was you know what you were getting as far as the lanes being done correctly by a professional lanesman and the shot being put down by a lane machine that is kept in spec. The Wally Hall owned houses, Greenway and Annapolis do a good job of putting down the PBA patterns. Very close to what we bowl on.  Those centers may have a knowledgable bowling staff. Suburban in York, pretty close. Perry Hall, pretty close. Ft Meade tries to but them down. Different lane machine different oil......not close. Crofton has tried...they cant even get a house shot right. The really should just turn that place in to one of those upscale Lucky Strike places. Most incompetent bowling staff I have ever seen but they sure know how to attract the Rock n bowl crowd. But most centers just have no idea how to put anything out other than a house shot. Anything else, you have just alienated your bowlers with garbage that a house you have no control over put out on the lanes.

On the other hand letting the bowlers know what they are facing in advance could be a good marketing tool. You may attract people you may not have other wise got.

4. Family obligations do come first and will  probably keep that person away regardless of start times. A religous gambler, sort of contradictory, dont you think?  lol  They are gambling either way.  

5 and 6 sort of go together. Promotion is HUGE if you are going to succeed. When you (not you but any tournament director) takes it upon themselves to run an organization, THAT becomes part of your commitments you need to fulfill. Yes,we all work. We all have family. We may even have kids with their activities. It may mean last night you had to stay up from 11pm til 130 in the morning to work on it but it is a responsibility you have chosen to undertake. If you do not take the responsibility seriously or give that commitment that you have pledged to the bowlers that you are trying to support, how will your organization succeed the way we all hope it will? You know (but most dont) that running a tournament is more than being at the bowling center on some given Sunday for 5 hours.


7. Sense of achievement is huge in my mind. I have that sense whether I cash, make the finals, win. Locally or on the road. League, Tournament or PBA. Even in practice when you feel you have conquered a flaw. The biggest achievement I see in most peoples faces these days is how much money they picked up at the bracket table. We have lost 33% of our entries for whatever reason (afraid, attrition, whatever), another 33% because of brackets. You stop running brackets you will lose 1/2 of the last 33% and you will have the last 15-20 guys who do it because they truly enjoy to compete. And there lies our biggest problem we face. The lack of desire to compete!

Mr Straight Ball

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Re: Where are the scratch bowlers in MD/DC/VA?
« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2007, 12:43:19 PM »
walbullets, thank for the "healthy" conversation versus the many on here that talk out the side of their mouth because these conversations aren't face to face. Hopefully we'll see you at some "local" tournaments when the PBA is off. ;-)
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wabullets

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Re: Where are the scratch bowlers in MD/DC/VA?
« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2007, 10:21:39 AM »
Plan on being at yours next week..........

alloutsmith3

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Re: Where are the scratch bowlers in MD/DC/VA?
« Reply #21 on: October 23, 2007, 09:03:17 PM »
I'm from the Hagerstown, MD area and there is a scratch tournament every weekend within 30 miles from me. The one that is in Hagerstown is gauranteed $500 first place for a doubles tournament, $250 each, for an entry fee of $25 each person. This tournament always fills up. All but one house pays the ratio of 1:3 with the one house paying 1:5. The entry fee for the tournaments are $25-$30 with the one house being $50. I stopped bowling in all of them because the scoring pace has become unrealistic, with most cuts being 1420-1440 for 6 games to make the stepladder. Most of the time there are 1 or 2 guys that shoot 1500 plus. There are a few houses that are not using a THS so I will be bowling in those.
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Phoneman

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Re: Where are the scratch bowlers in MD/DC/VA?
« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2007, 08:15:24 AM »
What pattern are you using this weekend at Ritchie?

