Post by: strikecing on May 22, 2009, 01:50:50 PM
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Raceway Lanes FOREVER!!! ROYAL PIN You ARE WHATS WRONG IN INDY!!!!
high score: 300 (1/10/07 Tropical Storm)
My Arsenal
Storm 2nd D pin over ring finger
Columbia300 Perfect Rival pin above the bridge
Storm Rapid Fire Pearl Pin above ring finger
Columbia Messenger Low RG stacked label
Brunswick Inferno Pin above Bridge
1 tropical storm pin down below the bridge
Post by: J_Mac on May 22, 2009, 09:55:38 PM
Post by: lsf_21 on May 22, 2009, 10:02:39 PM
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GO CUBS!!!!
GO CELTICS!!!!
Post by: ginro on May 22, 2009, 10:04:17 PM
Post by: FastTracker33 on May 22, 2009, 10:04:52 PM
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- Brian
http://BeansProShop.com
Post by: BrunsWolf on May 22, 2009, 10:23:26 PM
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Jared Wolf
Jonesboro, AR
www.bowlingchat.net
Post by: jnblues on May 22, 2009, 10:36:20 PM
Post by: jnblues on May 22, 2009, 10:38:13 PM
Post by: Randy T on May 22, 2009, 11:06:38 PM
And we watched those guys scuff the hell out that equipment before they used it
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Why do people keep trying to compare Lane #1 to other equipment.....when there really is no comparison
Best Prices in all of Colorado on Lane #1 equipment....
Post by: DukeHarding on May 22, 2009, 11:25:55 PM
The top guys would adapt...
Or go home.
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Duke Harding
"My choices early in life were either to be a piano player in a whore house or a politician. And to tell the truth, there's hardly any difference." -- Harry Truman
I've learned...That one should keep his words both soft and tender, because tomorrow he may have to eat them.
Post by: jorr19 on May 22, 2009, 11:29:16 PM
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Carry is not luck, it's physics.
In my bag... Rogue Cell, Cell Pearl, Widow Venom, Rapid Fire Pearl, Raw Hammer Psycho, Avalanche Slide, Rattler and Storm Paradigm.
Post by: spankdaddy300 on May 23, 2009, 12:47:44 AM
Post by: ginro on May 23, 2009, 12:56:08 AM
quote:
Mike Scroggins.
he will absolutely look like a league bowler lol
Post by: KDawg77 on May 23, 2009, 01:02:55 AM
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Ken
Post by: DP3 on May 23, 2009, 01:53:16 AM
quote:
Not to knock on these guys but I'd have to say Shafer, Fagan, and Rhino. Reason being that I don't know how their carry would fare with low tech covers and cores combined with their abnormal releases. Rhino especially seems to me like he'd have trouble getting a plastic ball into a pure roll
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Brunswick Advisory Staff
Jared Wolf
Jonesboro, AR
www.bowlingchat.net
Shafer and Fagan both went lights out in the plastic ball tournament. Fagan finished 4th, Shafer finished 11th. Ryan Shafer was collegiate bowling rookie of the year and PBA rookie of the year in the 80s. How many options were availible back then? Anyone that can sit back and name names with pure conviction of any exempt professional in this thread is completely retarded. Wholehearted truth. Why do people on this forum love to discredit exempt professionals any chance they get? Amazing.
Edited on 5/23/2009 1:54 AM
Post by: BrunsWolf on May 23, 2009, 02:19:35 AM
I'm not discrediting anyone. I'm only saying that I'm just unsure about the results based on releases. Would they beat me, of course! Am I better than any of them, of course not! I also realize how they placed in one tournament while I guess I'm thinking more long term in that aspect.
All that I'm saying is that, back in the day, those who seemed to be able to get their ball into a more stable roll of their hand appeared to score better over the long run. Sorry for any confusion.
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Brunswick Advisory Staff
Jared Wolf
Jonesboro, AR
www.bowlingchat.net
Post by: Brandon Riley on May 23, 2009, 02:26:16 AM
however, if the tour still used lacquer or even old wood lanes the story may be a bit different. If it was simply plastic balls on good surfaces I would have to say Norm Duke. As good and accurate as he is, he would not be able to play his straighter angles and enjoy the luxury of good carry to the extent that he has. I think he would still be on tour, but not a player of the year contender without the aggressive coverstocks and strong cores featured in today's bowling balls. What makes Duke special is that he can play straight the longest, and with everybody else being forced right with weak equipment, he would lose his advantage.
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Brandon Riley
Post by: ChrispyBrownies on May 23, 2009, 03:41:18 AM
wes malott.
