BallReviews
General Category => PBA => Topic started by: no300tj on December 23, 2012, 03:52:13 PM
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Ok, I know I'm getting older and can't see as well as I used to, but was Rash using a Black Pearl Rhino for his spare ball? I had one of those and it sure looked familiar.
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Yes you're exactly right. It is a black pearl Rhino. He was using it for spares when he won the T o C last season as well.
http://www.123bowl.com/ball.cfm?ballid=975
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I'd like the t zone to be re-labeled a rhino...
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While I was still at Brunswick that conversation came up and most tended to feel it was a name from the past that no one would remember or care about
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Make a new Rhino line to replace the Karma series. Great price point and for those who dont remember its a new line. Super Rhino, Charging Rhino, Brute Rhino, Angry Rhino, Rhino Rev'd ect. It would be endless options for the price point vs just karma solid, pearl, and pink black. Worst case scenario is Rhino III-d
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Didn't they have a Rhino Pro Brute once? Anyway I think now would be a great time to reintroduce the legendary Rhino series back to the Brunswick line. I'd like to a chance to throw the Rhino RE Indigo since I've never had one!
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I remember the Rhino Pro line. Back then, that was THE ball to have and shot my first ever 200 game with it in juniors. If they could reintroduce the Rhino or even the Rhino Pro lines with some updated covers and/or tweak the lightbulb cores, it could be killer on the lanes.
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Bowling ball do not care or target the older generation bowlers...they are trying to interest the new bowlers, those are the ones that are less interested in performance and more about colors & cool names...Rhino does not fall into that category
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Great point. You can argue Karma doesn't either. Slingshot.....ehhh. Misfit and Reckless ect I see where they are going. Maybe Brunswick will rename the Karma/Slingshot line before too long. Colors are there, names I'd say not so much.
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Bowling ball do not care or target the older generation bowlers...they are trying to interest the new bowlers, those are the ones that are less interested in performance and more about colors & cool names...Rhino does not fall into that category
I tend to disagree.
Some of the best balls were from older generation balls thrown by older generation bowlers that new bowlers want or wish they had. Case in point: Why was everyone throwing their money at the Storm Natural when Ciminelli was throwing it? Answer: Urethane. That is why people were stomping their feet, hoping that Hammer would re-release the Blue Hammer (which, coverstock and core notwithstanding, they did).
A teammate of mine has 3 of the hardest hooking balls around in his bag: Original Black Widow, Doom, and a Nano. Yet more times than not, he is pulling out his Gold Rhino Pro, because after the first half game when the other 3 balls pitch up too early, that ball stays consistent for him. Outside the fact that no other recent ball (recent being less than 5 years) looks like it, all of the newer bowlers have been asking what that ball is and where he got it from; then they are amazed that it is a near 20 year old ball.
Same reason why I still use my Optyx Formula 1, and keep my Blue and Blue Pearl hammers in my joey, because while they may be older balls, they can still wipe the floor with newer balls when those newer bowlers are standing in front of the ball return and lofting while I'm 20 boards right and stroking.
In short, it isn't about ball name, it's about ball performance, and if it performs well, people will want to buy it.
BL.
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Well, good to know i wasn't seeing things. Back in the day, i loved that ball. To find one now, after aging for 20 years would be fantastic. It was a hard urethane then. Time alone would make it harder. Great for dry lanes. As far as i can tell, the rhino name travels in small circles. Most younger bowlers wouldn't know the name. The classic Brunswick ball reaction seems to be unwanted these days. Even they are making flippier balls. Thanks for the input.
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Again you have your opinion....do you really think that many rethink bowling balls are sold overall? NO...
You are basing off a limited perspective but I guess I don't know much in my position...I only see sales and know what sells...I guess they should bring back Rhinos and sell less...or maybe even the Gold Rhino Pro....
The market that is buying the lower end products are lower average as well the recreational...yes to an extent the name is irrelevant but in Brunswick's position, they are not going to go backwards because of a few older players that would probably end up complaining about there's too much of a certain color in the cover...
