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Author Topic: International PBA Titles Devalue National Title  (Read 6626 times)

Wilbert

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International PBA Titles Devalue National Title
« on: October 27, 2012, 08:07:09 PM »
The PBA is giving out national titles (as compared to a regional titles) in some  international events.  I think they devalue the national title. I think fields are not strong enought to warrant a national title.  There are regional events with stronger fields.

Chris Barnes won an Internatilonal National Title in Vienna.  There were a handfull of touring players in the event.  Also women received handicap against the men in the event.

Belmonte won an International National Title in Australia.  The only other touring player there was Rash.

 

jonesybaseball

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Re: International PBA Titles Devalue National Title
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2012, 01:46:47 AM »
I understand where you are coming from when you say this, but regardless of how many national touring players they have at the tournament, these are still very hard tournaments to win. Now obviously each WBT event will attract more or less pba stars at times but that happens sometimes. When Barnes won the Vienna open, here is the list of big name bowlers he competed against. Stuart Williams, Tommy Jones, Dan Maclelland, Liz Johnson, Sean Rash, Chris Barnes, Mika, Missy Parkin, Kelly Kulick, Osku Palermaa, Andres Gomez, Dino Castillo, Lynda Barnes, Scott Norton, and Paul Moor. Thats 15 of the worlds best bowlers at this tournament out of 302 i believe it was. Now the other 287 arent all chumps now or they wouldnt have forked out money to bowl in this big event, but after looking at the sheet about 100 of them didnt average 200 or better and pretty much just donated their money. I think the proper thing to do with the pba titles is have a rule where a set amount of pba pro's men or women have to be there. granted that number could be 30 or that number could be 60. Either way something needs to happen with this

Wilbert

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Re: International PBA Titles Devalue National Title
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2012, 03:14:29 AM »
I understand where you are coming from when you say this, but regardless of how many national touring players they have at the tournament, these are still very hard tournaments to win. Now obviously each WBT event will attract more or less pba stars at times but that happens sometimes. When Barnes won the Vienna open, here is the list of big name bowlers he competed against. Stuart Williams, Tommy Jones, Dan Maclelland, Liz Johnson, Sean Rash, Chris Barnes, Mika, Missy Parkin, Kelly Kulick, Osku Palermaa, Andres Gomez, Dino Castillo, Lynda Barnes, Scott Norton, and Paul Moor. Thats 15 of the worlds best bowlers at this tournament out of 302 i believe it was. Now the other 287 arent all chumps now or they wouldnt have forked out money to bowl in this big event, but after looking at the sheet about 100 of them didnt average 200 or better and pretty much just donated their money. I think the proper thing to do with the pba titles is have a rule where a set amount of pba pro's men or women have to be there. granted that number could be 30 or that number could be 60. Either way something needs to happen with this
[/quote

In Vienna, the tour players grabbed the top spots. The rest of the field was playing for a check.  To me, it does not indicate the rest of the field was strong enough to compete at the PBA national level. I think the field at the at the Luci Bonneau Tournament was just as strong as Vienna and they awarded a regional title at the Luci.  see results:

 http://www.carolnormansproshop.com/default.aspx?name=LuciBonneauResults2012

I think there were a number of ladies in Vienna because of the handicap given against the men would increase their chances for a national title.   However, as it turned out it did not make a difference.

I could agree giving a national title with 30 touring players in the field.  Touring players would be those out there every week.  The reasoning is that touring players are usually be the top players bowling for a living.  This is compared to regional players who bowl a nationnal tournament on an infrequent basis. The PBA already separates national and regionnal titles to recognize the difficulty of national titles.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2012, 03:43:17 AM by Wilbert »

Wilbert

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Re: International PBA Titles Devalue National Title
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2012, 03:51:00 AM »
There was one international tournament that maybe worth a national title. That was in Korea. Top prize was US$44,000 and US$22,000 for second.  The US representatives were Mike Fagan, Bill O’Neil, Ronnie Russell, Smallwood, Mike Wolfe, and Josh Blanchard.  The final results showed top 19 places going to asian bowlers of which 16 were Korean. Fagan 20th, Russell 22nd, Smallwood 41st, O’Neil 54th, Wolfe 64th and Josh 96th.  To me, this indicates a tough field.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2012, 04:01:07 AM by Wilbert »

Jorge300

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Re: International PBA Titles Devalue National Title
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2012, 11:01:02 AM »
I know I am late the party with this.....but this whole thread deserves a big....C'mon Man!!
 
Do you realize the caliber of international bowlers out there? Before they were on the PBA, you had the likes of Belmonte, Stuart Williams, Dom Barrett, etc competing in these tournaments. You still have the likes of Paul Moor, who is one of the best bowlers in the world (and not a member of the PBA as far as I know) competing in these type of tournaments. There are many very very good Asian bowlers out there. Even if the entire field is not PBA caliber bowlers, winning a tournament against 300 other bowlers is a significant task. Winning one of these International PBA titles is just as hard, if not harder than winning a standard PBA tour event. To cast slight on these is ignorant at best.
Jorge300

ImBackInTheGame

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Re: International PBA Titles Devalue National Title
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2012, 11:20:26 AM »
There should still be a separation between WBT and PBA titles.

kidlost2000

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Re: International PBA Titles Devalue National Title
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2012, 09:14:38 PM »
If there is handicap given I would say it is no longer a "PBA" event.
…… you can't  add a physics term to a bowling term and expect it to mean something.

