Post by: BrianCRX90 on March 27, 2010, 08:51:39 AM
This proves how this elite field in the PBA is way ahead of it's time to the bowlers back in the 70's using plastic balls.
Post by: RandyO on March 27, 2010, 05:30:27 PM
Guys were averaging over 230 on walled up wood lanes back in the 1960''s using pancake cored hard rubber balls. None of them were hi-rev high speed players. The ball cores and surfaces had some effect but the lanes & back-ends prevalent in that era did not favor speed. It''s possible that a two-hander of the Belmonte caliber might have pulled it off - but there were none then so we''ll never know.
Regardless of the lanes or balls - given enough games to minimize the impact of flukes & bad breaks better bowlers will always dominate.
One thing is certain - it will be harder to make the specious argument that "Resin made Walter Ray Williams" now that he''s averaged 240 during the plastic ball tournament.
Edited on 3/27/2010 5:32 PM
Edited on 3/27/2010 5:45 PM
Post by: shelley on March 27, 2010, 06:37:48 PM
quote:
I realize it's a "modified pattern" but still this is crazy.
This is the only sentence in the post that is really useful. Why didn't PA use plastic last week when he struggled? Because it simply wouldn't have given him the hook that resin did. He could point it off the corner but that's pretty much all he could do because of the oil volumes.
Why does resin hit harder than plastic? Because of the core, not because of the coverstock. If you can get the same kinds of angles with plastic, you're going to get high scores.
SH
Post by: charlest on March 27, 2010, 06:59:07 PM
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Post by: kidlost2000 on March 27, 2010, 07:06:27 PM
Trust me they can't do this week in and week out on tour with the regular oil patterns used other wise they would all throw plastic.
Heavy oil and plastic equal low scores and spares.
Little oil and plastic equals easy scores.
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" men lie, women lie, numbers don't "
Post by: JessN16 on March 27, 2010, 09:47:49 PM
quote:
calm down already....this just in, these guys are good...and with the lower volumes being used its not rocket science on how these guys are scoring...but sure, go ahead and only take plastic to a tourny with the normal shark pattern out and see how you do..
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John "Steven" Parry...The Lane 1 rocket surgeon officially sponsored by Kool-aid and M&Ms....
Flip it around -- if you strip all the oil off the lane, you won't score with resin. What this week did was prove, once and for all, that's it's the walls and not the balls that are the "problem" with bowling.
I wish we would have seen plastic this week on one of the current patterns, but that's not what the PBA is trying to accomplish here. They're trying to hoodwink people into thinking this is real plastic on real PBA conditions when it's something completely different. They're too scared to leave the current patterns down (especially Shark) because they know if you did that, scores would be off 40-60 pins from what they were this week and casual fans who watch on Sunday wouldn't know the difference.
Jess
Post by: Dave_in_Rio_Rancho on March 28, 2010, 12:41:58 PM
As has been pointed out it is about release consistency, angle, and deflection of the ball at impact. If resin doesn't do it on your conditions, you have the wrong ball in your hands.
Post by: RandyO on March 28, 2010, 02:01:21 PM
Watching Walter Ray throw shot after shot in the hole AND playing left of 10 AND shooting 280 using plastic should shut up some of his detractors.
First two games of the telecast have been quite informative. I think they should throw plastic every week on 4 or 5 modified patterns.
Post by: Dave_in_Rio_Rancho on March 28, 2010, 02:55:15 PM
So, what would you rather watch - todays match - or some pro beating another pro 197 to 157?
Post by: RandyO on March 28, 2010, 02:57:43 PM
Post by: Juggernaut on March 28, 2010, 03:20:08 PM
Good shots were expected to carry, AND MOST DID, while bad shote were not expected to do so. The guys with revs got away with a couple, but power will do that sometimes, that's what Mark Roth was all about back in the day.
Now that EVERYBODY sees scores can be shot with plastic, CAN WE PLEASE GO BACK TO THEM?
Everybody heard them say that plastics are more stable, change the shot less, and allow more consistency. Aren't these good things?