I'll give ya another example...the colors of the Intense Inferno were intended for a mid to lower price bowling ball...we had higher average pro shops in for a meeting...they saw that color and ranted about how great that would be for a higher end performance ball...Billy O tried to explain the colors would not look right going down the lane to higher average players...the marketing dept bought into and the ball sold horribly....
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I'm not crazy about some of the colors on todays stuff that started getting really popular on every Track release and faded into all other manufactures.
I prefer the darker colors myself. It is easier to read the ball on the lane a lot easier. Had the same problem with the Morich equipment and some of the labels with the really big writing all over the ball.
There is an interview with Parker Bohn talking about the same thing. He had some bowling balls that because of how the colors were, looked funny on the lanes and would redrill another of the same ball to have a better look.
Color is very big in shelf appeal. Shiny is very big in shelf appeal. Name can be a bonus.
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Let me preface this by saying that I carry a urethane ball that I consider a valuable part of my arsenal, albeit a very limited condition ball.
Here is the problem with pining for old balls. We arent playing the game on 24 foot patterns using 15 ml of low viscosity oil anymore. Everything about the oils including most importantly the volume used has changed dramatically since the introduction of the resin ball.
Heck, going back even further, I once shot 793, 763 back to back playing 4th arrow with a yellow dot ( thats a plastic ball for you young guys ), but I am not yearning for a remake of it. It would be totally helpless on almost any pattern today with the high viscosity oils.
Urethane makes a great spare ball, better than plastic for me. It even has a place as a condition specific strike ball.
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I am in the opinion that the rhino line is one of the best ever produced. I still throw my teal rhino pro, and love it. I play straight up 10 with it and watch it plow the pocket.
The one ball i do miss was blue rhino pro LE. The ball was a tank and wouldlove to see it come back.
But if there was oneline that i loved, it was the zones. Ihad the red alert and still have and throw my black ice. The balls worked multiple lines and played well.
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The sales gimmick about todays new oils ect is just that, a gimmick. Most bowlers are throwing bowling balls that are too aggressive and end up hurting the bowler after a game. Many of todays weaker bowling balls are far better for most bowlers over a three game set.
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Again you have your opinion....do you really think that many rethink bowling balls are sold overall? NO...
You are basing off a limited perspective but I guess I don't know much in my position...I only see sales and know what sells...I guess they should bring back Rhinos and sell less...or maybe even the Gold Rhino Pro....
The market that is buying the lower end products are lower average as well the recreational...yes to an extent the name is irrelevant but in Brunswick's position, they are not going to go backwards because of a few older players that would probably end up complaining about there's too much of a certain color in the cover...
I'll give ya another example...the colors of the Intense Inferno were intended for a mid to lower price bowling ball...we had higher average pro shops in for a meeting...they saw that color and ranted about how great that would be for a higher end performance ball...Billy O tried to explain the colors would not look right going down the lane to higher average players...the marketing dept bought into and the ball sold horribly....
Umm.. The Gold Rhino Pro was the last in the Rhino line of High Performance balls. IIRc, it went with the original Blue Rhino and Black Rhino, which both were Urethane, then came the Purple Rhino Pro, Steel Rhino Pro, Teal Rhino Pro, then Gold Rhino Pro, which were all reactive resin. These are listed in levels of least hooking to hardest hooking. Each of the resin balls, along with Ebonite's reactive resin line stomped all over Faball, as they were late in the game and stuck to Urethane (They put out a Hammer 'Reactive', but it was too late as Ceramicore came into play by Columbia).
As far as cover goes, it wasn't just about the colour of the ball. The performance of the ball is what made these as good as they are, even to this day. Even people who ask about my Optyx think that it is a plastic ball, when it is a hard-hooking resin ball. They then finally believe me when they see me swing the ball from 13 out to 6 and watch it hit harder than a truck.
The colour of the ball is just the eye candy. The coverstock, ball motion, and reaction on the lanes (and yes, even in conditions from the early - mid 90s to today) makes equipment made back then sought after. We just can't find that type of performance in today's gear.