Wilbert

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Re: International PBA Titles Devalue National Title
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2012, 10:07:10 PM »
I do follow international bowling.  There may be a small number of bowlers that can compete at the US national level.  They are mention above Belmo, Osku, Stu, Dom.  There may be a number of players equal to good regional players.

In most of asia there is no one to compete against the US pros at the national level.  The unkown factor is Japan and Korea because their top bowlers almost never leave their own country.   When US Pros come to asia they win sometimes.  When they have not won they have been stopped from by the Koreans.  In 2011, Wu Siu Hong-Asian, European and Australian champion went to the WSOB.  He bowl well, but did make the second round in any of the events.  He would probably be a good regional player.

In Europe, the touring players seem to win every event they decide to show.  Vienna had a field of 300 entries, but the handful of touring players took all the top spots.  To me this indicates the rest of the field is not strong enough to compete at the level of touring players.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2012, 04:06:54 PM by Wilbert »

Urethane Game

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Re: International PBA Titles Devalue National Title
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2012, 08:00:53 AM »
I think the PBA is going in the right direction with the association with WBT.  I disagree that this devalues a national title. 

Here are two things that do devalue a national title:

Low prize funds that limit participation of good and potentially great US players in national events because anyone with a halfway decent job would be insane to give up a good job for a shot at the tour.  Had Smallwood not have been laid off, it is unlikely he would have given the tour a shot.

What really devalues a PBA title, would be for the PBA to fold.  Then what is a national title really worth?

Consider the above items and then hope the association with the WBT can ultimately restore the prestige of Pro Bowling and grow prize funds where US players considering a career as a bowler have a pursuit worth the risk of losing a steady job at home.

Wilbert

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Re: International PBA Titles Devalue National Title
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2012, 03:58:34 PM »
I think the PBA is going in the right direction with the association with WBT.  I disagree that this devalues a national title. 

Here are two things that do devalue a national title:

Low prize funds that limit participation of good and potentially great US players in national events because anyone with a halfway decent job would be insane to give up a good job for a shot at the tour.  Had Smallwood not have been laid off, it is unlikely he would have given the tour a shot.

What really devalues a PBA title, would be for the PBA to fold.  Then what is a national title really worth?

Consider the above items and then hope the association with the WBT can ultimately restore the prestige of Pro Bowling and grow prize funds where US players considering a career as a bowler have a pursuit worth the risk of losing a steady job at home.

I agree the association with the WTBA in itself does not devalue the title.

I agree that low prize funds limit participation of good players, but that problem has been around for years.

I have mixed feelings of folding the PBA or giving titles away to keep it alive.

I feel if a national title is given anywhere in world the field must be strong enough to compare with an event in the US.  With that said, number of entries does not equal to the strength of the field.  If a handful of touring pros show at an event and they take all the top spots the field is not strong enough to give them competition.  It is basicly giving a title to an event with a handful players.

Urethane Game

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Re: International PBA Titles Devalue National Title
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2012, 06:08:02 PM »
Wilbert,

I don't know how old you are but another example of a watered down PBA field would be the summer tour.  Not all guys were out for all events.  For that matter, many top players skipped winter events as well. 

Wilbert

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Re: International PBA Titles Devalue National Title
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2012, 11:34:25 PM »
Mika pick up the latest international PBA title in the middle east.  A dozen touring players including serveral without  national titles.  The PBA bowlers took 5 of the top 7 spots.

The only consolation for me is that the winners of international titles that I know of have won in the US also.  International/national titles winners were:  Osku, Barnes, Belmonte and Mika

iamone78

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Re: International PBA Titles Devalue National Title
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2012, 10:51:36 PM »
I just wanted to add my comments to this thread. If you have never had the opportunity to bowl any international events specifically in Europe, I encourage anyone to do it. It is probably one of the best opportunities to bowl with international players from a number of countries. The field includes PBA stars as well. I have had the chance to bowl in several of these events while I was in Germany. Even before the PBA partnered with the WTBA, PBA stars had bowled these. They are sponsored by all of the major ball manufactures as well. There is quite a big field because it draws a lot of amateur bowlers and the money is pretty good too. They usually start on a Saturday or Sunday with the finals the following Sunday. You can enter as many times as there are open spots, but only make the cut with the highest 6 game set. It is very competitive as every European country enters their national team for both men and women. These are the same people that are competing on an international level against our Team USA. The shots are made by Kegal and can be downloaded from their site if you are ever interested in putting them out at your house. Also, the reason for the handicap for the women is because its a WTBA rule if I am not mistaken (please don't quote me on that). I will guarantee you that most of the women bowlers that receive it, probably do not need it to make the cut or win match play. Yes there are lots of average joe's out there, and some do well enough to make the cut. By far the majority of the bowlers that make the cut are definitely better than the average house hacks and could easily compete and do well on the regional tour and some are quite good enough to compete in PBA events. If the PBA was open to nonmembers, yes there will be huge turn outs. Realize, Osku, Belmonte, Dom Barrett, Stuart Williams, Martin Larsen, Mika, Paul Moore, Tim Mack, just to name a few, competed before the PBA and still do. I say keep an open mind until you have had the chance to bowl any of these. If you are interested, see www.bowlingdigital.com and www.etbf.eu and take a look at the results. The cuts can be brutal at some of these. I could go on and on, but I think that is a good amount of info. Thanks for reading my post.
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avabob

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Re: International PBA Titles Devalue National Title
« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2012, 04:04:55 PM »
What devalued national PBA titles was the paltry prize fund and inability to even have a city to city tour.  International tourneys are filling a void that wouldnt exist with a viable national tour.