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Post by: supernoodle on May 23, 2009, 07:06:48 AM
If this equipment was not available then it is quite likely that they would have a differnt release entirely and who is to say that they would not have been as good as they currently are or possibly even better?
I am no pro but I know myself that if such aggresive balls were not available, I would simply bowl a different way and whilst things like carry might change a bit, I doubt my accuracy would and I don't believe that would be the case for the pros either and when push comes to shove that is the key to sports such as ours.
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I would have got away with it if it was not for those pesky kids (Behind my lane) and those blasted 10 pins.
Post by: mmcfarland300 on May 23, 2009, 08:54:58 AM
Post by: Urethane Game on May 23, 2009, 09:02:16 AM
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Classic Rock and Blues Net Radio (http://"http://www.roosterradio.net")
Post by: joeschmoe on May 23, 2009, 09:08:35 AM
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Beer makes ya smart...It made Bud-wiser.
Post by: sdbowler on May 23, 2009, 09:29:33 AM
To sit here and say this pro or that pro would not be as good is hard to say because the oil has changed as well. Look at guys like PDW, Duke, PB3, WRW, they all have been around to see everything change and they all have stayed up on top. The pros are out on tour because they have learned to adapt to differing circumstances including ball technology as well as oil technology.
In my eyes there are to many variables to consider when tossing this question out.
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Kyle
Post by: djones on May 23, 2009, 10:19:46 AM
Post by: JessN16 on May 23, 2009, 02:19:13 PM
quote:
That was a modified pattern
And we watched those guys scuff the hell out that equipment before they used it
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Why do people keep trying to compare Lane #1 to other equipment.....when there really is no comparison
Best Prices in all of Colorado on Lane #1 equipment....
So what? You think that if we all went back to plastic and pancakes tomorrow that they would keep the volumes of oil as high as they are now?
The reason Cheetah was modified for the Plastic Ball Championship was to get it more in line with the volumes that were in use back when plastic was king. If you took today's PBA patterns back to 1960 and had those guys bowl on them, it would look like the "wet" lanes at the Peterson. Everyone would be sliding through the back.
I don't think scuffing the ball was just invented in the 1990s, either.
Jess
Post by: abrown on May 23, 2009, 02:48:38 PM
Post by: azus on May 23, 2009, 04:06:43 PM
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I like my coffee black, just like my metal.
What would Chuck Norris do?
(\ /)
( . .)
c(')(')
Cute Bunny! copy bunny into sig to help him achieve world domination
Post by: SKC on May 23, 2009, 08:34:40 PM
quote:
belmonte and palermaa would each have about 10+ titles.
I couldn't agree more..
What folks probably cant imagine is that these two guys are incredibly accurate.. I once saw a CATS analysis of Osku from some tournament and he the most he sprayed in 6 games was 4 boards.. In that block he had about 3 games in which he didn't spray more than 3 boards.. And that included 19 frames straight in which he didn't spray more than 2 boards..
I'm not trying to sound like a Osku or Jason die hard.. But i've bowled a lot tournaments with these guys and they still impress me over and over again..
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Tough times don't last, tough people do...
Aggression is an attitude, not an emotion...
Post by: skoolxbo1 on May 23, 2009, 08:42:47 PM
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My Arsenals:
Roto Grip Cell 2x
Roto Grip Rogue Cell
Roto Grip Hybrid Cell
Roto Grip Saturn
Ebonite Playmaker
Ebonite The One
Track Xception 5.0
Track Animal Untamed
Track Flaming T Clear
Track Phoenix
Columbia 300 White Dot
Columbia 300 Outrage
Columbia 300 Shadow
Post by: BBU on May 24, 2009, 04:59:03 AM
quote:
CHRIS BARNES AVERAGED 239 IN THE PLASTIC BALL TOURNEY. I THINK HE WOULD DO FINE. I SAW WES MALOTT ON THE KING OF BOWLING WITH A PLASTIC BALL, HE SURE CAN HOOK IT, I THINK HE SHOT 249, BUT THAT WAS WITH UNBELEIVABLE CARRY AT THE USBC KEGEL CENTER
Dude what you dont get is, those were not just a regular old Spongebob Squarepants plastic ball in my Joe Schmoe bag. Those balls had a pancake weightblock in them. The ball was drilled to hook. So, infact, those high scores werent actually as impressive..they might as well have been throwing my Flash Force or my Tropical Storm with about $5 worth of wax on them! JEEZ!
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Its Hammer Time!!
HammerHead 4 Life
Post by: Locke on May 24, 2009, 05:06:07 AM
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Always be sincere, even when you don't mean it
The Cell Pimp
Post by: kidlost2000 on May 24, 2009, 07:39:50 AM
They all know how to spare consistently.