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Post by: Rileybowler on March 28, 2010, 03:24:03 PM
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Carl
Bless the LORD o my soul and all that is within me bless his holy name
Post by: Photoc on March 28, 2010, 03:50:40 PM
quote:
How about that final match! It was just like the 60's & 70's. No matter how many revs you throw - speed kills!! You just couldn't rely on carry with high speed back in the good 'ol days. Too many ring tens and the occasional stone 7.
This makes no sense. They TIED! One throwing 16.5mph and one throwing 21.7mph and you say speed kills? It seems to me, that speed had nothing to do with it when the final match is a TIE at 247....did I mention they tied and there was a 5+ mph difference in speed?
Post by: jbuzz31 on March 28, 2010, 04:06:59 PM
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Ive Eaten From The Insane Root That Imprisons Reason
Post by: kidlost2000 on March 28, 2010, 04:11:00 PM
This changes nothing. They are pros, they are consistent. If you give them an easy shot, they will score with anything. They would not score that well on regular PBA patterns with plastic in their hands. They would average closer to 190-200.
It would lower scores.
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" men lie, women lie, numbers don't "
Post by: RandyO on March 28, 2010, 05:26:50 PM
Post by: completebowler on March 28, 2010, 05:40:12 PM
quote:
Wow pros score on a walled up shot with plastic.
This changes nothing. They are pros, they are consistent. If you give them an easy shot, they will score with anything. They would not score that well on regular PBA patterns with plastic in their hands. They would average closer to 190-200.
It would lower scores.
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" men lie, women lie, numbers don't "
They wouldn't score like they did today on your THS with plastic. It isn't about the balls it is about the pattern.
Go take your plastic ball to league and try throwing it to the pocket on a fresh pattern. Then try it on what they were bowling on.
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Post by: Dave_in_Rio_Rancho on March 28, 2010, 06:29:31 PM
Go take your plastic ball to league and try throwing it to the pocket on a fresh pattern. Then try it on what they were bowling on."
I did that one night when I couldn't find the line - shot a 201 with my spare ball. Wondered if I should give away the rest of the balls in the bag but they are too much fun to throw.
Come to that, I'm not even counting the 240 I shot with a house ball when I stated I could score better with a house ball and someone took me up on it - LOL Now if I could just recapture that moment....... I will admit to being tempted to buy that nicked and scarred POS house ball on the spot, and throw everything I brought in the river.
Post by: DP3 on March 28, 2010, 07:29:12 PM
Post by: Dave_in_Rio_Rancho on March 28, 2010, 07:57:50 PM
If a pattern gives you 2-3 boards down the lane to go flush, and the balls are not changing the pattern every 15 minutes, what makes you people think a professional bowler can't hit that same spot over and over again with the same revolutions? LOL. Pretty simple formula to why scores were high if you ask me."
I don't disagree with you - the thing is, with all the house hacks throwing heavy oil balls on THS, you can often throw a plastic ball right through the toast - this when your mildest resin is starting to see over under hell and you are already standing 40.
Post by: rvmark on March 29, 2010, 08:10:22 AM
Mark
Post by: dizzyfugu on March 29, 2010, 08:16:45 AM
quote:
Flip it around -- if you strip all the oil off the lane, you won't score with resin. What this week did was prove, once and for all, that's it's the walls and not the balls that are the "problem" with bowling.
Very good, totally agree. Play a lane with (literally) no oil at all, and then you will understand why being able to play straight on purpose and being exact is a vital asset that sets apart "good" players from those who rely on the wall.
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Post by: trash heap on March 29, 2010, 10:13:06 AM
quote:
Does make you wonder what the point of carrying 6 balls to a tournament.
This is the point I have been making. Bowling does NOT need this High Tech Garbage that is being fed to us. This week should prove that. Watching those matches knowing that the ball was taken out of the equation made it exciting. It was about those who performed the best, not those who made the correct line or ball change.
