Post by: DON DRAPER on August 30, 2008, 12:58:09 PM
Post by: tonybowls on August 31, 2008, 03:03:10 PM
Post by: slashrr69 on August 31, 2008, 07:00:50 PM
Post by: luv2C10falll on August 31, 2008, 07:04:16 PM
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"I hate losing more than I love winning"
Post by: slashrr69 on August 31, 2008, 07:24:08 PM
smile and be happy, have fun, go bowling!!! slashrr69
Post by: TWOHAND834 on August 31, 2008, 07:30:37 PM
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Steven Vance
Pro Shop Operator
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Post by: Rileybowler on August 31, 2008, 08:10:00 PM
Quote
earl anthony, unfortunately he was left handed, he at least hit his mark.. everybody has their opinions, he would be one of mine and walter would be theirs above..if earl bowled with the equipment WRW had/has he would have been unbeatable.. I wish he/earl would have never lost the fire to bowl, but sooner or later everything has to change.. more important stuff like family becomes the issue and I can understand that.. as long as WRW can pull the ball and not get penalized for it like a lot of the bowlers that have to play deeper, he will still win tournaments.. I give cudos to him for being around as long as he has and still winning , but they still want him to win so the PBA will let it happen.. give earl all the toys and reps.. no questions asked earl wins!!
smile and be happy, have fun, go bowling!!! slashrr69[/quote
____________________________________________________________________________
How old are you 5 or 6 , Walter Ray has been around for years meaning he has used all sorts of different equipment and continues to win. You probably don't like the fact that he doesn't throw a big hook now at one time he used to hook quite a bit. You bowl the way that gives you the best chance of winning and he is a master at it. He has beaten all different kinds of players from power players to tweener to strokers and done it with class thats a lot more then I can say for you
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Carl
Bless the LORD o my soul and all that is within me bless his holy name
Post by: cjh2839 on August 31, 2008, 08:19:02 PM
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AIM- cjh7125
Post by: charlest on August 31, 2008, 08:38:58 PM
(No competition within spitting distance)
WRW is comparable to Hank Aaron.
(He outlasted everyone, while still performing better.)
While I remain totally impressed with Walter Ray,
no one bowler impressed me more than Earl Anthony.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
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Post by: luv2C10falll on August 31, 2008, 09:15:40 PM
IMHO it would be Walter
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"I hate losing more than I love winning"
Post by: The SuperHitMan on August 31, 2008, 09:22:27 PM
Get over it already the torch has long been passed to WRW and the real question should be who's gonna lay claim to the best once WRW is out of the game.
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Post by: DON DRAPER on August 31, 2008, 09:29:27 PM
his contemporaries such as marshall holman and mark roth have noted that in earls prime he didn't usually fare well when the other lefthanders in the field had a good look---he usually did better when the other lefties struggled.
as great as he was, earl anthony isn't usually mentioned as one of the great all-time spare shooters. i've heard of what a great spare shooter mark roth was----especially when you consider he was a power player. and everyone has heard about walter ray's spare shooting abilities. he holds several pba records for spare shooting. yet i've never heard anyone mention earl anthony as a great spare shooter.
earl anthony is the leader in most wins in "major" tournaments------although don carter may have something to say about that. yet, he never won the us open. he was the tournament leader 3 times and yet didn't win it.
there are those who may assume that earl anthony was unbeatable on tv----far from it. his 43 wins are impressive. he finished 2nd i believe 40 times.
these facts are not meant to discredit earl anthony----they are merely a few tidbits of info. he was a great player. but, at the pba national level the man with the most titles( regardless of how long it took to earn them )has to be considered to be the best. and walter ray williams, jr., has the most pba national titles with 44. he now has two more titles that earl anthony never won-----world tenpin bowling association men's championship singles winner and also the master's winner of that organazation.
Post by: supernoodle on August 31, 2008, 09:32:26 PM
Earl was fantastic,don't get me wrong I just think when you take all the factors in consideration for me anyway,Walter is the best there is ever been.
Also for the record I personally think Dick Webber was better than Earl.
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I would have got away with it if it was not for those pesky kids (Behind my lane) and those blasted 10 pins.
Post by: Brickguy221 on August 31, 2008, 09:43:52 PM
quote:
While I remain totally impressed with Walter Ray,
no one bowler impressed me more than Earl Anthony.