They all know how to adjust to different lanes and changing conditions.
Power players would still be on there consistently because they will consistently have more area and more carry/pin action then those who can't hook the ball as much.
They would all still be there.
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" hand, don't step on the lanes without some "
Post by: Oskuposer on May 24, 2009, 08:17:54 AM
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Kiall Hill
Visionary test staff
Post by: Strider on May 24, 2009, 08:19:40 AM
quote:quote:
CHRIS BARNES AVERAGED 239 IN THE PLASTIC BALL TOURNEY. I THINK HE WOULD DO FINE. I SAW WES MALOTT ON THE KING OF BOWLING WITH A PLASTIC BALL, HE SURE CAN HOOK IT, I THINK HE SHOT 249, BUT THAT WAS WITH UNBELEIVABLE CARRY AT THE USBC KEGEL CENTER
Dude what you dont get is, those were not just a regular old Spongebob Squarepants plastic ball in my Joe Schmoe bag. Those balls had a pancake weightblock in them. The ball was drilled to hook. So, infact, those high scores werent actually as impressive..they might as well have been throwing my Flash Force or my Tropical Storm with about $5 worth of wax on them! JEEZ!
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Its Hammer Time!!
HammerHead 4 Life
Someone posted this before, probably you. All normal weight plastic balls currently available and "back in the day" have a pancake weight block in them. Very light weight balls have nothing but filler inside, and there have been a few plastic balls made over the years with a solid 2 piece dynamic core. Design wise, a White Dot (and Ebonite's 59th anniversary plastic ball) is the same today as it was years ago. The pancake compared to a real 2 piece core had nothing to do with the high scores. The pancake probably has more to do with keeping the balls from cracking because the driller has something solid to drill into than it does about static weights and performance.
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Penn State Proud
Ron Clifton's Bowling Tip Archive (http://"http://www.bowl4fun.com/ron/roncarchive.htm")
Post by: chipmunkbowler on May 25, 2009, 07:17:05 AM
Mike Scroggins
PB3
Post by: mainzer on May 25, 2009, 12:48:00 PM
I think the guys that would suffer most would be Tommy Jones and Sean Rash, Rash especially, he couldn't hit water if throw the ball off a boat.
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''If their is a life after death,
then their is no death,
and if their is no death,
we do not live''
Progressive Metal Band
EVERGREY
MainzerPower
Post by: jnblues on May 25, 2009, 03:06:21 PM
Post by: Crankenstein300 on May 25, 2009, 03:34:24 PM
Being that a lot of these guys are just damn good, they would adjust with the technology they have at their disposal.
Post by: DP3 on May 25, 2009, 04:36:49 PM
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-DJ Marshall
8 years experience Sales Manager
5 years experience Pro Shop Operator
Are you hiring? ....Have skills, will travel
Post by: jbruno6 on May 26, 2009, 08:28:09 AM
quote:
Wow, I think my brain just exploded by some of the answers in this thread. People are certainly entitled to their opinion but man some of you are just dead wrong.
Being that a lot of these guys are just damn good, they would adjust with the technology they have at their disposal.
+1 The best bowlers are the best bowlers, period. Being that this this thread has pretty much eliminated the top 40, who would be in the top 40?
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Post by: rosanj06 on May 26, 2009, 10:48:41 PM
Post by: rosanj06 on May 26, 2009, 11:55:47 PM
Post by: Ceo of DcYg bowling club on May 27, 2009, 03:23:35 PM
WES MALOTT
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"Im Barack Obama and I approved this message"
Post by: Xfest on May 27, 2009, 03:44:41 PM
Oh wait, he already is struggling..
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Stand left, throw right, and strap it like a trojan!!
Post by: NoseofRI on May 27, 2009, 03:50:28 PM
quote:
Walter Ray and Duke. The majority of their titles have come during the resin era. Before then they were the kings of plaque 10s.
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Classic Rock and Blues Net Radio (http://"http://www.roosterradio.net")
Duke won his first title at 18 with urethane if I remember correctly. Youngest EVER to win a title. Yeah, he wouldn't be anything...
Sorry forgot to add that anyone who said Barnes is just, as dp said early, retarded. So you honestly think a guy who has 500+ revs, and always attempts to play the lanes about as straight as Walter Ray "benefits" from the technology? If anything is has hurt him more often than helped him. Because guess what, all the high 4-pins that he leaves on TV would be trip 4-pins with slightly less equipment. But hey you have your own absolutely clueless opinion probably because of the simple fact that you personally just don't like him.
And for the person that compared Scroggins with Earl Anthony, I mean come on....seriously.... That is just utterly amazing.
