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Author Topic: Name a Pro Bowler that would.....  (Read 8466 times)

strikecing

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Name a Pro Bowler that would.....
« on: May 22, 2009, 01:50:50 PM »
in your opnion not be where they are at with out all the great technology that we have now.  Say that All we had these days were platic balls with pancake cores.  What pro bowler would not be where they are today??  Just for fun not trying to take anything away from those guys cause they are great.
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BrianCRX90

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Re: Name a Pro Bowler that would.....
« Reply #46 on: May 27, 2009, 08:35:58 PM »
quote:
Del Ballard Jr.


Are you not informed or trying to be funny? Ballard fell off the map after reactive balls came out. After he won the 2nd open he tried using reactives and pretty much had to and never was the same bowler. You should have realized that since he hasn't been on tour in years and hasn't won a title since 1993.

Edited on 5/27/2009 8:36 PM

AdrianS

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Re: Name a Pro Bowler that would.....
« Reply #47 on: June 03, 2009, 09:18:35 PM »
Ballard might have been bowler of the 90's if resin hadnt showed up
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JD74

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Re: Name a Pro Bowler that would.....
« Reply #48 on: June 04, 2009, 12:16:57 PM »
Walter Ray, cant make the ball turn over without high powered equipment.
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Crankenstein300

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Re: Name a Pro Bowler that would.....
« Reply #49 on: June 04, 2009, 12:35:29 PM »
You guys do realize that WRW still outrevs half of you guys here, right? Not everyone has 400rpms like the majority seem to think they have.

DP3

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Re: Name a Pro Bowler that would.....
« Reply #50 on: June 04, 2009, 12:42:48 PM »
quote:
You guys do realize that WRW still outrevs half of you guys here, right? Not everyone has 400rpms like the majority seem to think they have.


You are wrong and everyone else is right.

JessN16

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Re: Name a Pro Bowler that would.....
« Reply #51 on: June 04, 2009, 01:16:59 PM »
quote:
quote:
Walter Ray and Duke.  The majority of their titles have come during the resin era.  Before then they were the kings of plaque 10s.
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Duke won his first title at 18 with urethane if I remember correctly.  Youngest EVER to win a title.  Yeah, he wouldn't be anything...

Sorry forgot to add that anyone who said Barnes is just, as dp said early, retarded.  So you honestly think a guy who has 500+ revs, and always attempts to play the lanes about as straight as Walter Ray "benefits" from the technology?  If anything is has hurt him more often than helped him.  Because guess what, all the high 4-pins that he leaves on TV would be trip 4-pins with slightly less equipment.  But hey you have your own absolutely clueless opinion probably because of the simple fact that you personally just don't like him.  

And for the person that compared Scroggins with Earl Anthony, I mean come on....seriously.... That is just utterly amazing.


My vote goes to Jeff Carter

Edited on 5/27/2009 4:11 PM


The guy who just won the Plastic Ball Championship?

Jess

NoseofRI

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Re: Name a Pro Bowler that would.....
« Reply #52 on: June 04, 2009, 04:18:23 PM »
quote:
quote:
quote:
Walter Ray and Duke.  The majority of their titles have come during the resin era.  Before then they were the kings of plaque 10s.
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Duke won his first title at 18 with urethane if I remember correctly.  Youngest EVER to win a title.  Yeah, he wouldn't be anything...

Sorry forgot to add that anyone who said Barnes is just, as dp said early, retarded.  So you honestly think a guy who has 500+ revs, and always attempts to play the lanes about as straight as Walter Ray "benefits" from the technology?  If anything is has hurt him more often than helped him.  Because guess what, all the high 4-pins that he leaves on TV would be trip 4-pins with slightly less equipment.  But hey you have your own absolutely clueless opinion probably because of the simple fact that you personally just don't like him.  

And for the person that compared Scroggins with Earl Anthony, I mean come on....seriously.... That is just utterly amazing.

My vote goes to Jeff Carter



The guy who just won the Plastic Ball Championship?