I am in Charlest's boat on this one. I totally agree with him.
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"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."
Brick
Post by: charlest on August 31, 2008, 10:26:57 PM
quote:
... at the pba national level the man with the most titles( regardless of how long it took to earn them )has to be considered to be the best. and walter ray williams, jr., has the most pba national titles with 44. ...
AH, that's where we disagree, Greg.
Since we don't have a basis for discussion, it becomes a moot point.
I say Earl was a greater bowler than WRW
and Babe Ruth was greater ball player than Hank Aaron.
BTW everyone forgets that Babe Ruth held the scoreless innings streak in the World Series, FOR A PITCHER, for something like 60 years, until Don Drysdale (I think) beat it. Until they switched him over to a fielding posiiton, he was one of the best pitchers in baseball.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
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Post by: LuckyLefty on August 31, 2008, 10:36:15 PM
Perfectly explained.
In an interview I believe in Bowler's journal Walter Ray said as much himself.
He believed Earl had such a lead on other players records by such a great margin he thought no one would touch him so he lost the fire. A much higher winning percentage for Earl.
Very similar to Jack Nicklaus to Tiger. When Jack retired with 18 majors and the next closest active player had 7(Watson) and the next most was Jones with 13...he thought no one would touch him.....Along came Tiger(who may be damaged beyond repair(who knows).
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS...from Walter Ray's site...
Walter Ray..."who is the greatest?" (http://"http://www.walterray.com/answers2/hot.shtml")
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Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Edited on 8/31/2008 10:37 PM
Post by: thegame on August 31, 2008, 11:11:40 PM
Post by: RHWestar57 on August 31, 2008, 11:40:29 PM
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A man never stands so tall as when he stoops to help a child.
Life is like a bottle of jalopenas. What you do today, may come back to bite you in the azz tomorrow!
Post by: charlest on September 01, 2008, 01:20:13 AM
quote:
Actually charlest, it was Whitey Ford who beat it.
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A man never stands so tall as when he stoops to help a child.
Life is like a bottle of jalopenas. What you do today, may come back to bite you in the azz tomorrow!
Thanks. I knew it was someone good and who was in a lot series.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Unofficial Ballreviews.com FAQ (http://"http://home.mchsi.com/~s-cross-7-28-71/FAQ.htm")
Post by: JoeBowler on September 01, 2008, 07:33:22 AM
But Earl lovers always seem to forget a couple facts.
One is that Earl knew he wasnt good enough to be out there and chose to stay home until he had developed his skills and I believe he was 27. Walter chose to stay on tour and hone his skills there.
Second was that Earl came out when every lefty that had a pulse could cash. Some tournaments the top 15 qualifiers were left handed. Because of the inequity of the sides of the lane the PBA had to create a lane maintence crew.
Was Earl the class of the left handers? Definitly. Greatest ever? An emontional arguement that can not be settled.
Post by: LuckyLefty on September 01, 2008, 08:19:34 AM
Walter Ray may have had a wife at the start....I don't remember.
REgards,
Luckylefty
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Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Post by: zone72 on September 01, 2008, 10:56:30 AM
When WRW get the gold medal from these two event, i would say he is the best right now.
Post by: on September 01, 2008, 11:20:50 AM
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Lane Carter, Strike Zone Pro Shops - Salt Lake City, Utah
Brunswick Amateur Staff
Post by: Brickguy221 on September 01, 2008, 11:43:37 AM
quote:
but he's not the most exciting personality so some people don't like him.
Lane, I'll agree with that part. I bowled with him as one of my partners in a Pro-Am once and thank goodness I never got paired with him again in any Pro Ams I bowled in after that one. He had the personality of a fence post.
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"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."
Brick
Post by: SVstar34 on September 01, 2008, 11:49:32 AM
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My Arsenal:
Twisted Fury
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Blue Vibe
Post by: BowlingWolf on September 01, 2008, 12:33:29 PM
As far as those that enjoyed PBA success, I would rate "The Machine" (aptly dubbed for his consistency and accuracy) Earl Anthony as the best of all time, due to his superior winning ratio to tournaments bowled (it's not even close), with Walter Ray second, Mark Roth closely behind him in third place, Pete and Dick Weber tied for fourth place, Parker Bohn in fifth place, and Norm Duke tied with Don Johnson for sixth place.