My vote goes to Jeff Carter
Edited on 5/27/2009 4:11 PM
Post by: BrianCRX90 on May 27, 2009, 08:35:58 PM
quote:
Del Ballard Jr.
Are you not informed or trying to be funny? Ballard fell off the map after reactive balls came out. After he won the 2nd open he tried using reactives and pretty much had to and never was the same bowler. You should have realized that since he hasn't been on tour in years and hasn't won a title since 1993.
Edited on 5/27/2009 8:36 PM
Post by: AdrianS on June 03, 2009, 09:18:35 PM
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Time for some REAL bowling!!!
Post by: JD74 on June 04, 2009, 12:16:57 PM
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Lefty
300(5)
800(1)
Average 220+
http://ebonite.com/
BOWL TO WIN!
Post by: Crankenstein300 on June 04, 2009, 12:35:29 PM
Post by: DP3 on June 04, 2009, 12:42:48 PM
quote:
You guys do realize that WRW still outrevs half of you guys here, right? Not everyone has 400rpms like the majority seem to think they have.
You are wrong and everyone else is right.
Post by: JessN16 on June 04, 2009, 01:16:59 PM
quote:quote:
Walter Ray and Duke. The majority of their titles have come during the resin era. Before then they were the kings of plaque 10s.
--------------------
Classic Rock and Blues Net Radio (http://"http://www.roosterradio.net")
Duke won his first title at 18 with urethane if I remember correctly. Youngest EVER to win a title. Yeah, he wouldn't be anything...
Sorry forgot to add that anyone who said Barnes is just, as dp said early, retarded. So you honestly think a guy who has 500+ revs, and always attempts to play the lanes about as straight as Walter Ray "benefits" from the technology? If anything is has hurt him more often than helped him. Because guess what, all the high 4-pins that he leaves on TV would be trip 4-pins with slightly less equipment. But hey you have your own absolutely clueless opinion probably because of the simple fact that you personally just don't like him.
And for the person that compared Scroggins with Earl Anthony, I mean come on....seriously.... That is just utterly amazing.
My vote goes to Jeff Carter
Edited on 5/27/2009 4:11 PM
The guy who just won the Plastic Ball Championship?
Jess
Post by: NoseofRI on June 04, 2009, 04:18:23 PM
quote:quote:quote:
Walter Ray and Duke. The majority of their titles have come during the resin era. Before then they were the kings of plaque 10s.
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Duke won his first title at 18 with urethane if I remember correctly. Youngest EVER to win a title. Yeah, he wouldn't be anything...
Sorry forgot to add that anyone who said Barnes is just, as dp said early, retarded. So you honestly think a guy who has 500+ revs, and always attempts to play the lanes about as straight as Walter Ray "benefits" from the technology? If anything is has hurt him more often than helped him. Because guess what, all the high 4-pins that he leaves on TV would be trip 4-pins with slightly less equipment. But hey you have your own absolutely clueless opinion probably because of the simple fact that you personally just don't like him.
And for the person that compared Scroggins with Earl Anthony, I mean come on....seriously.... That is just utterly amazing.
My vote goes to Jeff Carter
The guy who just won the Plastic Ball Championship?
Jess
Well if I must take the time to explain this too you then its clear you don't have a lot of bowling knowledge. First I'll start by saying what are you two things Carter has excelled on? 1. THS 2. 21st Century Plastic Ball tournament
He's not accurate and the plastic ball tournament clearly aided his inaccurracy far greater than other tournaments as it landed perfectly in his wheelhouse of Grip, Grab, Power Spray, and Carry A game. The fact is guys like Anthony, Weber (father AND son), Don Carter, WRW, Duke have one part of their game that is lightyears better than Jeff Carter and that is ACCURACY.
Seeing as how you are arguing this point, I'd like to hear your reasoning as why Jeff Carter is JUST NOW making it to tour whens he's only a couple years behnid Duke and Weber in age?
Edited on 6/4/2009 4:21 PM
Post by: Nails on June 04, 2009, 04:52:09 PM
quote:
The guy who just won the Plastic Ball Championship?
Jess
Well if I must take the time to explain this too you then its clear you don't have a lot of bowling knowledge. First I'll start by saying what are you two things Carter has excelled on? 1. THS 2. 21st Century Plastic Ball tournament
He's not accurate and the plastic ball tournament clearly aided his inaccurracy far greater than other tournaments as it landed perfectly in his wheelhouse of Grip, Grab, Power Spray, and Carry A game. The fact is guys like Anthony, Weber (father AND son), Don Carter, WRW, Duke have one part of their game that is lightyears better than Jeff Carter and that is ACCURACY.
