Author Topic: Regarding the U.S. Open's flat pattern... (Read 3664 times)

JessN16 · « **on:** February 27, 2011, 11:06:54 AM »

I watched the match play round on Thursday and then the two other televised slots, and something I still can't figure out is why there's such a prejudice toward trying to play that shot deep inside, with swing.

I realize I'm just a lowly league bowler, but I have bowled on the flat pattern many times and the only time I don't look like a total idiot is when I'm playing it straight and right of center, the way Duke, Mika and (on TV Thursday) O'Neill played it. But every time I'm either in a tournament that uses that shot, or see pros play it, most are trying to get left, left, left to chase the oil.

Once you've got an area almost completely burned in, does it not make more sense to use weaker equipment (plastic or urethane even) and go straight?

I just think the "classic" way to play it is an example of people doing something mostly because they've been told that's the way you do it. I think Duke and Mika, especially, proved that there at least exists an alternative way of playing the pattern.

Jess

Edited by JessN16 on 2/27/2011 at 8:07 PM

Russell · « **Reply #1 on:** February 27, 2011, 08:22:06 PM »

When your revrate is over 400, you can't just play the burn. The ball will burn up and go flat into the pocket all day long. If you migrate left you chase the oil in and try to create the "skid, hook, roll" reaction that you need to strike with resin. Most of the guys with lots of axis rotation and tilt will do this to keep their angles through the pins a little more shallow. If PDW plays the burn in and pinches one a little bit he's getting 4 through the middle, if he's playing deep he keeps his angle through the pins less drastic and keeps some of the big splits at bay.

On the flatter stuff it's all about not giving the pocket away, and keeping your ball from burning up in the midlane.

Little known fact: In Russian "Hope" and "Change" translate to "Tax" and "Spend"

JessN16 · « **Reply #2 on:** February 27, 2011, 08:42:29 PM »

What about the higher-rev guys moving to the RIGHT of the burn? Say, up 5 with something weak? I've heard of Machuga doing this (not sure of his rev rate) with some success in prior years. With the pattern at 42 feet, I would think you could still get something to come off the end of the pattern going at the pocket; it wouldn't be like the old 50-foot TOC pattern.

The other thing I think about in this case is watching Belmonte pull out that old clear "Team Storm" plastic ball he has and essentially point it at the 1-3 from off the corner. A guy with a high enough rev rate (assuming he was accurate enough) should be able to do that.

Basically, I say this because I would think at some point, it gets easier to do that than slide in the left lane, loft the gutter cap, try not to bounce the ball, and still hit what you're aiming at. And if the block is long enough and the guys on your cross are also high-rev players, you're eventually going to run out of oil even on the left side, no?

Jess

Russell wrote on 2/27/2011 9:22 PM:When your revrate is over 400, you can't just play the burn. The ball will burn up and go flat into the pocket all day long. If you migrate left you chase the oil in and try to create the "skid, hook, roll" reaction that you need to strike with resin. Most of the guys with lots of axis rotation and tilt will do this to keep their angles through the pins a little more shallow. If PDW plays the burn in and pinches one a little bit he's getting 4 through the middle, if he's playing deep he keeps his angle through the pins less drastic and keeps some of the big splits at bay.

On the flatter stuff it's all about not giving the pocket away, and keeping your ball from burning up in the midlane.

Little known fact: In Russian "Hope" and "Change" translate to "Tax" and "Spend"

Effybowler · « **Reply #3 on:** February 27, 2011, 08:50:24 PM »

Along with what was already said... Usually you try to maximize entry angle to get the best carry. However on this pattern, if you're not even sure your shot will get to the pocket, you want to minimize the possibilities of big splits when you do miss the pocket. To minimize your chances of the big splits you want to close down your entry angle, at least in my experience. How does this relate to playing farther left? This may not come across completely clear since I can't draw it out here, but I'll try. On a fresh flat pattern, your ball has the energy potential to make a certain amount of change in direction, measured in degrees. If your ball is moving pretty much straight down the boards, it will end up with a certain trajectory left through the pins. However, if you start farther left, and it makes the same total change in angle, its final angle through the pins will be less left than the first shot.

This is the strategy I use when I'm bowling on something that is not very scorable, especially when slightly errant shots will lead to missing the pocket. I'm a fairly low rev player, so I utilize my speed and axis rotation to make sure I can play the part of the lane that will let me shut down my entry angle, sometimes to the extent that I leave pocket 5 pins and I'm happy about it.