Mike L

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Re: Where are the scratch bowlers in MD/DC/VA?
« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2007, 05:14:38 PM »
alloutsmith,

Why does it matter if they are dead walls or not?  I have just recently started bowling in most of those tournaments you mentioned and I have won several tournaments on tougher patterns as well.  Ive gone 300 or more over for 6 probably 5 or 6 times in that area.  I know it makes everyone equal but honestly good bowlers usually will still find a way to adapt to the enviroment.  Trust me id much rather bowl on tougher patterns too, but the problem is when you do that, you'll lose alot of guys that have no chance.  At least with THS, they will come out and support due to the fact that they feel they do have a chance.  

If you had to bowl PDW or WRW, which pattern would you prefer, US Open or house pattern?  Id like to say i think i am a decent player but id still bowl on the house shot because id feel like i have a much better chance.  Thats how alot of guys that are less talented look at it too.  You make them tough, the best will win 99% of the time, wall em up and maybe 50% so to the average house bowler theyd much rather take their chance on the easier conditions.  I just hate people saying, "oh im not bowling there because the scores are too high", why whats wrong, you dont know how to strike?  These are the reasons many tournaments are dying out and its truely sad.

Mike Leonard
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alloutsmith3

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Re: Where are the scratch bowlers in MD/DC/VA?
« Reply #24 on: October 25, 2007, 10:52:45 PM »
quote:
alloutsmith,

Why does it matter if they are dead walls or not?  I have just recently started bowling in most of those tournaments you mentioned and I have won several tournaments on tougher patterns as well.  I've gone 300 or more over for 6 probably 5 or 6 times in that area.  I know it makes everyone equal but honestly good bowlers usually will still find a way to adapt to the enviroment.  Trust me id much rather bowl on tougher patterns too, but the problem is when you do that, you'll lose alot of guys that have no chance.  At least with THS, they will come out and support due to the fact that they feel they do have a chance.  

If you had to bowl PDW or WRW, which pattern would you prefer, US Open or house pattern?  Id like to say i think i am a decent player but id still bowl on the house shot because id feel like i have a much better chance.  Thats how alot of guys that are less talented look at it too.  You make them tough, the best will win 99% of the time, wall em up and maybe 50% so to the average house bowler they'd much rather take their chance on the easier conditions.  I just hate people saying, "oh im not bowling there because the scores are too high", why whats wrong, you dont know how to strike?  These are the reasons many tournaments are dying out and its truely sad.

Mike Leonard
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It matters because when the scores become as inflated as they have and the shot as open as it is its more of a carry contest than a bowling tournament. Now before the "carry matters all the time", it matters alot more when you have to be +220 or more for 6 just to make stepladder. In my opinion the statement that the cream always rises to the top is not always true when bowling on a THS. I understand why the easier shot is put down, more bowlers equal more money for the house and for the tournament. I've had this discussion with many others and unfortunately I'm in the minority with my opinions that walled shots are for leagues not for tournaments. I will also say that I don't think they should be impossible just tighter than what they are.

As far as bowling a top level national touring player your chances might be slightly better on a THS but not as much as you think. You give them that extra room and they open the lane up bigtime, I've seen it first hand. As far as not knowing how to strike, I can string strikes with almost anyone. I have more than a few bowling accomplishments under my belt along with several tournament wins. You want to know whats truly sad about the game today, its that most bowlers don't want to be challenged anymore, they want everything handed to them on a silver platter. Your tired of hearing people complain that scores are too high, well I'm tired of hearing people whine about the shot not being easy enough or not being consistent enough or whatever the complaint of the week is. Trust me when I say that theres going to be more guys stop bowling the tournaments because their tired of shooting 220-230's all day and not having anything to show for it. Thats why the tournaments are dying out.