Seeing as how you are arguing this point, I'd like to hear your reasoning as why Jeff Carter is JUST NOW making it to tour whens he's only a couple years behnid Duke and Weber in age?
Edited on 6/4/2009 4:21 PM
Wow, Jess gets unloaded on just because he made the comment that Jeff won the plastic ball championship? No where did he say that he was better than the Hall of Famers you mentioned. Also, not to defend Jeff, but he's only been on the tour for a few years, not 25 or so like Duke and Weber. Who knows why Jeff didn't pursue it earlier. Talent, money, travel, family...
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Telling it like it is.
Post by: NoseofRI on June 04, 2009, 05:06:03 PM
quote:
Wow, Jess gets unloaded on just because he made the comment that Jeff won the plastic ball championship? No where did he say that he was better than the Hall of Famers you mentioned. Also, not to defend Jeff, but he's only been on the tour for a few years, not 25 or so like Duke and Weber. Who knows why Jeff didn't pursue it earlier. Talent, money, travel, family...
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Telling it like it is.
You must have always received a "poor" on your report cards for Comprehension and Reading skills. Because first of all this topic asked "what pro would NOT be where they are with out all the great technology" Summary: I answered question asked with Jeff Carter, JessN thought to question my response because Carter won the "plastic ball tournament", I responded and explained my stance on my pick, you come in after calling everyone out in another thread for so called "trolling" and "hypocriticalness" <--not a word but I'm making it one for my statement, yet don't argue my point, or offer a rebutle, or debate what I said at all, I now respond to you and explain the small and one sided debate between JessN and myself. Didn't realize you were the official "I'm Calling-You-Out Guy" of BR.
Post by: pate08 on June 04, 2009, 05:07:47 PM
quote:quote:quote:quote:
Walter Ray and Duke. The majority of their titles have come during the resin era. Before then they were the kings of plaque 10s.
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Duke won his first title at 18 with urethane if I remember correctly. Youngest EVER to win a title. Yeah, he wouldn't be anything...
Sorry forgot to add that anyone who said Barnes is just, as dp said early, retarded. So you honestly think a guy who has 500+ revs, and always attempts to play the lanes about as straight as Walter Ray "benefits" from the technology? If anything is has hurt him more often than helped him. Because guess what, all the high 4-pins that he leaves on TV would be trip 4-pins with slightly less equipment. But hey you have your own absolutely clueless opinion probably because of the simple fact that you personally just don't like him.
And for the person that compared Scroggins with Earl Anthony, I mean come on....seriously.... That is just utterly amazing.
My vote goes to Jeff Carter
The guy who just won the Plastic Ball Championship?
Jess
Well if I must take the time to explain this too you then its clear you don't have a lot of bowling knowledge. First I'll start by saying what are you two things Carter has excelled on? 1. THS 2. 21st Century Plastic Ball tournament
He's not accurate and the plastic ball tournament clearly aided his inaccurracy far greater than other tournaments as it landed perfectly in his wheelhouse of Grip, Grab, Power Spray, and Carry A game. The fact is guys like Anthony, Weber (father AND son), Don Carter, WRW, Duke have one part of their game that is lightyears better than Jeff Carter and that is ACCURACY.
Seeing as how you are arguing this point, I'd like to hear your reasoning as why Jeff Carter is JUST NOW making it to tour whens he's only a couple years behnid Duke and Weber in age?
Edited on 6/4/2009 4:21 PM
He's not accurate, yet he made the telecast at the US Open 2 years ago?
I made a comment a while ago that I deleted but I am going to have to restate it. Most of the people here have absolutely no idea what they are talking about, but they think they do. If you want an answer that actually has some weight behind it, go ask someone on tour or a tour rep or someone like that. They are around the PBA and have been for a long time, and they actually know what they are talking about.
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Post by: JessN16 on June 04, 2009, 05:17:22 PM
quote:
Well if I must take the time to explain this too you then its clear you don't have a lot of bowling knowledge. First I'll start by saying what are you two things Carter has excelled on? 1. THS 2. 21st Century Plastic Ball tournament
He's not accurate and the plastic ball tournament clearly aided his inaccurracy far greater than other tournaments as it landed perfectly in his wheelhouse of Grip, Grab, Power Spray, and Carry A game. The fact is guys like Anthony, Weber (father AND son), Don Carter, WRW, Duke have one part of their game that is lightyears better than Jeff Carter and that is ACCURACY.
Seeing as how you are arguing this point, I'd like to hear your reasoning as why Jeff Carter is JUST NOW making it to tour whens he's only a couple years behnid Duke and Weber in age?
Edited on 6/4/2009 4:21 PM
How is any of that relevant? Bad argument all around.
