Post by: srlunatic on April 14, 2008, 07:49:44 AM
So my question is....do we really need the PBA?
*this question may or may not reflect my views on the subject*
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When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, —
Post by: Locke on April 14, 2008, 03:53:05 PM
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Always be sincere, even when you don't mean it
Known Cell pimp
Post by: shelley on April 14, 2008, 03:54:33 PM
If we didn't have the PBA, what would you watch for 23 weeks on Sunday afternoons?
If we didn't have the PBA, how could I complain about the time that our local association meetings were scheduled?
SH
Post by: Jorge300 on April 14, 2008, 04:02:21 PM
Do we really need MLB?
Do we really need any place that showcases the best a particular sport has to offer.....the answer is NO. But do we want it, most definately, YES.
And we should have it, for those of us who have long ago dropped the dream of being a PBA superstar for the reality of a M-F 40hr workweek, supporting the wife and kid(s) at home, we get to watch those few who literally are the best of the best. I want to see them. I want to watch them bowl on tough conditions, against others who are just as good. I want to live my dream by siding with the rookie making his debut on National TV and hoping he shows up the others and wins. The problem is there are too few people like me. Johnny and Jdu house bowler don't care about watching the PBA, they aren't trying to get better, they never had a dream about being a PBA bowler. Somehow the PBA needs to find a way to connect to that bowler. They have brought in Rob Stone ( I hate the Hambone thing by the way) to bring some enthusiasm to the telecasts. But that isn't enough, and I'm not if there is a way to connect to the recreational bowlers. hopefully someone smarter then me can think up the magic answer, and soon.
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Jorge300
Post by: srlunatic on April 14, 2008, 04:04:04 PM
Well the people have voted and they want the NFL and the NBA but not really the PBA. The numbers and the lack of sponsorship may be telling us that.
Would the loss of the PBA really have much effect on bowling in general??
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When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, —
Post by: JoeBowler on April 14, 2008, 04:34:58 PM
I feel the same of the ladies tour why is the USBC pumping money into a program that failed. Sure it would be nice for the girls to have a tour to shoot for but it shouldnt be subsidsed.
We are bowlers and feel vested in the tours but we are but less than .01% of the population who cares if the PBA exists or not.
Post by: KennyRambo on April 14, 2008, 04:47:21 PM
Post by: mrgriswold on April 14, 2008, 04:56:57 PM
I see a parallel situation in my local house. Our center management now believes they can survive without leagues. They believe leagues are an unnecessary pain in the rear, that they can make more money with nothing but open bowling. Leagues might disappear altogether by next fall. If that happens, will they make it? Who knows. The average open bowler has probably never watched a PBA tournament and couldn't care less. If a center can thrive without leagues, then I'd say bowling can do the same without a PBA.
But I don't think either is true.
Post by: mrbowlingnut on April 14, 2008, 05:02:18 PM
I know i might get flamed but younger crowds need to get a clue about TV, for me PBA is still good TV.
Post by: dizzyfugu on April 14, 2008, 05:10:22 PM
In fact, I do not miss such an institution here in Europe - even though noone can make a living from bowling, hardly any athlete without a big sponsor can do at all.
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Post by: DON DRAPER on April 14, 2008, 10:01:41 PM
Post by: BrianCRX90 on April 14, 2008, 10:20:38 PM
quote:
The problem with the PBA is that it is an institution that uses bowling to make money. This is the focus, not the sport itself. The PBA might broadcast the sport, but it is IMHO not a good promotion for the sport in itself.
In fact, I do not miss such an institution here in Europe - even though noone can make a living from bowling, hardly any athlete without a big sponsor can do at all.
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DizzyFugu (http://"http://www.putfile.com/dizzyfugu/") - Reporting from Germany
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Secrets revealed: What's a fugu? (http://"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fugu")
No offense but did you realize what you just said? With that nonsense logic then no professional athletes from any sport should make money. And how utterly ridiculous you say that after this season when the PBA cut prize funds in half. Bowling should be about money, titles, then promotion. In that order. Ask anyone that has ever been on tour and that is reality!
Post by: nd300 on April 14, 2008, 10:43:27 PM
2.Major television coverage is going to be impossible unless a major sponsor does step up to the plate.None of the major players in cable will replace the pro or college sports on the weekends with bowling.Too much megabucks involved all around.So how do we tell ESPN to move bowling to a more advantageous time slot against thew NFL,NBA,or MLB????
3.Why not have the ball companies franchise themselves out and compete to sign the best current and new talent available???Then set up competiton of some sort.How you would categorize players is something I haven't thought of yet as this is a knee jerk reaction to the original posting.