Jess


Well if I must take the time to explain this too you then its clear you don't have a lot of bowling knowledge.  First I'll start by saying what are you two things Carter has excelled on? 1. THS 2. 21st Century Plastic Ball tournament
He's not accurate and the plastic ball tournament clearly aided his inaccurracy far greater than other tournaments as it landed perfectly in his wheelhouse of Grip, Grab, Power Spray, and Carry A game.  The fact is guys like Anthony, Weber (father AND son), Don Carter, WRW, Duke have one part of their game that is lightyears better than Jeff Carter and that is ACCURACY.  

Seeing as how you are arguing this point, I'd like to hear your reasoning as why Jeff Carter is JUST NOW making it to tour whens he's only a couple years behnid Duke and Weber in age?

Edited on 6/4/2009 4:21 PM

Nails

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Re: Name a Pro Bowler that would.....
« Reply #53 on: June 04, 2009, 04:52:09 PM »
quote:
The guy who just won the Plastic Ball Championship?

Jess

Well if I must take the time to explain this too you then its clear you don't have a lot of bowling knowledge.  First I'll start by saying what are you two things Carter has excelled on? 1. THS 2. 21st Century Plastic Ball tournament
He's not accurate and the plastic ball tournament clearly aided his inaccurracy far greater than other tournaments as it landed perfectly in his wheelhouse of Grip, Grab, Power Spray, and Carry A game.  The fact is guys like Anthony, Weber (father AND son), Don Carter, WRW, Duke have one part of their game that is lightyears better than Jeff Carter and that is ACCURACY.  

Seeing as how you are arguing this point, I'd like to hear your reasoning as why Jeff Carter is JUST NOW making it to tour whens he's only a couple years behnid Duke and Weber in age?

Edited on 6/4/2009 4:21 PM


Wow, Jess gets unloaded on just because he made the comment that Jeff won the plastic ball championship?  No where did he say that he was better than the Hall of Famers you mentioned.  Also, not to defend Jeff, but he's only been on the tour for a few years, not 25 or so like Duke and Weber.  Who knows why Jeff didn't pursue it earlier.  Talent, money, travel, family...
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NoseofRI

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Re: Name a Pro Bowler that would.....
« Reply #54 on: June 04, 2009, 05:06:03 PM »
quote:

Wow, Jess gets unloaded on just because he made the comment that Jeff won the plastic ball championship?  No where did he say that he was better than the Hall of Famers you mentioned.  Also, not to defend Jeff, but he's only been on the tour for a few years, not 25 or so like Duke and Weber.  Who knows why Jeff didn't pursue it earlier.  Talent, money, travel, family...
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Telling it like it is.


You must have always received a "poor" on your report cards for Comprehension and Reading skills.  Because first of all this topic asked "what pro would NOT be where they are with out all the great technology"  Summary: I answered question asked with Jeff Carter, JessN thought to question my response because Carter won the "plastic ball tournament", I responded and explained my stance on my pick, you come in after calling everyone out in another thread for so called "trolling" and "hypocriticalness" <--not a word but I'm making it one for my statement, yet don't argue my point, or offer a rebutle, or debate what I said at all, I now respond to you and explain the small and one sided debate between JessN and myself.  Didn't realize you were the official "I'm Calling-You-Out Guy" of BR.

pate08

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Re: Name a Pro Bowler that would.....
« Reply #55 on: June 04, 2009, 05:07:47 PM »
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
Walter Ray and Duke.  The majority of their titles have come during the resin era.  Before then they were the kings of plaque 10s.
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Duke won his first title at 18 with urethane if I remember correctly.  Youngest EVER to win a title.  Yeah, he wouldn't be anything...

Sorry forgot to add that anyone who said Barnes is just, as dp said early, retarded.  So you honestly think a guy who has 500+ revs, and always attempts to play the lanes about as straight as Walter Ray "benefits" from the technology?  If anything is has hurt him more often than helped him.  Because guess what, all the high 4-pins that he leaves on TV would be trip 4-pins with slightly less equipment.  But hey you have your own absolutely clueless opinion probably because of the simple fact that you personally just don't like him.  

And for the person that compared Scroggins with Earl Anthony, I mean come on....seriously.... That is just utterly amazing.

My vote goes to Jeff Carter



The guy who just won the Plastic Ball Championship?