Incidentally, no one was ever more dominant and more feared during his prime years than Mark Roth. During the 1978 season he amassed 8 titles (still a record), and in the following year compiled another 7 titles (second most ever for a season, his record also), for an astounding 15 titles in 2 consecutive seasons, and these feats were accomplished when some of the greatest bowlers of all time were his competition, such as Earl, Don Johnson, Marshall Holman, Dick Ritger, Nelson Burton Jr., etc.
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Regards,
BowlingWolf
Post by: chitown on September 02, 2008, 11:08:33 AM
quote:
earl anthony, unfortunately he was left handed, he at least hit his mark.. everybody has their opinions, he would be one of mine and walter would be theirs above..
It would be difficult to find anyone to agree with you about WRW's accuracy. WRW is one of the most accurate bowlers the tour has ever seen. His accuracy is why he wins every season on tour.
quote:
if earl bowled with the equipment WRW had/has he would have been unbeatable..
Earl was just about unbeatable during his prime. Although EA was on tour before WRW they both did bowl against each other during the same era. WRW won using the same type of equipment EA used.
quote:
as long as WRW can pull the ball and not get penalized for it like a lot of the bowlers that have to play deeper, he will still win tournaments.. I give cudos to him for being around as long as he has and still winning , but they still want him to win so the PBA will let it happen.. give earl all the toys and reps.. no questions asked earl wins!!
smile and be happy, have fun, go bowling!!! slashrr69
WRW will play what ever part of the lane needs to be played to win. If he's on a pattern that gives him more room while playing direct then maybe his competition should play more direct. Normally a bowler has to be more accurate when playing direct. Usually a bowler plays a deeper inside line because the pattern has opened up and the deeper line gives them more miss area.
The PBA doesn't set up patterns to give WRW an advantage. WRW has one playing direct and or deep inside lines. WRW still wins tourney's because he's a great bowler and is very accurate.
quote:
give earl all the toys and reps.. no questions asked earl wins!!
smile and be happy, have fun, go bowling!!! slashrr69
[/quote]
WRW won tourney's that EA was in. WRW played against EA while they were on tour together. WRW has adapted to the changes in equipment through out the years.
EA was a great bowler and one of the best ever. I don't think you can anoint one bowler as the best to ever play. I would have to say that both WRW and EA were a force on tour and always were a threat to win.
Post by: Jorge300 on September 02, 2008, 01:56:19 PM
And my vote for the best of all time: Mark Roth. He was at the time second in wins behind Earl, set the record for most wins in a season with 8, followed by a season with 7 wins. And most of all, he changed the game of bowling. He ushered in the era of the true power players. Of course, I think the greatest baseball player was Lou Gehrig as well. Numbers almost as good as Ruth's in power, better then Ruth in average, all while playing in over 2100 straight games, the last of which he did with the beginnings of a neromuscular disease that killed him. He also is the first player in baseball history to have his number retired. Another tidbit, numbers were assigned by batting order, so Ruth was 3 and Gehrig was 4, Gehrig was actually the cleanup hitter behind Ruth.
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Jorge300
Post by: Nbgiant25 on September 13, 2008, 02:58:19 PM
quote:
Earl Anthony was comparable to Babe Ruth.
(No competition within spitting distance)
WRW is comparable to Hank Aaron.
(He outlasted everyone, while still performing better.)
While I remain totally impressed with Walter Ray,
no one bowler impressed me more than Earl Anthony.
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While I respect your choice of Anthony as the greatest ever, I've got to disagree with your logic...
I am a huge baseball fan, and in my humble opinion, Babe Ruth played the majority of his career in an era of mediocrity. He didn't face the caliber pitching that we have seen in the last 30 years, which includes not having to face specialized relief pitching, nor were the ballparks (with the exceptions of a few, like the Polo Grounds) as difficult to hit the ball out of.
If anything, this comparison could be used against Anthony to show that the game was simpler at the time, in terms of competition and technology.
I think one thing that gets overlooked is that Americans tend to put heroes at such levels as to place them above reproach, without objectively looking at the differences in the sport over time. Comparison across time is almost impossible, but if a comparison has to be made, I'd be more willing to err on the side of modern players being able to outperform due to the accumulated knowledge of the sport. Its not a knock on the older generation, its just a fact of life...