The sales gimmick about todays new oils ect is just that, a gimmick. Most bowlers are throwing bowling balls that are too aggressive and end up hurting the bowler after a game. Many of todays weaker bowling balls are far better for most bowlers over a three game set.
Agreed. I'd encourage any of you to look at the last 2 collegiate tournaments on BowlTV's youtube page. Look at how a lot of the men were lining up in front of the ball return, lofting the ball, and swinging from 23 to 12 and hoping it would stay right of the head pin. We all are not a Fagan, Mika, or Osku, who can loft the ball 10 feet to kill the hook. That will kill a rotator cuff or bicep easily. I kept wondering when some of them were finally going to ball down. with the exception of a few bowlers, most did not.
In a lot of cases, unless you can consistently control how your ball is rolling on the lane (and lofting and ball speed is not as consistent as people think it is), killing the 'dart and dive' hook, going down to a weaker ball, and playing a tighter line will get better results on the scoreboard, as well as physically save your game.
BL.
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Thank you for the history lesson...I'm not debating ball reaction with you I'm debating marketing (as I think I'm pretty good with understanding ball reaction & motion) but none of what you posted is relevant. How many sports such as tennis or golf facilitate the same tools, technology based as they did almost 20 yrs ago? It is still the operator as well as the mentality of said operator. Bowlers for the most part do NOT understand 'hook' or what constitutes 'hook' or understanding proper angles...it is the new driver theory....it's new and the ball will go farther...but in what direction and will they be able to find their golf ball.
Back to the OP...re-releasing the Rhino line would not increase sales or have an impact like so few of you may think...that does not mean PK-17 which was on the original Sapphire Zone or PK-18 on the original Danger Zone is not still a relevant coverstock or ball reaction as it is and still used.
If you are smart enough to use perceived weaker or older bowling balls and still competing, then cudos to you for being smart enough to recognize it. If you eliminate built in friction in most conditions then reaction differences show up...
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Let's also keep the actual bowling environment in mind here. I probably own 15 bowling balls, and I can make all of them work from just about anywhere on the lane on my house shot because...it's a house shot. So, if all of them look similar on the house shot, why do I own so many? Well, part of it is because I'm a ball whore, but the more important part is that tougher conditions very quickly illustrate the differences in those balls. So, sure, you can pull out old Rhino Pros, X-Caliburs, Quakes, etc., etc., etc., and wreck most house shots. But are you going to be able to take those balls out of your home house and wreck shop with them on different lane surfaces, different oil patterns, etc.? My guess is not often. I have lots of love and respect for the old stuff. Hell, I started bowling during urethane days. Still, the newer tech offers new advantages, and, like JustRico said, very few bowlers want classic technology. They want the latest and greatest. That's what sells!
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I realize that the lastest and greatest is what sells. BUT, if the older technology was marketed correctly, and the younger bowlers were made aware of the possibilities of it, i think it would work.
I have worked with a few young kids who did not have the training of someone who learned simplistic play. All of them play the big swing. But when i had the house put out a flooded shot, not one of them could hit over 200. The only reason i saw this is that if these kids had learned the basics, the older equipment would work.
This is line would allow to bring these older balls back and have them be profitable for the companies.
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Maybe, but look at some of the posts around this site. People continually rant when companies re-use covers or cores without significantly discounting the sale price. I've seen people jump all over Hammer, Brunswick, Storm, and others for that practice. Now, people who know bowling know that the companies do that because they've found proven winners. Still, people on here see it as double-dipping. Now, as a bowling enthusiast Web site, we should be the ones who know better. Imagine how that plays to the completely clueless bowlers of the world.
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Bowlingball.com did re-releases on several Brunswick/Quantum balls with minimal success. Its no doubt a small market. There has been no shortage of releases using pk17 or pk18 covers over the years. It doesnt have to say Rhino to be close to the same.
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Absolutely right about house shots. Certainly dont need the latest greatest technology to score as high as your skill level allows. Additionally I dont think it is so much about technological advancements as it is surface deterioriation of resin balls. No matter how good your maintenance practices, resin balls become more urethane like over time, because they are urethane with a resin additive. The biggest reason the latest greatest ball works so well is the fresh shell.