MrPerfect · « **Reply #4 on:** February 27, 2011, 08:50:55 PM »

Russell wrote on 2/27/2011 9:22 PM:
When your revrate is over 400, you can't just play the burn. The ball will burn up and go flat into the pocket all day long. If you migrate left you chase the oil in and try to create the "skid, hook, roll" reaction that you need to strike with resin. Most of the guys with lots of axis rotation and tilt will do this to keep their angles through the pins a little more shallow. If PDW plays the burn in and pinches one a little bit he's getting 4 through the middle, if he's playing deep he keeps his angle through the pins less drastic and keeps some of the big splits at bay.

On the flatter stuff it's all about not giving the pocket away, and keeping your ball from burning up in the midlane.

Little known fact: In Russian "Hope" and "Change" translate to "Tax" and "Spend"

Is it really that hard to take hand out of it? I understand the argument, but these guys are the best in the world...they should be able to manager their own rev rates to take advantage of a pattern. Also, it's been my personal experience it's easier to go down in revs than to go up.

Admittedly though, if you are bowling on the pattern and you see everyone having success playing the pattern a particular way...you'd be brave to play the lanes differently and risk falling behind the number.

Russell · « **Reply #5 on:** February 27, 2011, 08:56:31 PM »

I understand what you are saying, but these guys swings are built to be the most accurate when going left to right. The only time you will see Belmo playing up the outside is when there is some blend to allow the ball to start reading early. Most of these patterns don't have much volume outside of 5, so you can play straight and the ball will feed to the pocket. The US Open pattern has 50+ units of oil all the way across, so if you play up it, you better be perfect.

Some players can go straight up the lane, but they have to be very soft with their hands and have amazing angles through the front part of the lane. Guys like Mika, Voss, Duke, Walter, are the few off the top of my head that can do this.

Again I will draw your attention the angle of entry. If most of those guys go up the lane on something that long and flat, the ball will enter the pocket so steep they will never carry. I bowled the US Open in 2006, and I can assure you that there was absolutely NO shot outside of 8 all week.

The small X Factor to this is the topography of the lane. The lane surface itself has a touch of "memory" built into it that creates a (VERY) small amount of recovery to the right. By "recovery" I mean you can get a shot back that is maybe....MAYBE 1 board right of target down the lane. If you move to the right you give that up, as their balls tend to have more axis rotation and tilt, and it won't read that going up it.

I can completely understand where you're coming from, and I wish you could have seen Mike Fagan in match play throw a sanded Gamebreaker up 5 and had absolutely nothing. He would miss the head pin...go through the face...leave a 2/10...stuff a 4 pin. There was just no look out there and he was throwing an aggressive resin ball.

Little known fact: In Russian "Hope" and "Change" translate to "Tax" and "Spend"

Russell · « **Reply #6 on:** February 27, 2011, 09:01:36 PM »

You're right...but let's look at this from a realistic perspective. if Tommy Jones takes hand out of it and fudges it up 10, do you really think he's going to keep up with guys like Duke and Walter?...guys who make a living out of splitting boards? These guys can take hand out of it if they HAVE to, but they will never be as good as the straight players because their games aren't built for it. Just like Walter and Duke will never be able to go airborne and carry with them playing 7th arrow.

MrPerfect wrote on 2/27/2011 9:50 PM:

Russell wrote on 2/27/2011 9:22 PM:

When your revrate is over 400, you can't just play the burn. The ball will burn up and go flat into the pocket all day long. If you migrate left you chase the oil in and try to create the "skid, hook, roll" reaction that you need to strike with resin. Most of the guys with lots of axis rotation and tilt will do this to keep their angles through the pins a little more shallow. If PDW plays the burn in and pinches one a little bit he's getting 4 through the middle, if he's playing deep he keeps his angle through the pins less drastic and keeps some of the big splits at bay.

On the flatter stuff it's all about not giving the pocket away, and keeping your ball from burning up in the midlane.

Little known fact: In Russian "Hope" and "Change" translate to "Tax" and "Spend"

Is it really that hard to take hand out of it? I understand the argument, but these guys are the best in the world...they should be able to manager their own rev rates to take advantage of a pattern. Also, it's been my personal experience it's easier to go down in revs than to go up.

Admittedly though, if you are bowling on the pattern and you see everyone having success playing the pattern a particular way...you'd be brave to play the lanes differently and risk falling behind the number.

Little known fact: In Russian "Hope" and "Change" translate to "Tax" and "Spend"

Effybowler · « **Reply #7 on:** February 27, 2011, 09:07:29 PM »

Moving right of the burn? Where do you move after that doesn't work, a little left? At some point you run back into the burn. Then what? And if you're only a little bit right of the burn, say 2 boards right of where the block started at, and you miss? You have hook left and hold right...even more challenging than the oil just being flat.