High End equipment is only around because of the oil. So we take all of our crap with us for this possible condition and those specific scenarios. This sport could cost a lot less to a bowler.
This game was made very complicated. In its simple form, I see it at its best.
I think the PBA needs to expand this type of tournament to now twice a year.
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Always the last one to POST!
Post by: Tondo on March 30, 2010, 02:40:02 AM
quote:
High End equipment is only around because of the oil
Sorry it is the other way around. Oil companies are always playing catch up with the newer more aggressive covers stocks. They are working on improving surface tension which helps the oil hold up.
Post by: Tondo on March 30, 2010, 02:46:34 AM
quote:
Wow pros score on a walled up shot with plastic.
Not walled. I bet 5 people who post here could not average 220 on what they bowled on Sunday.
You guys have to realize the PBA put out a pattern similar in volumn to what was put out in 70's.
Post by: Dave_in_Rio_Rancho on March 30, 2010, 12:55:12 PM
Post by: ImakeA2srun on April 02, 2010, 02:02:04 PM
Post by: RandyO on April 02, 2010, 03:56:21 PM
Excuse me??? High average in the San Francisco Bay area back around 1969-1971 was in the low 230''s. I believe Steve Stevens did it once, maybe twice. I believe his doubles partner Jon Eash was pretty darned close to the 230 level also. There may have been others - Mal Acosta I think, but not sure about Mal - although he did win 4 PBA titles later on. I used to keep score for that scratch league. The house was your typical Brunswick house with very "blocked" lanes. As a 15 year old kid I was carrying 195 in that house and around 160 in another house with a more normal shot.
So - I have no reason to lie to make a point and I don''t do crack.
Your apology is accepted if you''re man enough to offer one.
Edited on 4/2/2010 3:58 PM
Post by: Tondo on April 04, 2010, 10:24:36 PM
quote:
Nothing is very similar to the 70s - back then the lanes were buffed polyurethane coated wood - dog gone nearly needed a microscope to see the track on a new ball
Reread my 2nd post moron. I NEVER said anything about the lane surface. Just the VOLUMNS of OIL were similar.
Post by: kidlost2000 on April 05, 2010, 06:24:08 AM
I may or may not average 220 on what they bowled on for the tournament but I know they wouldn't average that on the real PBA oil patterns using plastic. Put out a long flat oil pattern and watch the scores.
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" men lie, women lie, numbers don't "
Post by: ImakeA2srun on April 06, 2010, 02:12:48 PM
Post by: ImakeA2srun on April 06, 2010, 02:14:09 PM
Post by: Dave_in_Rio_Rancho on April 06, 2010, 04:15:53 PM
quote:
Nothing is very similar to the 70s - back then the lanes were buffed polyurethane coated wood - dog gone nearly needed a microscope to see the track on a new ball
Reread my 2nd post moron. I NEVER said anything about the lane surface. Just the VOLUMNS of OIL were similar."
So, they were using a thimble full of oil per lane, like the 70s? The visual of the lane oil they showed on TV looked like "a little more" than that
Post by: Crankenstein300 on April 06, 2010, 05:09:50 PM
There were just as big of walls around in the 70's, just not as prevailent. Frankly, if you are good, you can strike all day with whatever.
Post by: ImakeA2srun on April 11, 2010, 06:55:14 PM
Post by: Crankenstein300 on April 11, 2010, 07:12:27 PM
I stand by my assessment. If you are good, you can strike with anything.
Post by: completebowler on April 11, 2010, 08:05:03 PM
quote:
Hardly. The shot is an obvious wall but it's not like the entire house is 220+. Last time I checked there were less than a handful of 230 averages in this house. And yes there is a guy in the high 220s with a beat up blue pearl Hammer.
I stand by my assessment. If you are good, you can strike with anything.
Yep. Repeating your shot is basically the key no matter what you are throwing. My plastic is a XXXL and when they are scorched I sometimes grab it and play around. If my mechanics are pure I will beat the hell out of the pocket, which is what the pros have done the last 2 plastic ball tournaments.
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WALLED LAKE MI