Post by: slashrr69 on September 13, 2008, 03:10:34 PM
crawl back under your rock.. the game today is ten times easier then it was back then.. I would take all the them there old generation bowlers(as you put it) against any and all the newer guys coming out today... anytime sir!!!
Post by: Nbgiant25 on September 13, 2008, 03:28:03 PM
quote:
dude
crawl back under your rock.. the game today is ten times easier then it was back then.. I would take all the them there old generation bowlers(as you put it) against any and all the newer guys coming out today... anytime sir!!!
prove that it was 10 times easier... you can't. i can, however, prove that it was SIMPLER. there wasnt as much to deal with in the beginnings of bowling as a sport as there is today.
you have your opinion, and i have mine, don't start getting personal with it, you just sound silly...
Post by: BowlingWolf on September 13, 2008, 04:33:16 PM
While it is true that today's technology is superior to yesteryear's (a natural evolution), and that today there is a heavy emphasis on coaching (across all sports and other involvements of life), as well as specialized training, these facts alone do not serve to underscore that the bowlers from past generations were less able/talented than today's.
In fact, what you assert may very well be used to affirm that older time bowlers were more exceptional given the fact that they didn't have the resources readily available today.
Your claim that Earl Anthony's competition was inferior to today's doesn't hold any water whatsoever. Earl bowled during an era when bowling popularity was at an all-time high, there were hundreds of bowlers that entered the weekly professional tour stops (unlike the meager amount of "exempt" bowlers that now enter), and his contemporaries are some of the greatest bowlers ever to lace 'em up (most of the bowlers in the PBA hall fame were his weekly competition).
Thinking that everything from today is superior than yesterday's is backward logic.
I don't even want to get into your baseball analysis (bashing Babe Ruth???)—I could go on forever on that one—suffice it to say that I think it' a bunch of hogwash.
What ever rocks your boat.
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Regards,
BowlingWolf
Post by: chitown on September 13, 2008, 07:53:30 PM
Post by: Jayemm on September 13, 2008, 08:02:21 PM
quote:
Earl Anthony was comparable to Babe Ruth.
(No competition within spitting distance)
WRW is comparable to Hank Aaron.
(He outlasted everyone, while still performing better.)
if your going to use those guidelines to compare bowlers then PDW can be compared to Ken Griffey Jr. Tremendous god given talent, but injuries (in Petey's case, suspension and poor personal choices [ i.e. : the drugs and alcohol]) prevented him from being the best their ever was.
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John
Better Bowling Pro Shops Inc Staff
Post by: Maine Man on September 13, 2008, 08:05:36 PM
Walter Ray: 41 titles in 25 seasons (he now has 44 in 28 seasons)
No doubt about it, Earl is the best. No one will ever win that amount of titles in that short of a span ever again. Even though I feel Earl is the best of all time, I do feel that Walter Ray is not only the second best, but THE greatest right handed bowler ever.
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MainePBA
"I'd rather be a conservative nut job than a liberal with no nuts and no job."
Post by: dw23 on September 13, 2008, 08:53:12 PM
As great as Earl was I don't agree that it is a given that he would have been as great with the reactive equipment. Many bowlers from the plastic and urethane days have had trouble adjusting to reactive equipment. It ran some out of the game completely.
Bottom line for me is we know that Walter can win eras and we will never know if Earl could have done it but it doesn't take away from his greatness. Walter first Earl second and insert one of many from third on.
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DW
Post by: 86camaroman on September 13, 2008, 09:29:49 PM
Post by: slashrr69 on September 14, 2008, 01:34:08 AM
you hit it right on the head big dog.. you can hoooooooowwwwwllllll anytime you want too... and mainepba keep them stats coming in 41 in 13 years and 41 in 25 years, do the math NO QUESTION!!! GO EARL!!! slashrr69
Post by: dw23 on September 14, 2008, 03:16:14 AM
quote:
didn't want to chime in but after reading the post above mine I realize how stupid some comments are. Saying that a mediocre bowler is great with resin making it hard for walter to win but then contradicting and saying that earl may not have been able to use resin. So a great bowler cant use resin but a mediocre bowler is awesome with it um yeah okay
It's not a contradiction. Bowlers that were not very accurate have had an easier time since resin. Bowlers that were accurate but couldn't generate speed to carry or control the newfound hook of resin have had a very hard time. Not a stupid comment but an observation. You can have one too without being stupid. However calling an educated opinion stupid is stupid.
