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Author Topic: Name a Pro Bowler that would.....  (Read 8468 times)

strikecing

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Name a Pro Bowler that would.....
« on: May 22, 2009, 01:50:50 PM »
in your opnion not be where they are at with out all the great technology that we have now.  Say that All we had these days were platic balls with pancake cores.  What pro bowler would not be where they are today??  Just for fun not trying to take anything away from those guys cause they are great.
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JessN16

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Re: Name a Pro Bowler that would.....
« Reply #61 on: June 05, 2009, 01:19:29 AM »
quote:
NoseofRI nose his stuff.  

He's a very good regional player with alot of experience that nose what he's talking about.  Every argument he has made has been spot on.  It just seems like alot of people are having trouble separating personal emotions from fact and logical reasoning.


Give me an example of that, please. I would like clarification on how someone can argue that plastic helps high-rev sprayers, but then say Jeff Carter wouldn't succeed because he's a high-rev sprayer.

Does anyone not see the failure in logic there?

Jess

rosanj06

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Re: Name a Pro Bowler that would.....
« Reply #62 on: June 05, 2009, 01:23:44 AM »
I do not see the failure it logic. Nice work Nose

JessN16

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Re: Name a Pro Bowler that would.....
« Reply #63 on: June 05, 2009, 01:37:25 AM »
quote:
I do not see the failure it logic. Nice work Nose


Okay, defend and explain it. Thanks.

Jess

DP3

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Re: Name a Pro Bowler that would.....
« Reply #64 on: June 05, 2009, 09:25:14 AM »
quote:
quote:
NoseofRI nose his stuff.  

He's a very good regional player with alot of experience that nose what he's talking about.  Every argument he has made has been spot on.  It just seems like alot of people are having trouble separating personal emotions from fact and logical reasoning.


Give me an example of that, please. I would like clarification on how someone can argue that plastic helps high-rev sprayers, but then say Jeff Carter wouldn't succeed because he's a high-rev sprayer.

Does anyone not see the failure in logic there?

Jess


Did the 1970s and early 80s skip you or something?  Bowling 101, anywhere there is a large friction zone and a low flaring, non pourous ball, the most dynamic release in relation to speed and revrate will have an advantage in the area needed to strike.  Norm Duke's ball hits half pocket with plastic on that pattern, it's a bucket.  Jeff Carter or Ryan Shafer's release with that pattern and plastic goes half pocket, easy light mixer/flash messenger for a strike.
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Nails

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Re: Name a Pro Bowler that would.....
« Reply #65 on: June 05, 2009, 09:37:02 AM »
quote:
Did the 1970s and early 80s skip you or something?  Bowling 101, anywhere there is a large friction zone and a low flaring, non pourous ball, the most dynamic release in relation to speed and revrate will have an advantage in the area needed to strike.  Norm Duke's ball hits half pocket with plastic on that pattern, it's a bucket.  Jeff Carter or Ryan Shafer's release with that pattern and plastic goes half pocket, easy light mixer/flash messenger for a strike.
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-DJ Marshall
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Are you hiring? ....Have skills, will travel




Soooooo..... Jeff Carter's release and rev rate are good for plastic balls.  So he'd be good if we got rid of technology.  So he'd be a guy that would still be on the tour, maybe dominating by your logic?  Doesn't that contradict what you and Nose are trying to say?

FYI Nose, I was more commenting on your attitude, not your content, when replying to Jess.  If  you would have simply stated your case instead of acting snotty maybe you'd get more people to listen to you instead of getting defensive.  Because Jeff hits up on the ball, I'd think he'd do pretty well with plastic or urethane.  As DP3 said, a lot would depend on the lane conditions.  I'm sure a lot of the pros would be able to adjust their roll to match whatever was laid out.  I really couldn't guess who would be solid and who would be on the outside looking in.
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JessN16

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Re: Name a Pro Bowler that would.....
« Reply #66 on: June 05, 2009, 10:24:41 AM »
quote:


Did the 1970s and early 80s skip you or something?  Bowling 101, anywhere there is a large friction zone and a low flaring, non pourous ball, the most dynamic release in relation to speed and revrate will have an advantage in the area needed to strike.  Norm Duke's ball hits half pocket with plastic on that pattern, it's a bucket.  Jeff Carter or Ryan Shafer's release with that pattern and plastic goes half pocket, easy light mixer/flash messenger for a strike.
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-DJ Marshall
8 years experience Sales Manager
5 years experience Pro Shop Operator
Are you hiring? ....Have skills, will travel




DJ,

I agree with that -- that was the point of my original post. Nose said the same things you just did, but then claimed Jeff Carter would struggle.

That's where the logic goes sideways. It's like saying "Red tennis balls don't bounce. But my ball will bounce because it's red." Doesn't make sense.

Jess

NoseofRI

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Re: Name a Pro Bowler that would.....
« Reply #67 on: June 05, 2009, 10:42:31 AM »
It really seems to be that some don't actually understand HOW DIFFERENT that plastic ball tournament was from the old Retro Days.  But that far beyond the point.  What I'm saying is that the equipment of today will allow a game like Jeff Carter's to create more area than it does for the so-called stroker, and in respect that means that todays vast advancement in technology assists Jeff Carter more than it does others.  Therefore in answering the original question asked my answer was Jeff Carter.  
Jeff Carter is talented, not denyable, I'll give him that with out a doubt.  But for an example if the US Open was about accuracy WRW would make the show every year, but the fact is on a pattern as tough as that is, its more about creating the most area for yourself.  And guess what, the year Carter made the show, the T-Road Pearl made that pattern look like a slightly tweaked house shot for some guys, Jeff Carter being one that year.  Jeff's game allows him to create area, the days without technology were about striclty accuracy hence my answer.

