Author Topic: walter ray williams, jr. (Read 12535 times)

DON DRAPER · « **on:** August 30, 2008, 12:58:09 PM »

if there were any doubts about who the greatest bowler is i'd say they were answered this week at the world tenpin bowling association men's world championships. not only has walter ray won 44 pba national titles and been pba player of the year 6 times now he has also won the singles title and the masters title at the world tenpin bowling championships. the only major tournament he hasn't won is the pba's tournament of champions......even at the age of 48 i wouldn't count him out.

dw23 · « **Reply #46 on:** September 15, 2008, 12:58:00 AM »

quote:
It gave the weaker handed players the power of the stronger handed players without the hand. It did not help high rev players, it hurt them.

High rev players got more room to the right and more room to the left to strike with reactive resin. Before the PBA sport conditions came into play all of the high rev guys were hot on tour. Since the PBA sport conditions seems like tweeners and strokers have ruled. Pete and Tommy are the exceptions but they are accurate. All of the high rev guys on tour are trying to cut there rev rate.
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DW

rockerbowler18 · « **Reply #47 on:** September 15, 2008, 01:33:06 AM »

As far as a basic judgment is concerned, I'd have to say Walter. Everyone says that Earl was better and that Walter only has an advantage because of today's equipment, but they don't take into account the fact that not only can Walter use that equipment to his advantage, but it's used against him! He has to combat it! Also, he has a million more choices laid out in front of him than Earl did. WRW has to make a million decisions (ball change, different layout, different surface, try to build a shot by breaking down lanes, etc.) that Earl couldn't have even dreamed of because of the time period he bowled in.

An absolutely fabulous part of our history, which you cannot deduct from (and I'm not trying to) is Earl Anthony, and I wish no more than to uphold him to the esteemed position he has earned, but WRW is definitely the best of all time.

On a personal note, I think that Parker Bohn III ought to be considered somewhere in there (AT LEAST TOP 5), if only for the fact that I doubt anyone can tell me one person with more perfect textbook form and shotmaking skills than Parker.
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Righty
High rev rate (400-450 rpm)
Semi-high speed (16-17 mph)
Book average: 202

For a game based on the principles of science and math, bowling sure does have a bad habit of being illogical.

Maine Man · « **Reply #48 on:** September 15, 2008, 07:10:36 AM »

quote:
you know it's amazing how everyone seems to bring up the fact that it took walter ray longer to get 41 titles than earl anthony. is everyone aware that it took pete rose more at bats to reach 4,191 hits than it took ty cobb ? didn't hank aaron need more at bats to pass 714 home runs ? unless i'm mistaken, the record books only show the accomplishment achieved......not the length of the persons career.

GREG, that is flawed logic, and you know it. Here's an example for you: Craig Biggio vs. Ted Williams. Who is the better hitter all time? Of course it's Ted Williams hands down. But, if we use your logic and go purely by the stats, and not the length of time the stats were performed in, then Biggio is clearly the better player. I mean, Williams never reached 3,000 hits, but since Biggio reached that mark, he must be LEAGUES ahead of Ted Williams as a hitter (even though Biggio had over 3,000 more at bats than Ted). Give me a break, you HAVE to take into consideration the time frame a player dominated, it shows just how much better they were than their competition.

Actually Earl had 43 titles in 13 seasons, not 41. And like I said, it took him (WRW) now 27 years to tie Earl with 43 titles (and now has 44). Sorry, tying a guy in double the time does not mean you were the better player, it just means you started younger (remember Walter was only 17 when he started out on tour). Earl didn't even compete on tour until his 30's (his first title cam when he was 32). Walter Ray has won 36 titles since turning 32, so he is still 7 titles shy of Earl. Plus, if you take the same 13 year time span that Earl won his titles in, Walter has 33 titles in that span, or 10 less than Earl had. I bet if Earl had bowled since he was 17 on tour, he would have 65+ titles right now, and there would be no debate. Walter has been a great player and the greatest right handed bowler of all time, but no way is he even close to Earl Anthony, no way.
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MainePBA
"I'd rather be a conservative nut job than a liberal with no nuts and no job."