Maybe something along the lines of Brunswick Europe against Brunswick Japan,or Storm U.S.A. against Storm Australia...........
To quote Jack Nicholson:
"I'm just spitballing here"....................
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Chris
JTTDB---Just Throw The Damn Ball
Don't "think"---that ball isn't in your bag yet..........
Post by: jd1319 on April 15, 2008, 07:34:26 AM
The PBA is nice because it is a showcase for the elite, but it doesn't encourage anybody to bowl who doesn't already bowl. People like to bowl because it's fun, and most people would rather go bowling themselves and have real fun than watch it on TV. A hell of a lot more people go bowling on sunday afternoons that watch the PBA.
Post by: no300tj on April 15, 2008, 08:06:46 AM
Post by: Krakken on April 15, 2008, 10:27:05 AM
I have had some of the same centers around here talk about no more leagues, they say bigger pain than they are worth.
Maybe the PBA should do what a lot of companies are doing right now, and look at ways to lower their overhead costs so they can pour more money into the prize funds?
Post by: Phillip Marlowe on April 15, 2008, 11:16:06 AM
quote:
It might become moot unless they get better sponsorship.
I see a parallel situation in my local house. Our center management now believes they can survive without leagues. They believe leagues are an unnecessary pain in the rear, that they can make more money with nothing but open bowling. Leagues might disappear altogether by next fall. If that happens, will they make it? Who knows. The average open bowler has probably never watched a PBA tournament and couldn't care less. If a center can thrive without leagues, then I'd say bowling can do the same without a PBA.
But I don't think either is true.
Your center is in for a rather rude awakening. Most centers, unless they have a great location and tremendous walk in traffic, find that gross profits decline as they eliminate league while per unit profits go up. That means that they make more money on a bowler by bowler basis, but less total money. In most cases, this leads to more or less dramatic cutbacks in hours and staffing, leading to poorer service, reducing the "event" traffic and further reducing overall profitability. It is an accountant's view of the world -- and with the subprime crisis, you can see where that gets you.
As to the PBA, it is dying. It has better numbers than hockey, but can't sell itself. It will be gone very soon. And it will hurt the game.
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"Now lets see you do something really tough. Like getting up."
Post by: Krakken on April 15, 2008, 12:50:41 PM
quote:quote:
It might become moot unless they get better sponsorship.
I see a parallel situation in my local house. Our center management now believes they can survive without leagues. They believe leagues are an unnecessary pain in the rear, that they can make more money with nothing but open bowling. Leagues might disappear altogether by next fall. If that happens, will they make it? Who knows. The average open bowler has probably never watched a PBA tournament and couldn't care less. If a center can thrive without leagues, then I'd say bowling can do the same without a PBA.
But I don't think either is true.
Your center is in for a rather rude awakening. Most centers, unless they have a great location and tremendous walk in traffic, find that gross profits decline as they eliminate league while per unit profits go up. That means that they make more money on a bowler by bowler basis, but less total money. In most cases, this leads to more or less dramatic cutbacks in hours and staffing, leading to poorer service, reducing the "event" traffic and further reducing overall profitability. It is an accountant's view of the world -- and with the subprime crisis, you can see where that gets you.
As to the PBA, it is dying. It has better numbers than hockey, but can't sell itself. It will be gone very soon. And it will hurt the game.
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"Now lets see you do something really tough. Like getting up."
Very well said, but I think the centers will do just that, they will cut the hours and the staff. Oil macines won't be needed as much, can be open 3pm-9pm weekdays, and weekends all day.
I don't think there would be a profit either, but I think a few will try.
Post by: chitown on April 15, 2008, 04:35:35 PM
quote:
Jorge,
Well the people have voted and they want the NFL and the NBA but not really the PBA. The numbers and the lack of sponsorship may be telling us that.
Would the loss of the PBA really have much effect on bowling in general??
--------------------
When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, —
I feel that it would effect bowling in the USA! The opposite holds true as well. If the PBA had big payouts each tourney then the interest in the sport would increase. I also feel sponsorship dollars would increase if the payouts were bigger.
Bowling used to be huge back in the 70's and 80's.
Edited on 4/15/2008 4:36 PM
Post by: Spider Ball Bowler on April 15, 2008, 04:58:38 PM
The PBA is trying...and I am pretty sure that everything brought up in the post to help, has already been thought of by the powers that be.
Bowling is never going to be Baseball, or Basketball, or Football, or Golf...so to compare them is comparing Pizza to a Lawn Chair....
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Ahhh Disco Biscuits!
Post by: Jmiller88 on April 16, 2008, 05:16:09 PM
Post by: Gazoo on April 17, 2008, 08:50:34 AM
quote:
while we may or may not need the pba the bowling world does need an elite level for elite players.