JessN16

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Re: Name a Pro Bowler that would.....
« Reply #68 on: June 05, 2009, 10:52:20 AM »
quote:
It really seems to be that some don't actually understand HOW DIFFERENT that plastic ball tournament was from the old Retro Days.  But that far beyond the point.  What I'm saying is that the equipment of today will allow a game like Jeff Carter's to create more area than it does for the so-called stroker, and in respect that means that todays vast advancement in technology assists Jeff Carter more than it does others.  Therefore in answering the original question asked my answer was Jeff Carter.  
Jeff Carter is talented, not denyable, I'll give him that with out a doubt.  But for an example if the US Open was about accuracy WRW would make the show every year, but the fact is on a pattern as tough as that is, its more about creating the most area for yourself.  And guess what, the year Carter made the show, the T-Road Pearl made that pattern look like a slightly tweaked house shot for some guys, Jeff Carter being one that year.  Jeff's game allows him to create area, the days without technology were about striclty accuracy hence my answer.


Nose, that's fine, but there was no technology in play at the Plastic Ball Championship. It was rebadged Ebonite Maxims on 80s-era oil volumes. That's not very different from the "old days."

The only two things the guys could do that week were move static weights around and adjust surface, and those things were done in the 50s/60s/70s/80s as well as today. Hell, the guys at the Plastic Ball Championship didn't even get to try to soak their balls in MEK or leave them by the radiator all night.

I read the original question as a hypothetical that if you took all the ball tech out of the picture right now, which of the 60-80 top players would struggle and which ones would succeed. Given that the conditions at the PBC were pretty much in line with the plastic era's heyday, I don't see how Carter (or Robert Smith, etc.) could be expected to struggle on "old conditions" given how they performed at the PBC.

Jess

NoseofRI

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Re: Name a Pro Bowler that would.....
« Reply #69 on: June 05, 2009, 11:02:50 AM »
Well I think there still was technology in that tournament that some people aren't considering.  Synthetic lanes and an updated lane machine, instead of a spray bottle and squeegee.  So as I saw it taking away ALL technology would go back to where accurracy was greater than power.  In the "old days" in which they were trying to re-create, not only where the lanes MUCH softer than synthetic but the bowling balls themselves were MUCH harder than todays' plastic balls.  So with that combination "crankers" weren't able to get the ball to skid through the first 20ft of the lane.

JessN16

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Re: Name a Pro Bowler that would.....
« Reply #70 on: June 05, 2009, 11:52:31 AM »
I would think a lot of the older balls would have been softer -- from some of the Yellow Dot/Gold Dot balls to the Roto Grip UC line that had a hard time punching 68 on a durometer. The old Blue Dots were a lot harder, though.

Still, the crankers could use harder balls to their advantage -- i.e., getting through the front part of the lane, and/or to overcome the effects of bowling on natural wood. So I guess even back then, ball tech was an issue.

The problem with tech reversion in the here and now is that we can limit ball tech but we can't go ripping up synthetic lane beds. Some of our current technology is completely irreversible. I think discussions of who could be successful, from today's game, need to be framed in that context -- especially since most of these guys aren't old enough to have ever bowled in the "old" era to get a baseline measurement of how they'd perform on it.

I came up in a house that still has 10 wood lanes, telescores and above-ground returns, and until a few years ago still oiled the lanes with a bug sprayer. They've since upgraded to a "state of the art" Century 100 machine.

Jess

Sean John 369

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Re: Name a Pro Bowler that would.....
« Reply #71 on: June 05, 2009, 12:03:25 PM »
It's hard to say.  A lot of the top guys on tour were around 10 to 20 years ago and have grown with the game.  Technology or not, it still takes skill.  If it were all about the technology, we all would be on tour competing with the best.  I know plenty of "Ball Whores" for lack of a better term that show up to league with 8 balls and barely break 600.
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Dan Belcher

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Re: Name a Pro Bowler that would.....
« Reply #72 on: June 05, 2009, 02:22:18 PM »
I get what you're trying to say NoseofRI, but I have to call out this one quote:
quote:
Did you pay attention at ALL to the plastic ball tournament?  Look at the top 8, I believe 7 were VERY HIGH Rev players and Pete Weber who's unique roll creates carry.
I also noticed during the telecast and watching the streaming video of match play that these guys were all pretty darn accurate!  According to the CATS numbers, PDW never missed by more than 1 board left or right of his target the entire first match on TV if I remember correctly.  It's not like these guys were swinging it out wide one shot and tugging it left a mile the next -- they just had more room to hit the pocket and carry because of the extra backend angle and reduced deflection.  They were almost as accurate as the lower rev guys, they just had a larger pocket to hit and still carry.  (Low rev guy goes 4 pin if he gets it a pinch high, the high rev guy trips that same 4 pin out on the same kind of hit, you know?)

It's hard to say how most of today's bowlers would have done on older wood lanes with unpredictable oil, etc. since their styles were directly influenced by what technology they had to work with.  If you just took today's bowlers and had them grow up 30-40 years earlier, they would probably all be using stretched spans with lots of reverse in the thumbhole still, for example.  So the original question in this thread is basically impossible to answer since there's just too many variables and too many ways to approach it.

chipmunkbowler

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Re: Name a Pro Bowler that would.....
« Reply #73 on: June 07, 2009, 05:57:56 AM »
mark roth... he would be tearing those pins to peaces by now but because of his power it's tough to control it with high performance bowling balls that used to be robert smiths problem