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Author Topic: "Pros work the inside of the ball" comment  (Read 13833 times)

lefty50

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"Pros work the inside of the ball" comment
« on: November 03, 2008, 01:55:27 AM »
Would anyone care to comment on Randy Pedersen's comment Sunday re: "Amateurs work the outside of the ball... pros work the inside of the ball". I'd like to hear a little more about what he was really getting at...?
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scotts33

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Re: "Pros work the inside of the ball" comment
« Reply #46 on: November 10, 2008, 11:10:44 AM »
So how many think...that is you have an axis point of over say 5.25" or more you are working the "inside of the ball"?  I am unsure of the up/down component but I'd guess more up.
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Edited on 11/10/2008 12:11 PM
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Dan Belcher

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Re: "Pros work the inside of the ball" comment
« Reply #47 on: November 10, 2008, 11:17:28 AM »
Pete Weber's PAP is 6" straight across, and his fingers are definately far underneath and on the inside part of the ball just before the release.  Your axis does not indicate exactly how you throw the ball.
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los2003

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Re: "Pros work the inside of the ball" comment
« Reply #48 on: November 10, 2008, 11:19:50 AM »
it surely does not
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scotts33

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Re: "Pros work the inside of the ball" comment
« Reply #49 on: November 10, 2008, 11:25:08 AM »
OK...why doesn't your PAP indicate if you are staying more under the ball and therefore "working the inside of the ball"????  I need facts not comments that it "surely does not".

Give me some examples of pro's that have say less than 5.25" over and stay under the ball.  I am asking to understand NOT to start an arguement.
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Dan Belcher

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Re: "Pros work the inside of the ball" comment
« Reply #50 on: November 10, 2008, 11:33:53 AM »
Work filters won't let me check for sure, but I believe this site has some info on a few PBA bowlers' positive axis points.  See if that helps.

I think a good way to look at it is this:  your PAP tells you where your hand places the ball at the release point -- it doesn't tell you how it gets there.  My PAP stays almost exactly the same whether I am tumbling the ball end-over-end, or creating more axis tilt and spinning it down the lane more for length and backend angle.  My axis rotation and axis tilt can be different, but the center of my ball's track stays the same simply because that's where my hand is the moment I let go of the ball.
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scotts33

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Re: "Pros work the inside of the ball" comment
« Reply #51 on: November 10, 2008, 11:55:37 AM »
quote:
Work filters won't let me check for sure, but I believe this site has some info on a few PBA bowlers' positive axis points. See if that helps.


Thanks Dan!  

ALL of these guys except Jason Couch.......
 
PBA TECH TALK - Robert Smith
PBA TECH TALK - Chris Barnes
PBA TECH TALK - Jason Couch
PBA TECH TALK - Mika Koivuniemi
PBA TECH TALK - Walter Ray Williams Jr.
PBA TECH TALK - Norm Duke

........have a PAP of 5.25" over and some even more....most with an up component of their axis point.  So, I still have not seen too many that I think of "working the inside of the ball" with a PAP of less that 5.25" over.  

From brunswickinsider.com I see Sean Rash last year had a PAP of 4 7/8" over.  

I do think there is a correlation between bowlers that stay under it better and longer that are "working the inside of the ball"....at least that's the way I think of it.  

I would agree with you Dan....my PAP also does not change much even when changing releases.  


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BuzzsawCrazy

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Re: "Pros work the inside of the ball" comment
« Reply #52 on: November 10, 2008, 02:18:39 PM »
I think Ken Simard by far works the inside of the ball the most out of all the pros on tour other than maybe my man Robert Smith!!!
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mrbowlingnut

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Re: "Pros work the inside of the ball" comment
« Reply #53 on: November 10, 2008, 02:47:57 PM »
Ok try this in practice too see if you know how to work the inside of the ball or not???

Do 1 step drills and practice keeping your hand beneath the ball and fingers to towards your leg, then throw through the ball not around it at all. It will feel inside out but watch the tilt pick way up and the roll become much more defined.

Next use your normal release and see if the ball hooks more or less, when you do this with 1 steps the difference is night and day.

If you are unable to do 1 steps for timing reasons, use a much slower approach and still use the method above. Remember go through the ball not spinning it and the weight block will do all the work. Try to get to 7 o'clock which is pretty dang hard to be honest but even a 6 o'clock release will work wonders.

I subbed directly behind David Haynes last night, he was in a PBA experience league. The man is just simply amazing to watch him work the inside of the ball, he has a huge back swing with his hand turned inside out like Tommy Jones. I just sat and watched him throw shot after shot in the hole but he does change his tilt and ball speed alot more than you would think.
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scotts33

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Re: "Pros work the inside of the ball" comment
« Reply #54 on: November 10, 2008, 10:28:52 PM »
So to me this is one of the most interesting topics to come up on this website in months and not many responses.....so I'll state there IS a definite correlation between a bowlers PAP and "working the inside of the ball".  I have seen no facts to refute otherwise.  Please respond so we can see more facts if you know of any.