PBA - Yes
National Tour - NO
Eventually the "elite level for elite players" will be at the regional level and where up and comers will still strive to get to and compete against the best. I'm afraid the the National Tour will go the way of the ladies tour and only have a couple of mega events each year.
Edited on 4/17/2008 8:52 AM
Post by: DOconTEX on April 17, 2008, 02:43:33 PM
quote:
Very well said, but I think the centers will do just that, they will cut the hours and the staff. Oil macines won't be needed as much, can be open 3pm-9pm weekdays, and weekends all day.
I don't think there would be a profit either, but I think a few will try.
I experienced this a year or so ago. Friend asked me to help him with his game so we went after work one Friday. An AMF "FunFest" now known as 300 Bowl. There are a number of these in the DFW area, also operating as Main Event Bowling.
It has games, pool, finger food restaurant and is set up for catered parties, like corporate outings. Several outings were going on at the time. In a private room with 8 lanes that is available for parties, there were videos playing, loud music and lots of young (teen, college age) kids.
I was accommodating my friend, so we got a lane in the party room. The kids were all using 8 to 12 pound house balls "glow balls". I used my Blue Dot spare ball. Ball hooked off the lane. There was NO oil. Kids didn't care, videos were great, lots of flashing lights, music was loud.
I am afraid that is the future of bowling.
Post by: myrddin97 on April 17, 2008, 03:31:27 PM
quote:
I experienced this a year or so ago. Friend asked me to help him with his game so we went after work one Friday. An AMF "FunFest" now known as 300 Bowl. There are a number of these in the DFW area, also operating as Main Event Bowling.
It has games, pool, finger food restaurant and is set up for catered parties, like corporate outings. Several outings were going on at the time. In a private room with 8 lanes that is available for parties, there were videos playing, loud music and lots of young (teen, college age) kids.
I was accommodating my friend, so we got a lane in the party room. The kids were all using 8 to 12 pound house balls "glow balls". I used my Blue Dot spare ball. Ball hooked off the lane. There was NO oil. Kids didn't care, videos were great, lots of flashing lights, music was loud.
I am afraid that is the future of bowling.
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To err is human--and to blame it on a computer is even more so.
- Robert Orben
Post by: Monster Pike on April 17, 2008, 03:56:44 PM
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"The last time I saw a face like that, it had a hook in it's mouth." Rodney Dangerfield
Post by: Phillip Marlowe on April 18, 2008, 10:55:56 AM
quote:
A brand New Brunswick XL just opened up about 10 miles from my house. The back half is 20 lanes on one side for party's & cosmic bowling. 18 on the other side for open bowling. The open bowling has couches for seating. The party side has the regular type seating. The front half has a huge game room & a laser tag room with a small prize store from the coupons won during the games. On the other side are the rooms for presents & cake for the party's & a small cafe. The front has a pretty decent size bar w/a huge screen tv. Bowling there is expensive & looks to be catering to the cosmic & open bowling type customers. Now things could change if they don't think it will work. But from what I saw on Saturday when my daughter attended a party there, the place was packed at least for bowling & partys. There isn't even a pro shop there.
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"The last time I saw a face like that, it had a hook in it's mouth." Rodney Dangerfield
There are a number of places like this across the country. Generally they have good runs for about 3-5 years and then the business slows perceptibly. They begin to lose money and a large percentage absolutely leak cash, even though the accountants say they are doing well on a per unit basis. Places like this all over the country exist. Few survive over more than one full business cycle. But the owners/managers see higher per unit profits and think "wow"...except there is now more competition for "events" than ever and more places have decided to compete for that business.
Put a Chuck E. Cheese or D&P in the area. Bye bye business.
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"I have come to the conclusion that one useless man is a disgrace, two or more can be called a law firm, and three or more can be called CONGRESS."
Post by: stormfanken on April 18, 2008, 11:19:03 AM
quote:
Too many options on how to spend your money these days for bowling to survive much longer.
I have had some of the same centers around here talk about no more leagues, they say bigger pain than they are worth.
Maybe the PBA should do what a lot of companies are doing right now, and look at ways to lower their overhead costs so they can pour more money into the prize funds?
Post by: stormfanken on April 18, 2008, 11:22:36 AM
quote:
I'm willing to bet there will be more and more establishments like that because there is a market for it. But I think it's a limited market. There use to be a place about 20-25 minutes from St Louis that tried that. No leagues and I think I remember they had a jewelery store rather than a pro shop. It was in a very high traffic area, but still failed to stay open. As I briefly understand it, the ownership had other issues, but still . . . . Bowling centers are going to have to cater more than just the "traditional bowler" to survive, but that doesn't mean the successful ones will ignore them (us) completely. It will probably be a balance between the traditional and open bowler that will be different for almost every center based on their location and the makeup of surrounding population.quote:
I experienced this a year or so ago. Friend asked me to help him with his game so we went after work one Friday. An AMF "FunFest" now known as 300 Bowl. There are a number of these in the DFW area, also operating as Main Event Bowling.