1) I'm not saying Jeff Carter is better than any of the other bowlers you mentioned,
2) None of the rest of it is relevant to the fact that he won the Plastic Ball Championship.
The sentence that really makes me pause is this one: "He's not accurate and the plastic ball tournament clearly aided his inaccurracy far greater than other tournaments"
I've been bowling since the days of plastic and I've never seen any kind of plastic format "aid inaccuracy" in any form or fashion. If you go ask the old guys on PBA.com what they hate about the resin era, they'll tell you one of the things they don't like about resin is the amount of miss room it affords people -- i.e., spray it at a breakpoint zone and watch it hook.
I may not be a bowling encyclopedia, but I have enough knowledge to know that if you bowl a plastic format and you're spraying the ball, you're not going to last. And too often -- both on this forum when talking about league bowlers, and in discussions of high-rev guys in general -- there is a tendency to label any cranker as a "sprayer." It's like there's some unwritten rule that a guy can't rev the ball and hit a mark at the same time.
That should have become abundantly clear last year during Belmonte's win, where he was throwing plastic on one lane and had a target of about a half-inch he could hit and count on striking.
Maybe Jeff got lucky one week, but the fact remains he won the tournament, and guys like Duke, Walter Ray, etc., didn't just automatically go to the top because they're more accurate than a sniper rifle.
For us to know how well he -- or anyone -- would do in weekly plastic formats, we'd have to revert to plastic on a regular basis. Well, Jeff is younger than me (I think) and I came up just in the very end of the real plastic era and heyday of the urethane era, so I'm not sure we have any of his pre-resin exploits to check.
I just thought it was a little odd to name the one guy in the field who actually won the tournament as the guy who would struggle. Besides, if a 21st Century plastic tournament aids high-rev sprayers, and it aided Jeff to his win, by your own words it's proof that he wouldn't struggle.
My answer to the original question is that probably all the guys who are currently exempt have the talent to succeed regardless of the format.
Jess
Post by: NoseofRI on June 04, 2009, 06:04:49 PM
Also I used WRW and Duke and others as an example because so many others said that'd be nothing without technology, but comparing games its clear to someone with knowledge that those guys would be there no matter what, and in my opinion watching Jeff's game I'm not so sure he would.
Post by: strikealot on June 04, 2009, 06:14:17 PM
quote:
Look at the top 8, I believe 7 were VERY HIGH Rev players and Pete Weber who's unique roll creates carry. So High Rev + Plastic + a blended light volume shot = Less OVERREACTION from the bowling ball and greater carry no matter how you catch the pocket. So in essence this plastic ball tournament did allow a certain type of guy more area, which my argument, going back, is that this was not as much the case in the older days without all the technology
agree 100%, the crankers created their room and hold..had more room to spray the ball, therefore the crankers did well in this tournament. accuracy FTL and revs and spray FTW
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~<:-0======"IN CG WE TRUST" i chant as i pray to the static weight God...======
Post by: JessN16 on June 04, 2009, 06:23:00 PM
quote:
Actually JessN it is a very viable argument. Did you pay attention at ALL to the plastic ball tournament? Look at the top 8, I believe 7 were VERY HIGH Rev players and Pete Weber who's unique roll creates carry. So High Rev + Plastic + a blended light volume shot = Less OVERREACTION from the bowling ball and greater carry no matter how you catch the pocket. So in essence this plastic ball tournament did allow a certain type of guy more area, which my argument, going back, is that this was not as much the case in the older days without all the technology. Being that I've seen and experienced this stuff first hand and also talked with many reps, staffers, and touring guys I CAN safely say that this type of condition/tournament/setup strictly favors someone with a game similar to Jeff's.
Also I used WRW and Duke and others as an example because so many others said that'd be nothing without technology, but comparing games its clear to someone with knowledge that those guys would be there no matter what, and in my opinion watching Jeff's game I'm not so sure he would.
Here's the thing: Whether Jeff would or not has already been decided. He did.
The original question asked where the pros would be today with plastic balls and pancake cores. That is what was used in the Plastic Ball Championship. The only other pieces of technology used were an oil machine and a bunch of Abralon pads to alter surface.
So if the plastic environment -- as you claim -- benefited high-rev guys and (going off the last post) accuracy isn't a really big deal, then you can't at the same time say Jeff Carter would be hurt by it.
You are arguing two completely different points at the same time.
1) In one hand, you are saying that Jeff Carter would be hurt by a tech reversion, because he sprays it.
2) On the other hand, you are saying that guys who rev the ball up would succeed because plastic would mute overreaction downlane off mistakes in accuracy.
That's why the argument doesn't make any sense to me. The very guy who you claim struggles in (1) is described by (2).