I'll be down to Northside in a month or 2 when I finish getting the car parted out. I hear they've been tighter there and thats the way they should be. I'm also going to continue bowling at Dual Lanes for the doubles tournaments and at the Carlisle Eagles for Jeremy Gilberts tournaments. They also run an adult/youth doubles tournament every month at Dual so I'll be bowling with my neice in those, that way when the scores are inflated I'll atleast get to enjoy her having a fun time. I'm sure I'll see you around.
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Mike L

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Re: Where are the scratch bowlers in MD/DC/VA?
« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2007, 08:58:42 AM »
Trust me I do understand what you are saying about the shot.  Id much rather bowl on tougher conditions too.  I just bowled Northside this sunday and was +103 for 6 with a 168 game 2 and led by 60.  They are much tougher there, but when I looked around there was only a handful of house bowlers bowling and the reason is they know they can't compete on that shot, well not necessarily cant compete, but if they put the house shot out the guys would probably bowl because then they feel in their comfort zone.  

Its really a no-win situation when it comes to shots.  All I know is i put my shoes on every sunday and bowl whereever the tournament is out, whether it be a house pattern or a sport shot, it makes no difference to me, because in my mind i can average 250 on a wall or 210 on something tougher.
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Mike L

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Re: Where are the scratch bowlers in MD/DC/VA?
« Reply #26 on: October 26, 2007, 09:19:26 AM »
Also in no way am I questioning your talent or accomplishments.  I just dont understand why people say they wont bowl because of the scores.  Itd be like Duke and WRW saying they wont bowl on the cheetah pattern because the field averages 240 or better.  Instead they find a way to adapt themselves to the scoring environment and find a way to make themselves competitive.

Ill be a Dual on sunday as well, so yep ill see you there.
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Gazoo

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Re: Where are the scratch bowlers in MD/DC/VA?
« Reply #27 on: October 26, 2007, 09:52:06 AM »
Most are busy playing Texas Hold'em!

alloutsmith3

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Re: Where are the scratch bowlers in MD/DC/VA?
« Reply #28 on: October 26, 2007, 04:44:28 PM »
Mike,

I know what your saying, you don't get your donators if the shot isn't a house shot. It's really sad that most bowlers won't bowl outside of their comfort zone for what ever reason they have. I didn't mean to sound like you were questioning my ability so I hope it didn't come off that way. Like you, I know I can be competitive on the THS and the sport shot. I did good in the sweepers at Sunshine this summer, all on THS, as well as some tighter pattern tournaments that I bowled in this summer. Its just that if I have the option to bowl a tournament were I have to avg 240-250 to make money or bowl with some youth bowlers and help them with their game, I'm going to choose the latter, because theres a much better since of accomplishment doing that.

I'd be willing to bet that if gave the national touring players their choice they would want to bowl on something thats more of a grind. Unfortunately they have to bowl in the higher scoring tournaments because thats what they do for a living, no bowling equals no paycheck. As for me, the money from the tournaments is just extra, so I can afford to pick and choose were I bowl. Like I said I'd much rather bowl with some youth bowlers or spend the time making myself better for when I have to bowl on the tighter patterns. That doesn't mean that I won't start bowling some of the THS tournaments again, I'm just not going to at the current moment in time.

See you Sunday at Dual.
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Mike L

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Re: Where are the scratch bowlers in MD/DC/VA?
« Reply #29 on: October 26, 2007, 05:50:58 PM »
I can respect that.  I, on the other hand, do it for the money so I cant be picky and choosy.  Of course id much rather bowl at York on Alex's sport pattern every tournament I went to but like you said you lose the donaters if that happens and yes i agree, it is very sad to see guys that average 230+ not bowl in their own house because the shot it too tough or they cant just close their eyes and throw it to ditch and know its coming back, but unfortunately thats what bowling has become.
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Mr Straight Ball

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Re: Where are the scratch bowlers in MD/DC/VA?
« Reply #30 on: November 06, 2007, 10:23:03 AM »
alloutsmith3, are you limited to bowling those tournaments only? You have missed some tournaments within a 1 hour drive that have been giving just what you say you are looking for. You should of been at Gaithersburg Sunday, they were not a gimme by any means but they weren't impossible. I hope we get to see you venture out and join us!

I can vouch for Mike, he bowls EVERYTHING! Easy, tough or in between he shows up, laces 'em up, ask no questions and finds a way to be competitive. "If I could be like Mike." ROFL
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