DON DRAPER · « **Reply #49 on:** September 15, 2008, 07:57:31 PM »

what's wrong with my logic that the stats are what matters ? when ty cobb had 4,191 hits and a lifetime batting average of .367 and some 50 other major league records you would be hard pressed to name a more worthy candidate for the greatest baseball player of all time. he is miles ahead of the two players you named( including ted williams ).

one day tiger wooods will have all the stats( including most wins and most majors ) and will be considered the best golfer ever. one day walter ray williams, jr. may have the most majors and already has the most titles. that makes him the best until someone else passes it.

by the way, according to pba.com walter ray didn't start bowling on tour full time until 1983 when he was 23 years old.....not 17 years old as you stated. he had only bowled 8 national tournaments the previous two years as a member.

Edited on 9/15/2008 8:04 PM

Edited on 9/15/2008 9:02 PM

supernoodle · « **Reply #50 on:** September 15, 2008, 08:36:34 PM »

The thing is that in one off events/sports it is much easier to judge who is the best,fastest,strongest etc than it is in sports such as bowling,golf,football (Soccer for you guys in the US) simply because "Numbers" are not the be all and end all of how good they were.

Let me give you this example ask most people who the best ever heavyweight boxer was and most people will say Ali even though his record was not as good as other boxers such as Rocky Marciano. People will argue their case back and forth about who else was around at the time,adversities they overcame to reach the top,equipment available etc but there is NO definitive way of saying who is the best.

However if people had to make a choice they would tend to gravitate towards those who have the most titles regardless of any other factors such as length of career.

In this case Walter Ray may have had a longer career than Earl but we will never know if Earl would have won another one or another forty titles had he continued. However that is all if's and but's and as it stands Walter has won the most PBA titles.

For me I would say he is the best there has ever been and that behind him are Dick Weber and Earl Anthony though I can see the argument for any of those plus a few others. Its a subjective issue and as such there is no right and wrong answer,just remember that before things get too heated.

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I would have got away with it if it was not for those pesky kids (Behind my lane) and those blasted 10 pins.

Edited on 9/15/2008 8:38 PM

sevenpin63 · « **Reply #51 on:** September 15, 2008, 08:44:02 PM »

I have to agree with MAINE PBA Earl was the best of all time, the same number of titles in half the time, with inferior equipment. I remember the days when the rubber balls, and plastic balls were the thing. Compared to todays equipment its not even close, its so much easier today than back in the day. Today you just have to hit an area, back in the day you had to hit your mark on the money every time, or you paid for it.
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DON'T TEMP THE BOWLING GODS

Maine Man · « **Reply #52 on:** September 15, 2008, 09:01:30 PM »

quote:
what's wrong with my logic that the stats are what matters ? when ty cobb had 4,191 hits and a lifetime batting average of .367 and some 50 other major league records you would be hard pressed to name a more worthy candidate for the greatest baseball player of all time. he is miles ahead of the two players you named( including ted williams ).

one day tiger wooods will have all the stats( including most wins and most majors ) and will be considered the best golfer ever. one day walter ray williams, jr. may have the most majors and already has the most titles. that makes him the best until someone else passes it.

by the way, according to pba.com walter ray didn't start bowling on tour full time until 1983 when he was 22 years old.....not 17 years old as you stated. he had only bowled 8 national tournaments the previous two years as a member.

Edited on 9/15/2008 8:04 PM

You missed the point of my analogy, but I expected that, so that's fine. The person with the most of anything doesn't mean they are the greatest. So you think Pete Rose is the greatest baseball player of all time because he has the most hits? But you just said that Ty Cobb is the greatest. You don't make sense, I can't even follow your logic.

Just because Walter has the most titles DOES NOT mean he is automatically dubbed the greatest bowler ever. Earl won his titles (only one less than WRW) in half the time, so how is Walter better? Why, because he has one more title in 14 more years to get it in? No way, not even close. Ricky Henderson has the most steal, is he the greatest ball player ever? According to you he must be. I mean come on now, Earl is the best, and you just can't admit it. Walter is the greatest right handed bowler ever, I have never said otherwise, but no way is he better than Earl, no way.
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MainePBA
"I'd rather be a conservative nut job than a liberal with no nuts and no job."