Thanks!


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mrbowlingnut

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Re: "Pros work the inside of the ball" comment
« Reply #55 on: November 11, 2008, 10:32:16 AM »

Great answer here I was just trying to show a method to get the inside feel without blowing out an elbow or something stupid like that.

Do not try to get you hand turned inside out without being very flexible and having a power type of game, you can hurt yourself very easy. Now with that being said getting inside and under the ball more will increase the effect that the weight block causes on ball motion.

I was using a 6-30 release last night it came alittle easier this week than last, so practice in just a week of Randy's comment has come around for me at least.

I shot 247,236,227 for me a great night, just keeping my hand in and under helps keep me from the elbow flying around which is loss of leverage and spinning the ball.

Does this effect my pap???? I noticed wider flare separations but tracking was almost same spots as any other day. I probably gained 3/4 on inch of extra flare but I believe my pap of 5 3/8 and 3/8 up is pretty much the same.

IMO it has made me at least more consistent with ball roll and power has increased slightly.











quote:
Power players who load up at the top of the swing are ones you will notice the inside working of the ball.  Most of the have extreme inside elbow and hands.  

Your stroker variety are going to be more straighter in the middle of the ball.  Guys like Duke, WRW etc. are more in the middle of the ball with their hand, Duke especially with his fingers pointing away towards the back wall behind him.  WRW doesn't really have too much of an elbow/hand moving inside the ball.  If you watch him bowl alot, he has his hand on the side of the ball to start.  It's damn near impossible to get your hand inside the ball, when it's outside in the set up.

If your a power player who wants to create more leverage and revs it's very good to get your hand inside of the ball.  Your a player that doesn't really use to much in hand position changes and being inside too much of the ball limits alot of players with weaker hands when it comes to different releases.  

If your a player that likes to set their hand up in their stance with the desired amount of axis rotation at the release point, working the inside of the ball might not be the best thing for you.  If your a player that likes to use alot of different types of old school hand positions, it's probably better to try to work more of the center or middle of the ball with your hand at the apex of the armswing.

Randy P has a love affair with guys who want to go coast to coast with the ball. It seems like it's something he always wanted to do, and he really loves to point out the power game.  The game that's on the other side of the spectrum has a different type of arm swing, a few different styles that he never really points out.  

The balls are so strong today, as long as you have a good quick clean release and you can do a few different things with the ball, the way you work the ball has minimal effect on your overall performance. You don't need the extreme open shoulders and open hand.  If that's how you do it, than so be it, but players do not need to run out and try to change their physical games to something so extreme.  If you notice the Vice poster, ALOT of those type players I'd consider higher rev power players.  

The extreme outside working of the ball, does have some use on lane conditions that are flat out burnt.  I don't see too many extreme outside ball workers on normal league nights, maybe some senior strokers and newer players to the game.



Edited on 11/10/2008 11:54 PM

Edited on 11/10/2008 11:56 PM

Edited on 11/10/2008 11:59 PM


Edited on 11/11/2008 11:34 AM
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janderson

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Re: "Pros work the inside of the ball" comment
« Reply #56 on: November 11, 2008, 11:55:36 AM »
Two things, (1): "Staying behind" the ball and "Staying under" the ball are two different things and neither have anything to do with "working the inside of the ball".

"Staying behind" the ball references the location of the fingers at the release point. If a bowler is "fully behind" or "up the back" of the ball, at the release point, the entire ball will be between the bowlers fingers and the foul line. Fingers are said to be at six o'clock.

"Staying under" the ball references the location of the fingers when the thumb exits the ball. If a bowler is "fully under" the ball at the release point, the entire ball will be between the bowlers fingers and the ceiling when the thumb exits. Fingers are said to be below the equator of the ball.

Position of the hand at the top of the back swing and from that point to the release points described above has nothing to do with the points described above. A bowler can come down from the top of the swing backwards (fingers first, thumb last) and rotate the wrist and fingers to either or both of the above positions at the release point.

Yes, working the inside of the ball will help promote staying under and staying up the back of the ball, but they in no way guarantee it. You can "work the inside of the ball" and rotate all the way around and over at the release to create a large amount of tilt, rotation, and revs.


Second (2): PAP location has nothing to do with "working the inside of the ball".

As previously stated by another poster, PAP is determined by hand position at the release. You can work the inside of the ball and be completely under and up the back at release or work the inside of the ball and be completely over and around the side (or beyond) at release.  Each extreme can (and most often will) produce a distinctly different PAP, both "working the inside" of the ball.

quote:
since no ones here agrees what he is talking about then I am really confused.


I disagree.  Many of the previous posters have simply gone out of their way to explain the same thing in different terms to make it easier for others to understand the concept. I've seen no disagreement on what Randy means. on edit: I suppose it is possible that I'm not seeing posts from people on my ignore list.


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Edited on 11/11/2008 12:56 PM
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