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I realize that the lastest and greatest is what sells. BUT, if the older technology was marketed correctly, and the younger bowlers were made aware of the possibilities of it, i think it would work.
I have worked with a few young kids who did not have the training of someone who learned simplistic play. All of them play the big swing. But when i had the house put out a flooded shot, not one of them could hit over 200. The only reason i saw this is that if these kids had learned the basics, the older equipment would work.
This is line would allow to bring these older balls back and have them be profitable for the companies.
And this is exactly what I was alluding to. If anyone watched the Las Vegas Invitational and the other Collegiate tournament in Vegas, last week, you'd see how lost a lot of the bowlers were as the lanes broke down and how their scores went from moderately high (210 - 250) to the mid 150s - 180s. A lot of this because they have the latest balls, and did not know how to read the lanes well enough to note the change, and read how the ball is reacting. They changed themselves and their line to match what the ball was doing, instead of perhaps changing the ball to match what they normally would do, relative to the conditions on the lane. And that wasn't a normal THS; that was a modified Chameleon pattern, if I remember right.
I think about it this way. How much higher would their scores have been if they used a urethane ball, whether by Brunswick, Hammer, Columbia, or Storm when the lanes jumped? Or perhaps a a weaker ball that would cause them to square up?
That is what some of the older balls could offer, which would make it worth reviving some of the older lines, or even give them a refresh. The Rhino line would fit that. Columbia's U2 line fits it perfectly, as the U2 was a good ball for its time. Ebonite could do the same with the Thunderbolt, Crush, Nitro, or Gyro lines (they did with the Gyro pro in 2000, and it sold well).
I'm all for new gear and new technology, but sometimes new doesn't mean better, and also sometimes the future doesn't only mean new, but could mean dipping back into the past and making what was great then even better now. Doing that, you bring back those bowlers who scored well with that gear (like meeting an old friend after 15 years), and introducing new bowlers to that older but improved equipment so they can realize what made them so great. That in turn gives you so many more avenues for marketing, to both new and experienced bowlers.
BL.
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If they are truly dry depending on the line anything will hook including urethane. once again, a freeze Slingshot or anything else would have worked just as well. Scout is another option.
justrico has a great point, if the demand in the market was there the product would exist. Since most bowlers are not on those conditions then it doesn't make sense to make a ball that will be limited to a very small market and update it very often.
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I agree with Gene. I threw a lot of my dad's old equipment very well. But they are so limited on certain shots. Sure I did enjoy reading the post referring to the struggling kids. But I think that is more so a lack of versatity. Even being a two handed bowler, I learned a lot of tricksin which I was held back by my head. The reason the old stuff doesn't sell well anymore is because they don't have the backend power that the newer equipment does. However, some companies are bringing fback the old stuff.
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Whiny Paris Hilton voice on: "I just want a solid purple (color) pearl rhino pro! I want it for torched dry!" :'( :'(
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Umm.. The Gold Rhino Pro was the last in the Rhino line of High Performance balls. IIRc, it went with the original Blue Rhino and Black Rhino, which both were Urethane, then came the Purple Rhino Pro, Steel Rhino Pro, Teal Rhino Pro, then Gold Rhino Pro, which were all reactive resin. These are listed in levels of least hooking to hardest hooking. Each of the resin balls, along with Ebonite's reactive resin line stomped all over Faball, as they were late in the game and stuck to Urethane (They put out a Hammer 'Reactive', but it was too late as Ceramicore came into play by Columbia).
Were the RE Rhinos not considered high performance? They came out in later '93. They brought the Rhino's back in the late 90's as well, with some different pearlized versions and a Rhino Pro X for the 10th anniversary. I don't think those balls sold nearly as well as the initial releases though. I think the average league bowler just wants whatever is flashy. BR folks are on a different level of thinking. We want arsenals to combat a multitude of conditions, the typical bowler just wants to see the ball hook.
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What if Brunswick started making the rhinos and the zones in the karma line?