DON DRAPER · « **Reply #53 on:** September 15, 2008, 09:14:02 PM »

i didn't say pete rose was the best baseball player...i only used him for an example. and not a good one at that.....he cheated and gambled on the sport he player/managed.....that's unforgiveable to baseball people. ty cobb is the greatest baseball player because of the stats he created. who else has averaged .367 for 24 years ? no one else is close.

it boils down to this......the player who wins the most in a individual sport is considered the best. any sport. golf, tennis, horseshoes, billiards, and bowling. i took an impromptu survey at work today on this very subject and the 15 people i asked they all agreed......the man who wins the most titles is considered the best. when i asked did it matter how long it took only one person said that slightly mattered.

it's obvious we're not going to agree on this subject....it's doubtful we'd agree on many subjects. but in 10 years or so when walter ray has perhaps 50 titles or more and he becomes even more of a legend i'll be the one who was right on this subject.

sevenpin63 · « **Reply #54 on:** September 15, 2008, 09:21:24 PM »

quote:
i didn't say pete rose was the best baseball player...i only used him for an example. and not a good one at that.....he cheated and gambled on the sport he player/managed.....that's unforgiveable to baseball people. ty cobb is the greatest baseball player because of the stats he created. who else has averaged .367 for 24 years ? no one else is close.

it boils down to this......the player who wins the most in a individual sport is considered the best. any sport. golf, tennis, horseshoes, billiards, and bowling. i took an impromptu survey at work today on this very subject and the 15 people i asked they all agreed......the man who wins the most titles is considered the best. when i asked did it matter how long it took only one person said that slightly mattered.

it's obvious we're not going to agree on this subject....it's doubtful we'd agree on many subjects. but in 10 years or so when walter ray has perhaps 50 titles or more and he becomes even more of a legend i'll be the one who was right on this subject.

So with your logic are you going to try to tell me that Emitt Smith was a better running back than Jim Brown because he has more yards?
Jim Brown was much better running back than Smith ever was.
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DON'T TEMP THE BOWLING GODS

LuckyLefty · « **Reply #55 on:** September 15, 2008, 11:01:06 PM »

Well to confuse the issue a little bit. Then Jack Nicklaus was not the greatest golfer ever because it took him a lot longer than the 10 years it took Bobby Jones to achieve 13 majors(Bobby Jones achievement)....but he then went on to 18 professional majors.

Now frankly I consider Jack the best(unless Tiger breaks his major titles record). In bowling Earl was the best ever. Diving Greg Louganis. Baseball Babe Ruth. Swimming it looks like Michael Phelps.

I believe when Walter gets about 10 more titles than Earl that for many it will then be a push. Even though Walter took longer to get to the magic 41 or is it 43......?

REgards,

Luckylefty
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Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..

Urameshii6 · « **Reply #56 on:** September 16, 2008, 03:06:03 AM »

I have to agree with DP3 on this. Yes, the equipment of Earl's day was inferior, but the lane conditions weren't nearly as brutal. I've been bowling since 1980, so I've been around through the transition of the sport as WRW has, I have to say that the game's technology comes into play big time here. The format used in today's PBA makes it much more imperative that they match ball, layout, surface, and lane conditions to make it through the week just to maybe get on TV, have a bad ball reaction and lose because they made the wrong choice. Anyone who has been hitting the tournaments can attest to that. Heck, unless you're bowling on a wide open shot, even THS league bowlers on squirrely lanes can attest to that. That just wasn't as big a factor in Earl's time. I personally would love to Earl and Walter go at it now, but we know that's not going to happen. This is not even worth debating. You have your opinions, fine. You want to express them, great. You want to argue with the next man because he doesn't agree with you, you're a numbskull. Keep it friendly, folks as supernoodle said, this is a no right, no wrong thread, so keep that in mind before you start arguing because you feel you right with some else who feels they're right.

quote:
I for one think it's harder for Walter Ray to win in this day in age than it was for Earl at his peak for these reasons.

There were far few players in Earl's era that could even come close to his greatness. Earl was more accurate than anyone in his day, mentally tougher, and could optimize his reaction greater than anyone. There was everyone else, and Earl. Now with the exempt tour, open fields, and the wealth of knowledge that's easily attainable, you have 40+ players that are as good as Walter Ray in execution, optimizing reaction, and reading a pattern.

With matching up being a large percentage of today's modern game, and the fact that Walter Ray carries less equipment than anyone on tour, week by week it's a crapshoot of who can match up the quickest and stay the hottest. How many weeks have we seen a guy come out of nowhere and had the week of a lifetime due to throwing certain equipment drilled up by a rep who modified the set of balls for that week to give that player a look for the week that puts them way above everyone else? I could name at least 12 times in the past 2 seasons alone. The fact that "matchup or go home" plays such a pivotal role in today's success over yesteryear's where is was "execute the best or go home", it's amazing that Walter Ray can still be as dominant as he is. That's not to say that Walter Ray isn't just matching up everyweek, yes he is, but he is doing it with far less balls than anyone on tour by a huge margin. I believe there was a 6 week stretch last season where Walter only used 2 different N'Sane LevRG balls and was in the top 12 or 16 or so every week. That's amazing considering that you have guys drilling nearly a dozen new balls week to week to get the matchup part of the game down.