As to the technology angle, what technology at the Plastic Ball Championship? The shells were polyester, the weight blocks were pancakes (the ball itself was an Ebonite Maxim) and the lane oil was reduced to the levels that were present back in the old days. Jeff Carter wasn't helped by technological advancements at the PBC ... no one was. Unless you consider Abralon to be a major step up from sandpaper.
And I can do without the "you must not know anything about bowling" digs. Uncalled for and inaccurate on top of that.
Jess
Post by: DP3 on June 04, 2009, 11:15:11 PM
He's a very good regional player with alot of experience that nose what he's talking about. Every argument he has made has been spot on. It just seems like alot of people are having trouble separating personal emotions from fact and logical reasoning.
Post by: JessN16 on June 05, 2009, 01:19:29 AM
quote:
NoseofRI nose his stuff.
He's a very good regional player with alot of experience that nose what he's talking about. Every argument he has made has been spot on. It just seems like alot of people are having trouble separating personal emotions from fact and logical reasoning.
Give me an example of that, please. I would like clarification on how someone can argue that plastic helps high-rev sprayers, but then say Jeff Carter wouldn't succeed because he's a high-rev sprayer.
Does anyone not see the failure in logic there?
Jess
Post by: rosanj06 on June 05, 2009, 01:23:44 AM
Post by: JessN16 on June 05, 2009, 01:37:25 AM
quote:
I do not see the failure it logic. Nice work Nose
Okay, defend and explain it. Thanks.
Jess
Post by: DP3 on June 05, 2009, 09:25:14 AM
quote:quote:
NoseofRI nose his stuff.
He's a very good regional player with alot of experience that nose what he's talking about. Every argument he has made has been spot on. It just seems like alot of people are having trouble separating personal emotions from fact and logical reasoning.
Give me an example of that, please. I would like clarification on how someone can argue that plastic helps high-rev sprayers, but then say Jeff Carter wouldn't succeed because he's a high-rev sprayer.
Does anyone not see the failure in logic there?
Jess
Did the 1970s and early 80s skip you or something? Bowling 101, anywhere there is a large friction zone and a low flaring, non pourous ball, the most dynamic release in relation to speed and revrate will have an advantage in the area needed to strike. Norm Duke's ball hits half pocket with plastic on that pattern, it's a bucket. Jeff Carter or Ryan Shafer's release with that pattern and plastic goes half pocket, easy light mixer/flash messenger for a strike.
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-DJ Marshall
8 years experience Sales Manager
5 years experience Pro Shop Operator
Are you hiring? ....Have skills, will travel
Post by: Nails on June 05, 2009, 09:37:02 AM
quote:
Did the 1970s and early 80s skip you or something? Bowling 101, anywhere there is a large friction zone and a low flaring, non pourous ball, the most dynamic release in relation to speed and revrate will have an advantage in the area needed to strike. Norm Duke's ball hits half pocket with plastic on that pattern, it's a bucket. Jeff Carter or Ryan Shafer's release with that pattern and plastic goes half pocket, easy light mixer/flash messenger for a strike.
--------------------
-DJ Marshall
8 years experience Sales Manager
5 years experience Pro Shop Operator
Are you hiring? ....Have skills, will travel
Soooooo..... Jeff Carter's release and rev rate are good for plastic balls. So he'd be good if we got rid of technology. So he'd be a guy that would still be on the tour, maybe dominating by your logic? Doesn't that contradict what you and Nose are trying to say?
FYI Nose, I was more commenting on your attitude, not your content, when replying to Jess. If you would have simply stated your case instead of acting snotty maybe you'd get more people to listen to you instead of getting defensive. Because Jeff hits up on the ball, I'd think he'd do pretty well with plastic or urethane. As DP3 said, a lot would depend on the lane conditions. I'm sure a lot of the pros would be able to adjust their roll to match whatever was laid out. I really couldn't guess who would be solid and who would be on the outside looking in.
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Telling it like it is.
Post by: JessN16 on June 05, 2009, 10:24:41 AM
quote:
Did the 1970s and early 80s skip you or something? Bowling 101, anywhere there is a large friction zone and a low flaring, non pourous ball, the most dynamic release in relation to speed and revrate will have an advantage in the area needed to strike. Norm Duke's ball hits half pocket with plastic on that pattern, it's a bucket. Jeff Carter or Ryan Shafer's release with that pattern and plastic goes half pocket, easy light mixer/flash messenger for a strike.
--------------------
-DJ Marshall
8 years experience Sales Manager
5 years experience Pro Shop Operator
Are you hiring? ....Have skills, will travel
DJ,
I agree with that -- that was the point of my original post. Nose said the same things you just did, but then claimed Jeff Carter would struggle.