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DW
Post by: EdKramarcak on September 14, 2008, 10:18:25 AM
Post by: 86camaroman on September 14, 2008, 10:28:15 AM
Post by: KennyRambo on September 14, 2008, 11:15:42 AM
Post by: DON DRAPER on September 14, 2008, 05:11:05 PM
Post by: iowalefty on September 14, 2008, 07:56:17 PM
anyway, neither earl anthony nor WRW were revolutionary, mark roth was the closest to that. i grew up on earl anthony, and am a huge fan of his. i watched a fair amount of earl when i was a kid, he was my idol etc, but i haven't watched as many other bowlers tho i have tried from youtube. ok earl won his titles in fewer seasons. didn't they bowl more tourneys per year then? that sorta cancels out the discrepancy in seasons, maybe shaves that in half.
the technology has accelerated since WRW came on tour, different formats etc further decreases the difference between the 2. if pushed i would still choose earl but if WRW pushes for another POY i could very well change my mind.
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derek
http://members.bowl.com/SearchUSBC/ViewMember.aspx?prefix=756&suffix=622
finished 209 on tues 207 on monday for 07-08
main arsenal now:
cell
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el nino 2000
green gargoyle
fury
blue dot
Post by: DP3 on September 14, 2008, 08:47:15 PM
There were far few players in Earl's era that could even come close to his greatness. Earl was more accurate than anyone in his day, mentally tougher, and could optimize his reaction greater than anyone. There was everyone else, and Earl. Now with the exempt tour, open fields, and the wealth of knowledge that's easily attainable, you have 40+ players that are as good as Walter Ray in execution, optimizing reaction, and reading a pattern.
With matching up being a large percentage of today's modern game, and the fact that Walter Ray carries less equipment than anyone on tour, week by week it's a crapshoot of who can match up the quickest and stay the hottest. How many weeks have we seen a guy come out of nowhere and had the week of a lifetime due to throwing certain equipment drilled up by a rep who modified the set of balls for that week to give that player a look for the week that puts them way above everyone else? I could name at least 12 times in the past 2 seasons alone. The fact that "matchup or go home" plays such a pivotal role in today's success over yesteryear's where is was "execute the best or go home", it's amazing that Walter Ray can still be as dominant as he is. That's not to say that Walter Ray isn't just matching up everyweek, yes he is, but he is doing it with far less balls than anyone on tour by a huge margin. I believe there was a 6 week stretch last season where Walter only used 2 different N'Sane LevRG balls and was in the top 12 or 16 or so every week. That's amazing considering that you have guys drilling nearly a dozen new balls week to week to get the matchup part of the game down.
Walter Ray's ability to outexecute the guy with "the best look" due to an equipment matchup and just win matches based on outscoring someone in a matchplay dominant setting is just amazing. With this format in place and the simplicity of Walter's game, he could bowl another strong 10 seasons easily, especially since he's in such good physical shape.
Yes Earl did it in an era with more tournaments and fewer seasons, but outside of about 8-10 guys of his era, who really stood a chance week in and week out while Earl was hot? With today's tour, the guy with a good look and the right rep can destroy someone executing better shots on the lane since the equipment now plays such a large part in who is in contention.
This is an argument that cannot be won, and a score that cannot be settled. The fact that people have a hard time seeing Earl's record "go away" really shows how much of a lack of forward progression that bowlers are really trying to make to further the sport. Sure it's fun to debate about topics like these but that "The present sucks, back in ____ was real bowling" attitude isn't rekindling any kind of new spirit into a game that desperately needs it.
I still think Walter Ray's accomplishments at the end of his retirement will solidify him as the best ever.
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-DJ Marshall
...The Twelve In a Row Pro Shop. AMF Bowie Lanes -- Bowie, MD
Post by: dw23 on September 15, 2008, 12:58:00 AM
quote:
It gave the weaker handed players the power of the stronger handed players without the hand. It did not help high rev players, it hurt them.