Walter Ray's ability to outexecute the guy with "the best look" due to an equipment matchup and just win matches based on outscoring someone in a matchplay dominant setting is just amazing. With this format in place and the simplicity of Walter's game, he could bowl another strong 10 seasons easily, especially since he's in such good physical shape.

Yes Earl did it in an era with more tournaments and fewer seasons, but outside of about 8-10 guys of his era, who really stood a chance week in and week out while Earl was hot? With today's tour, the guy with a good look and the right rep can destroy someone executing better shots on the lane since the equipment now plays such a large part in who is in contention.

This is an argument that cannot be won, and a score that cannot be settled. The fact that people have a hard time seeing Earl's record "go away" really shows how much of a lack of forward progression that bowlers are really trying to make to further the sport. Sure it's fun to debate about topics like these but that "The present sucks, back in ____ was real bowling" attitude isn't rekindling any kind of new spirit into a game that desperately needs it.

I still think Walter Ray's accomplishments at the end of his retirement will solidify him as the best ever.
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-DJ Marshall
...The Twelve In a Row Pro Shop. AMF Bowie Lanes -- Bowie, MD

Edited on 9/16/2008 3:08 AM

Maine Man · « **Reply #57 on:** September 16, 2008, 06:20:24 AM »

quote:
but in 10 years or so when walter ray has perhaps 50 titles or more and he becomes even more of a legend i'll be the one who was right on this subject.

Well, then you can give yourself a great big pat on the back in ten years. I will still consider Earl the best (until someone comes along and dominates the tour like he did), and if Walter reaches 50+ titles (which will have take him 30 years to obtain, mind you), he will still be the best right handed bowler in history (as he is now), just not the best bowler in history.

We will have to agree to disagree on this one (I mean, it IS only opinion, and not fact), but o.k. GREG, since you REALLY need that reassurance that you're right, go ahead and give yourself that pat on the back right now, it seems like you have a never ending need to be validated. I'm done with you sir, have telling yourself that you're right all the time.
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MainePBA
"I'd rather be a conservative nut job than a liberal with no nuts and no job."

JoeBowler · « **Reply #58 on:** September 16, 2008, 07:05:23 AM »

And being the best right handed bowler in history probably makes him the best bowler in history.

Dan Belcher · « **Reply #59 on:** September 16, 2008, 07:05:32 AM »

quote:
I have to agree with MAINE PBA Earl was the best of all time, the same number of titles in half the time, with inferior equipment. I remember the days when the rubber balls, and plastic balls were the thing. Compared to todays equipment its not even close, its so much easier today than back in the day. Today you just have to hit an area, back in the day you had to hit your mark on the money every time, or you paid for it.

But EVERYBODY had the same inferior equipment back in Earl's day, and EVERYBODY has the same modern equipment today. I don't understand how you can factor this into the equation. WRW has strong resin balls, but so does everybody. He still has to beat the entire field to win the tournament, the same way tournaments worked back in Earl's day. The game is totally different now as far as how it's approached with modern equipment (ball, layout, surface, managing the changing lane conditions are all many times more important than in the past, accuracy can be sacrified for power sometimes, unlike in Earl's day when accuracy was king), but it's still all about beating everyone else in the tournament.

Maine Man · « **Reply #60 on:** September 16, 2008, 08:04:07 AM »

quote:
And being the best right handed bowler in history probably makes him the best bowler in history.

Being the best right handed bowler in history makes him the 2nd best bowler in history, imho. Or are you one of those righties who thinks that lefties are just inferior bowlers no matter what? I call that lefty envy, and it clouds your judgement, and makes you sound retarded. What, a lefty can't be better than a righty? Yeah, o.k., that makes sense....um, no. Tell Earl, Parker, and Aulby to give their titles back because they didn't throw them with the "correct" hand. Give me a break. Of all the arguments for WRW being the best ever, yours is complete nonsense.
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MainePBA
"I'd rather be a conservative nut job than a liberal with no nuts and no job."

Author Topic: walter ray williams, jr. (Read 12535 times)

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