It has games, pool, finger food restaurant and is set up for catered parties, like corporate outings. Several outings were going on at the time. In a private room with 8 lanes that is available for parties, there were videos playing, loud music and lots of young (teen, college age) kids.
I was accommodating my friend, so we got a lane in the party room. The kids were all using 8 to 12 pound house balls "glow balls". I used my Blue Dot spare ball. Ball hooked off the lane. There was NO oil. Kids didn't care, videos were great, lots of flashing lights, music was loud.
I am afraid that is the future of bowling.
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To err is human--and to blame it on a computer is even more so.
- Robert Orben
Post by: CoachJim on April 18, 2008, 11:58:54 AM
Not to mention, that back in the day there weren't any coaches out there and the only way I had to improve my game was watching those that knew how to bowl on TV and copy them as best I could.
Post by: myrddin97 on April 18, 2008, 02:28:49 PM
quote:
I am from the St. Louis area also. Are you referring to the place in O'Fallon IL that I believe was named Fat Cats ?? That is a shame that place didnt make it. It was a beautiful center. The same with the place called Lucky Strike lanes that was in the St. Louis Mills shopping Center. (Not the old Lucky Strike in Hazelwood that was open for years.) Wasnt that only open about a year?
Yeah, I was talking about Fat Cats, and I think at some point Cat City, though I may be making that up. The problem with Fat Cats I think had a lot to do with the owner. When you don't have a pair enough to fire a guy in person and have to do it over the phone (a friend of mine who's been in the buisness 20+ years and owned a fairly successful center for the majority of that time) you're probably going to have other issues. I think the owner came from a tech background and was good and successful at that and decided to try to open a bowling center. I think he even designed the scoring system himself. I'm not sure, but I think the building may still be there with all the equipment and lanes, but the land is so valuable and the building/equipment probably needs so much work, it would be espically hard to get it in order at a decent price.
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To err is human--and to blame it on a computer is even more so.
- Robert Orben
Post by: stormfanken on April 18, 2008, 03:04:57 PM
quote:quote:
I am from the St. Louis area also. Are you referring to the place in O'Fallon IL that I believe was named Fat Cats ?? That is a shame that place didnt make it. It was a beautiful center. The same with the place called Lucky Strike lanes that was in the St. Louis Mills shopping Center. (Not the old Lucky Strike in Hazelwood that was open for years.) Wasnt that only open about a year?
Yeah, I was talking about Fat Cats, and I think at some point Cat City, though I may be making that up. The problem with Fat Cats I think had a lot to do with the owner. When you don't have a pair enough to fire a guy in person and have to do it over the phone (a friend of mine who's been in the buisness 20+ years and owned a fairly successful center for the majority of that time) you're probably going to have other issues. I think the owner came from a tech background and was good and successful at that and decided to try to open a bowling center. I think he even designed the scoring system himself. I'm not sure, but I think the building may still be there with all the equipment and lanes, but the land is so valuable and the building/equipment probably needs so much work, it would be espically hard to get it in order at a decent price.
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To err is human--and to blame it on a computer is even more so.
- Robert Orben
Post by: Krakken on April 18, 2008, 03:31:40 PM
quote:
I work in a bowling alley here in the st louis area and have to say that we would go out of business without the leagues. How have leagues become a bigger pain than they are worth. They are guaranteed weekly income.quote:
Too many options on how to spend your money these days for bowling to survive much longer.
I have had some of the same centers around here talk about no more leagues, they say bigger pain than they are worth.
Maybe the PBA should do what a lot of companies are doing right now, and look at ways to lower their overhead costs so they can pour more money into the prize funds?
Because league lineage fees are generally much lower than open play, and league bowlers typically do not spend as much on drinks and food as open play bowlers. The revenue is there, just not as much as they would get from half of the open play bowlers. In the early 1990's I was paying between $15-$20 per league for the fees. I am still paying that much now almost 20 years later. Why? because leagues try to keep the costs down, so the centers aren't making nearly as much. They raise the fees, and more bowlers would leave. Tell me one thing that you paid for in 1990 that is the same price today?
Then there are the guys in the league that always complain about the shot that is laid out, too easy, too hard, block for the lefties, block for the righties.
The house I bowl in doesn't make much at all from the leagues, and with that many folks bowling in the house, they have to have more staff working than they do with open play.