High rev players got more room to the right and more room to the left to strike with reactive resin. Before the PBA sport conditions came into play all of the high rev guys were hot on tour. Since the PBA sport conditions seems like tweeners and strokers have ruled. Pete and Tommy are the exceptions but they are accurate. All of the high rev guys on tour are trying to cut there rev rate.
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DW
Post by: rockerbowler18 on September 15, 2008, 01:33:06 AM
An absolutely fabulous part of our history, which you cannot deduct from (and I'm not trying to) is Earl Anthony, and I wish no more than to uphold him to the esteemed position he has earned, but WRW is definitely the best of all time.
On a personal note, I think that Parker Bohn III ought to be considered somewhere in there (AT LEAST TOP 5), if only for the fact that I doubt anyone can tell me one person with more perfect textbook form and shotmaking skills than Parker.
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Righty
High rev rate (400-450 rpm)
Semi-high speed (16-17 mph)
Book average: 202
For a game based on the principles of science and math, bowling sure does have a bad habit of being illogical.
Post by: Maine Man on September 15, 2008, 07:10:36 AM
quote:
you know it's amazing how everyone seems to bring up the fact that it took walter ray longer to get 41 titles than earl anthony. is everyone aware that it took pete rose more at bats to reach 4,191 hits than it took ty cobb ? didn't hank aaron need more at bats to pass 714 home runs ? unless i'm mistaken, the record books only show the accomplishment achieved......not the length of the persons career.
GREG, that is flawed logic, and you know it. Here's an example for you: Craig Biggio vs. Ted Williams. Who is the better hitter all time? Of course it's Ted Williams hands down. But, if we use your logic and go purely by the stats, and not the length of time the stats were performed in, then Biggio is clearly the better player. I mean, Williams never reached 3,000 hits, but since Biggio reached that mark, he must be LEAGUES ahead of Ted Williams as a hitter (even though Biggio had over 3,000 more at bats than Ted). Give me a break, you HAVE to take into consideration the time frame a player dominated, it shows just how much better they were than their competition.
Actually Earl had 43 titles in 13 seasons, not 41. And like I said, it took him (WRW) now 27 years to tie Earl with 43 titles (and now has 44). Sorry, tying a guy in double the time does not mean you were the better player, it just means you started younger (remember Walter was only 17 when he started out on tour). Earl didn't even compete on tour until his 30's (his first title cam when he was 32). Walter Ray has won 36 titles since turning 32, so he is still 7 titles shy of Earl. Plus, if you take the same 13 year time span that Earl won his titles in, Walter has 33 titles in that span, or 10 less than Earl had. I bet if Earl had bowled since he was 17 on tour, he would have 65+ titles right now, and there would be no debate. Walter has been a great player and the greatest right handed bowler of all time, but no way is he even close to Earl Anthony, no way.
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MainePBA
"I'd rather be a conservative nut job than a liberal with no nuts and no job."
Post by: DON DRAPER on September 15, 2008, 07:57:31 PM
one day tiger wooods will have all the stats( including most wins and most majors ) and will be considered the best golfer ever. one day walter ray williams, jr. may have the most majors and already has the most titles. that makes him the best until someone else passes it.
by the way, according to pba.com walter ray didn't start bowling on tour full time until 1983 when he was 23 years old.....not 17 years old as you stated. he had only bowled 8 national tournaments the previous two years as a member.
Edited on 9/15/2008 8:04 PM
Edited on 9/15/2008 9:02 PM
Post by: supernoodle on September 15, 2008, 08:36:34 PM
Let me give you this example ask most people who the best ever heavyweight boxer was and most people will say Ali even though his record was not as good as other boxers such as Rocky Marciano. People will argue their case back and forth about who else was around at the time,adversities they overcame to reach the top,equipment available etc but there is NO definitive way of saying who is the best.
However if people had to make a choice they would tend to gravitate towards those who have the most titles regardless of any other factors such as length of career.
In this case Walter Ray may have had a longer career than Earl but we will never know if Earl would have won another one or another forty titles had he continued. However that is all if's and but's and as it stands Walter has won the most PBA titles.
For me I would say he is the best there has ever been and that behind him are Dick Weber and Earl Anthony though I can see the argument for any of those plus a few others. Its a subjective issue and as such there is no right and wrong answer,just remember that before things get too heated.