That's where the logic goes sideways. It's like saying "Red tennis balls don't bounce. But my ball will bounce because it's red." Doesn't make sense.
Jess
Post by: NoseofRI on June 05, 2009, 10:42:31 AM
Jeff Carter is talented, not denyable, I'll give him that with out a doubt. But for an example if the US Open was about accuracy WRW would make the show every year, but the fact is on a pattern as tough as that is, its more about creating the most area for yourself. And guess what, the year Carter made the show, the T-Road Pearl made that pattern look like a slightly tweaked house shot for some guys, Jeff Carter being one that year. Jeff's game allows him to create area, the days without technology were about striclty accuracy hence my answer.
Post by: JessN16 on June 05, 2009, 10:52:20 AM
quote:
It really seems to be that some don't actually understand HOW DIFFERENT that plastic ball tournament was from the old Retro Days. But that far beyond the point. What I'm saying is that the equipment of today will allow a game like Jeff Carter's to create more area than it does for the so-called stroker, and in respect that means that todays vast advancement in technology assists Jeff Carter more than it does others. Therefore in answering the original question asked my answer was Jeff Carter.
Jeff Carter is talented, not denyable, I'll give him that with out a doubt. But for an example if the US Open was about accuracy WRW would make the show every year, but the fact is on a pattern as tough as that is, its more about creating the most area for yourself. And guess what, the year Carter made the show, the T-Road Pearl made that pattern look like a slightly tweaked house shot for some guys, Jeff Carter being one that year. Jeff's game allows him to create area, the days without technology were about striclty accuracy hence my answer.
Nose, that's fine, but there was no technology in play at the Plastic Ball Championship. It was rebadged Ebonite Maxims on 80s-era oil volumes. That's not very different from the "old days."
The only two things the guys could do that week were move static weights around and adjust surface, and those things were done in the 50s/60s/70s/80s as well as today. Hell, the guys at the Plastic Ball Championship didn't even get to try to soak their balls in MEK or leave them by the radiator all night.
I read the original question as a hypothetical that if you took all the ball tech out of the picture right now, which of the 60-80 top players would struggle and which ones would succeed. Given that the conditions at the PBC were pretty much in line with the plastic era's heyday, I don't see how Carter (or Robert Smith, etc.) could be expected to struggle on "old conditions" given how they performed at the PBC.
Jess
Post by: NoseofRI on June 05, 2009, 11:02:50 AM
Post by: JessN16 on June 05, 2009, 11:52:31 AM
Still, the crankers could use harder balls to their advantage -- i.e., getting through the front part of the lane, and/or to overcome the effects of bowling on natural wood. So I guess even back then, ball tech was an issue.
The problem with tech reversion in the here and now is that we can limit ball tech but we can't go ripping up synthetic lane beds. Some of our current technology is completely irreversible. I think discussions of who could be successful, from today's game, need to be framed in that context -- especially since most of these guys aren't old enough to have ever bowled in the "old" era to get a baseline measurement of how they'd perform on it.
I came up in a house that still has 10 wood lanes, telescores and above-ground returns, and until a few years ago still oiled the lanes with a bug sprayer. They've since upgraded to a "state of the art" Century 100 machine.
Jess
Post by: Sean John 369 on June 05, 2009, 12:03:25 PM
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Post by: Dan Belcher on June 05, 2009, 02:22:18 PM
quote:I also noticed during the telecast and watching the streaming video of match play that these guys were all pretty darn accurate! According to the CATS numbers, PDW never missed by more than 1 board left or right of his target the entire first match on TV if I remember correctly. It's not like these guys were swinging it out wide one shot and tugging it left a mile the next -- they just had more room to hit the pocket and carry because of the extra backend angle and reduced deflection. They were almost as accurate as the lower rev guys, they just had a larger pocket to hit and still carry. (Low rev guy goes 4 pin if he gets it a pinch high, the high rev guy trips that same 4 pin out on the same kind of hit, you know?)
Did you pay attention at ALL to the plastic ball tournament? Look at the top 8, I believe 7 were VERY HIGH Rev players and Pete Weber who's unique roll creates carry.
It's hard to say how most of today's bowlers would have done on older wood lanes with unpredictable oil, etc. since their styles were directly influenced by what technology they had to work with. If you just took today's bowlers and had them grow up 30-40 years earlier, they would probably all be using stretched spans with lots of reverse in the thumbhole still, for example. So the original question in this thread is basically impossible to answer since there's just too many variables and too many ways to approach it.
Post by: chipmunkbowler on June 07, 2009, 05:57:56 AM