As far as that being easier than being left and lofting the gutter...I have a friend here at school who is more comfortable in front of the ball return, left of 27 at the arrows than he is anywhere right of 10.

What it comes down to is that these guys are the best in the world. They would play right with weak equipment if that was what they thought -with their years and years of experience- would be the best option. The fact that so many people choose to play left and loft it shows that it is the best scoring route to go. It may not be the easiest to execute, but the scoring advantage makes up for it.

JessN16 wrote on 2/27/2011 9:42 PM:What about the higher-rev guys moving to the RIGHT of the burn? Say, up 5 with something weak? I've heard of Machuga doing this (not sure of his rev rate) with some success in prior years. With the pattern at 42 feet, I would think you could still get something to come off the end of the pattern going at the pocket; it wouldn't be like the old 50-foot TOC pattern.

The other thing I think about in this case is watching Belmonte pull out that old clear "Team Storm" plastic ball he has and essentially point it at the 1-3 from off the corner. A guy with a high enough rev rate (assuming he was accurate enough) should be able to do that.

Basically, I say this because I would think at some point, it gets easier to do that than slide in the left lane, loft the gutter cap, try not to bounce the ball, and still hit what you're aiming at. And if the block is long enough and the guys on your cross are also high-rev players, you're eventually going to run out of oil even on the left side, no?

Jess
Russell wrote on 2/27/2011 9:22 PM:When your revrate is over 400, you can't just play the burn. The ball will burn up and go flat into the pocket all day long. If you migrate left you chase the oil in and try to create the "skid, hook, roll" reaction that you need to strike with resin. Most of the guys with lots of axis rotation and tilt will do this to keep their angles through the pins a little more shallow. If PDW plays the burn in and pinches one a little bit he's getting 4 through the middle, if he's playing deep he keeps his angle through the pins less drastic and keeps some of the big splits at bay.

On the flatter stuff it's all about not giving the pocket away, and keeping your ball from burning up in the midlane.

Little known fact: In Russian "Hope" and "Change" translate to "Tax" and "Spend"

JessN16 · « **Reply #8 on:** February 27, 2011, 11:28:14 PM »

If the name of the game is to find some virgin oil, and you don't have the game to play 7th arrow with loft, the only oil left eventually is going to be outside. I wish I could remember the post from the old site where someone who was at the Open a couple of years ago talked about Machuga going up the 3 board for awhile.

As to when to stop going up 3, I would guess he was probably counting on the block ending and getting a re-oil before he ran back into the burn.

But I need to address your last sentence -- the best route this week (in terms of who made the finals) wasn't playing deep. Both Duke and Mika were around 10-15 at the arrows and trying to run it over the deep rangefinder at 10. Even TJ was straighter than I remember him being in awhile. Shafer was the only guy over Friday and Saturday who was really bending it, and he had NO room for error at all. Not that the other guys had a bunch of miss room, but Shafer was in a box. That just made what he did Friday that much more impressive to me. And he bowled really well in his loss to Mika, too.

Even on the Thursday night telecast, Duke was playing straight, and O'Neill said something Friday night about how playing deep was the wrong play for him.

The point of my original post was that, when I ask other people how they believe this pattern should be attacked, almost always do I get the same answer: start straight, then head left and keep going left. There doesn't seem to be much room for alternative strategies, but obviously Duke and Mika didn't follow the "textbook" way to play it.

Jess

Effybowler wrote on 2/27/2011 10:07 PM:Moving right of the burn? Where do you move after that doesn't work, a little left? At some point you run back into the burn. Then what? And if you're only a little bit right of the burn, say 2 boards right of where the block started at, and you miss? You have hook left and hold right...even more challenging than the oil just being flat.
As far as that being easier than being left and lofting the gutter...I have a friend here at school who is more comfortable in front of the ball return, left of 27 at the arrows than he is anywhere right of 10.

What it comes down to is that these guys are the best in the world. They would play right with weak equipment if that was what they thought -with their years and years of experience- would be the best option. The fact that so many people choose to play left and loft it shows that it is the best scoring route to go. It may not be the easiest to execute, but the scoring advantage makes up for it.

Russell · « **Reply #9 on:** February 28, 2011, 06:00:55 AM »

You're taking a one game match on a pair that they had 30 minutes to break down and equating it to the entire week. I watched on Xtra Frame and most of the week Mika was playing in...TJ was playing in....everyone was in except Duke, and he was playing about 18 to 14 downlane.