Jess


Well if I must take the time to explain this too you then its clear you don't have a lot of bowling knowledge.  First I'll start by saying what are you two things Carter has excelled on? 1. THS 2. 21st Century Plastic Ball tournament
He's not accurate and the plastic ball tournament clearly aided his inaccurracy far greater than other tournaments as it landed perfectly in his wheelhouse of Grip, Grab, Power Spray, and Carry A game.  The fact is guys like Anthony, Weber (father AND son), Don Carter, WRW, Duke have one part of their game that is lightyears better than Jeff Carter and that is ACCURACY.  

Seeing as how you are arguing this point, I'd like to hear your reasoning as why Jeff Carter is JUST NOW making it to tour whens he's only a couple years behnid Duke and Weber in age?

Edited on 6/4/2009 4:21 PM



He's not accurate, yet he made the telecast at the US Open 2 years ago?

I made a comment a while ago that I deleted but I am going to have to restate it. Most of the people here have absolutely no idea what they are talking about, but they think they do. If you want an answer that actually has some weight behind it, go ask someone on tour or a tour rep or someone like that. They are around the PBA and have been for a long time, and they actually know what they are talking about.
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JessN16

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Re: Name a Pro Bowler that would.....
« Reply #56 on: June 04, 2009, 05:17:22 PM »
quote:

Well if I must take the time to explain this too you then its clear you don't have a lot of bowling knowledge.  First I'll start by saying what are you two things Carter has excelled on? 1. THS 2. 21st Century Plastic Ball tournament
He's not accurate and the plastic ball tournament clearly aided his inaccurracy far greater than other tournaments as it landed perfectly in his wheelhouse of Grip, Grab, Power Spray, and Carry A game.  The fact is guys like Anthony, Weber (father AND son), Don Carter, WRW, Duke have one part of their game that is lightyears better than Jeff Carter and that is ACCURACY.  

Seeing as how you are arguing this point, I'd like to hear your reasoning as why Jeff Carter is JUST NOW making it to tour whens he's only a couple years behnid Duke and Weber in age?

Edited on 6/4/2009 4:21 PM


How is any of that relevant? Bad argument all around.

1) I'm not saying Jeff Carter is better than any of the other bowlers you mentioned,
2) None of the rest of it is relevant to the fact that he won the Plastic Ball Championship.

The sentence that really makes me pause is this one: "He's not accurate and the plastic ball tournament clearly aided his inaccurracy far greater than other tournaments"

I've been bowling since the days of plastic and I've never seen any kind of plastic format "aid inaccuracy" in any form or fashion. If you go ask the old guys on PBA.com what they hate about the resin era, they'll tell you one of the things they don't like about resin is the amount of miss room it affords people -- i.e., spray it at a breakpoint zone and watch it hook.

I may not be a bowling encyclopedia, but I have enough knowledge to know that if you bowl a plastic format and you're spraying the ball, you're not going to last. And too often -- both on this forum when talking about league bowlers, and in discussions of high-rev guys in general -- there is a tendency to label any cranker as a "sprayer." It's like there's some unwritten rule that a guy can't rev the ball and hit a mark at the same time.

That should have become abundantly clear last year during Belmonte's win, where he was throwing plastic on one lane and had a target of about a half-inch he could hit and count on striking.

Maybe Jeff got lucky one week, but the fact remains he won the tournament, and guys like Duke, Walter Ray, etc., didn't just automatically go to the top because they're more accurate than a sniper rifle.

For us to know how well he -- or anyone -- would do in weekly plastic formats, we'd have to revert to plastic on a regular basis. Well, Jeff is younger than me (I think) and I came up just in the very end of the real plastic era and heyday of the urethane era, so I'm not sure we have any of his pre-resin exploits to check.

I just thought it was a little odd to name the one guy in the field who actually won the tournament as the guy who would struggle. Besides, if a 21st Century plastic tournament aids high-rev sprayers, and it aided Jeff to his win, by your own words it's proof that he wouldn't struggle.

My answer to the original question is that probably all the guys who are currently exempt have the talent to succeed regardless of the format.