As the pattern got tougher and was stipped off more and more, the deep line became less and less appealing as the lanes were being broken down differently. On TV they break them down very differently, and try to create their own A game. During the week they can't do that in 10 minutes of practice.

I'm sure Machuga played up 3, the year I was there lots of guys were trying to play up the lane. The reality is that it's not an appealing line long term. Like I said, Fagan was playing up 5 and promptly went from 18th to 24th in the standings. It's about angle of entry and giving yourself the best chance for leaving something makeable when you miss. These guys have ball reps whose SOLE JOB is to analyze their ball reaction and give them the best chance to put their balls on the show.

Don't you think if there was a completely different line to play that between the two of them they would have figured it out?

JessN16 wrote on 2/28/2011 0:28 AM:
If the name of the game is to find some virgin oil, and you don't have the game to play 7th arrow with loft, the only oil left eventually is going to be outside. I wish I could remember the post from the old site where someone who was at the Open a couple of years ago talked about Machuga going up the 3 board for awhile.

As to when to stop going up 3, I would guess he was probably counting on the block ending and getting a re-oil before he ran back into the burn.

But I need to address your last sentence -- the best route this week (in terms of who made the finals) wasn't playing deep. Both Duke and Mika were around 10-15 at the arrows and trying to run it over the deep rangefinder at 10. Even TJ was straighter than I remember him being in awhile. Shafer was the only guy over Friday and Saturday who was really bending it, and he had NO room for error at all. Not that the other guys had a bunch of miss room, but Shafer was in a box. That just made what he did Friday that much more impressive to me. And he bowled really well in his loss to Mika, too.

Even on the Thursday night telecast, Duke was playing straight, and O'Neill said something Friday night about how playing deep was the wrong play for him.

The point of my original post was that, when I ask other people how they believe this pattern should be attacked, almost always do I get the same answer: start straight, then head left and keep going left. There doesn't seem to be much room for alternative strategies, but obviously Duke and Mika didn't follow the "textbook" way to play it.

Jess

Effybowler wrote on 2/27/2011 10:07 PM:
Moving right of the burn? Where do you move after that doesn't work, a little left? At some point you run back into the burn. Then what? And if you're only a little bit right of the burn, say 2 boards right of where the block started at, and you miss? You have hook left and hold right...even more challenging than the oil just being flat.

As far as that being easier than being left and lofting the gutter...I have a friend here at school who is more comfortable in front of the ball return, left of 27 at the arrows than he is anywhere right of 10.

What it comes down to is that these guys are the best in the world. They would play right with weak equipment if that was what they thought -with their years and years of experience- would be the best option. The fact that so many people choose to play left and loft it shows that it is the best scoring route to go. It may not be the easiest to execute, but the scoring advantage makes up for it.

Little known fact: In Russian "Hope" and "Change" translate to "Tax" and "Spend"

Russell · « **Reply #10 on:** February 28, 2011, 08:09:51 AM »

I have one comment that will end this debate....

If the US Open pattern would be better attacked going straight....

Why don't lefties dominate the tournament? Year after year the show is overrun with righthanders and matchplay is a bunch of guys that can hook the crap out of it. Mike Scroggins was the lone exception..but year in and year out no more than 1 or 2 lefties make match play.

If straighter is greater....they would dominate right?

Little known fact: In Russian "Hope" and "Change" translate to "Tax" and "Spend"

Xx 12 X 300 xX · « **Reply #11 on:** February 28, 2011, 08:48:37 AM »

To add to that, some of the great straight specialists do not even bowl this tournament. You can take a quick look at the regular PBA tour and Senior tour over the years and pick out the straight specialists like Dale and Dave Traber, etc. These type of players do not bowl the US Open for a reason. Even Walter Ray Williams, a straight specialist can not play them straight. He can bowl well enough to cash, but will never win on this US Open pattern.

Author Topic: Regarding the U.S. Open's flat pattern... (Read 3664 times)

JessN16

Regarding the U.S. Open's flat pattern...

Russell

Re: Regarding the U.S. Open's flat pattern...

JessN16

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Effybowler

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MrPerfect

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Russell

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Russell

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Effybowler

Re: Regarding the U.S. Open's flat pattern...

JessN16

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Russell

Re: Regarding the U.S. Open's flat pattern...

Russell

Re: Regarding the U.S. Open's flat pattern...

Xx 12 X 300 xX

Re: Regarding the U.S. Open's flat pattern...