Jess

NoseofRI

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Re: Name a Pro Bowler that would.....
« Reply #57 on: June 04, 2009, 06:04:49 PM »
Actually JessN it is a very viable argument.  Did you pay attention at ALL to the plastic ball tournament?  Look at the top 8, I believe 7 were VERY HIGH Rev players and Pete Weber who's unique roll creates carry.  So High Rev + Plastic + a blended light volume shot = Less OVERREACTION from the bowling ball and greater carry no matter how you catch the pocket.  So in essence this plastic ball tournament did allow a certain type of guy more area, which my argument, going back, is that this was not as much the case in the older days without all the technology.  Being that I've seen and experienced this stuff first hand and also talked with many reps, staffers, and touring guys I CAN safely say that this type of condition/tournament/setup strictly favors someone with a game similar to Jeff's.
Also I used WRW and Duke and others as an example because so many others said that'd be nothing without technology, but comparing games its clear to someone with knowledge that those guys would be there no matter what, and in my opinion watching Jeff's game I'm not so sure he would.

strikealot

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Re: Name a Pro Bowler that would.....
« Reply #58 on: June 04, 2009, 06:14:17 PM »
quote:
Look at the top 8, I believe 7 were VERY HIGH Rev players and Pete Weber who's unique roll creates carry. So High Rev + Plastic + a blended light volume shot = Less OVERREACTION from the bowling ball and greater carry no matter how you catch the pocket. So in essence this plastic ball tournament did allow a certain type of guy more area, which my argument, going back, is that this was not as much the case in the older days without all the technology


agree 100%, the crankers created their room and hold..had more room to spray the ball, therefore the crankers did well in this tournament. accuracy FTL and revs and spray FTW
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JessN16

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Re: Name a Pro Bowler that would.....
« Reply #59 on: June 04, 2009, 06:23:00 PM »
quote:
Actually JessN it is a very viable argument.  Did you pay attention at ALL to the plastic ball tournament?  Look at the top 8, I believe 7 were VERY HIGH Rev players and Pete Weber who's unique roll creates carry.  So High Rev + Plastic + a blended light volume shot = Less OVERREACTION from the bowling ball and greater carry no matter how you catch the pocket.  So in essence this plastic ball tournament did allow a certain type of guy more area, which my argument, going back, is that this was not as much the case in the older days without all the technology.  Being that I've seen and experienced this stuff first hand and also talked with many reps, staffers, and touring guys I CAN safely say that this type of condition/tournament/setup strictly favors someone with a game similar to Jeff's.
Also I used WRW and Duke and others as an example because so many others said that'd be nothing without technology, but comparing games its clear to someone with knowledge that those guys would be there no matter what, and in my opinion watching Jeff's game I'm not so sure he would.


Here's the thing: Whether Jeff would or not has already been decided. He did.

The original question asked where the pros would be today with plastic balls and pancake cores. That is what was used in the Plastic Ball Championship. The only other pieces of technology used were an oil machine and a bunch of Abralon pads to alter surface.

So if the plastic environment -- as you claim -- benefited high-rev guys and (going off the last post) accuracy isn't a really big deal, then you can't at the same time say Jeff Carter would be hurt by it.

You are arguing two completely different points at the same time.
1) In one hand, you are saying that Jeff Carter would be hurt by a tech reversion, because he sprays it.
2) On the other hand, you are saying that guys who rev the ball up would succeed because plastic would mute overreaction downlane off mistakes in accuracy.

That's why the argument doesn't make any sense to me. The very guy who you claim struggles in (1) is described by (2).

As to the technology angle, what technology at the Plastic Ball Championship? The shells were polyester, the weight blocks were pancakes (the ball itself was an Ebonite Maxim) and the lane oil was reduced to the levels that were present back in the old days. Jeff Carter wasn't helped by technological advancements at the PBC ... no one was. Unless you consider Abralon to be a major step up from sandpaper.

And I can do without the "you must not know anything about bowling" digs. Uncalled for and inaccurate on top of that.

Jess

DP3

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Re: Name a Pro Bowler that would.....
« Reply #60 on: June 04, 2009, 11:15:11 PM »
NoseofRI nose his stuff.  

He's a very good regional player with alot of experience that nose what he's talking about.  Every argument he has made has been spot on.  It just seems like alot of people are having trouble separating personal emotions from fact and logical reasoning.