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I would have got away with it if it was not for those pesky kids (Behind my lane) and those blasted 10 pins.
Edited on 9/15/2008 8:38 PM
Post by: sevenpin63 on September 15, 2008, 08:44:02 PM
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DON'T TEMP THE BOWLING GODS
Post by: Maine Man on September 15, 2008, 09:01:30 PM
quote:
what's wrong with my logic that the stats are what matters ? when ty cobb had 4,191 hits and a lifetime batting average of .367 and some 50 other major league records you would be hard pressed to name a more worthy candidate for the greatest baseball player of all time. he is miles ahead of the two players you named( including ted williams ).
one day tiger wooods will have all the stats( including most wins and most majors ) and will be considered the best golfer ever. one day walter ray williams, jr. may have the most majors and already has the most titles. that makes him the best until someone else passes it.
by the way, according to pba.com walter ray didn't start bowling on tour full time until 1983 when he was 22 years old.....not 17 years old as you stated. he had only bowled 8 national tournaments the previous two years as a member.
Edited on 9/15/2008 8:04 PM
You missed the point of my analogy, but I expected that, so that's fine. The person with the most of anything doesn't mean they are the greatest. So you think Pete Rose is the greatest baseball player of all time because he has the most hits? But you just said that Ty Cobb is the greatest. You don't make sense, I can't even follow your logic.
Just because Walter has the most titles DOES NOT mean he is automatically dubbed the greatest bowler ever. Earl won his titles (only one less than WRW) in half the time, so how is Walter better? Why, because he has one more title in 14 more years to get it in? No way, not even close. Ricky Henderson has the most steal, is he the greatest ball player ever? According to you he must be. I mean come on now, Earl is the best, and you just can't admit it. Walter is the greatest right handed bowler ever, I have never said otherwise, but no way is he better than Earl, no way.
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MainePBA
"I'd rather be a conservative nut job than a liberal with no nuts and no job."
Post by: DON DRAPER on September 15, 2008, 09:14:02 PM
it boils down to this......the player who wins the most in a individual sport is considered the best. any sport. golf, tennis, horseshoes, billiards, and bowling. i took an impromptu survey at work today on this very subject and the 15 people i asked they all agreed......the man who wins the most titles is considered the best. when i asked did it matter how long it took only one person said that slightly mattered.
it's obvious we're not going to agree on this subject....it's doubtful we'd agree on many subjects. but in 10 years or so when walter ray has perhaps 50 titles or more and he becomes even more of a legend i'll be the one who was right on this subject.
Post by: sevenpin63 on September 15, 2008, 09:21:24 PM
quote:
i didn't say pete rose was the best baseball player...i only used him for an example. and not a good one at that.....he cheated and gambled on the sport he player/managed.....that's unforgiveable to baseball people. ty cobb is the greatest baseball player because of the stats he created. who else has averaged .367 for 24 years ? no one else is close.
it boils down to this......the player who wins the most in a individual sport is considered the best. any sport. golf, tennis, horseshoes, billiards, and bowling. i took an impromptu survey at work today on this very subject and the 15 people i asked they all agreed......the man who wins the most titles is considered the best. when i asked did it matter how long it took only one person said that slightly mattered.
it's obvious we're not going to agree on this subject....it's doubtful we'd agree on many subjects. but in 10 years or so when walter ray has perhaps 50 titles or more and he becomes even more of a legend i'll be the one who was right on this subject.
So with your logic are you going to try to tell me that Emitt Smith was a better running back than Jim Brown because he has more yards?
Jim Brown was much better running back than Smith ever was.
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DON'T TEMP THE BOWLING GODS
Post by: LuckyLefty on September 15, 2008, 11:01:06 PM
Now frankly I consider Jack the best(unless Tiger breaks his major titles record). In bowling Earl was the best ever. Diving Greg Louganis. Baseball Babe Ruth. Swimming it looks like Michael Phelps.
I believe when Walter gets about 10 more titles than Earl that for many it will then be a push. Even though Walter took longer to get to the magic 41 or is it 43......?
REgards,
Luckylefty
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Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Post by: Urameshii6 on September 16, 2008, 03:06:03 AM
quote:
I for one think it's harder for Walter Ray to win in this day in age than it was for Earl at his peak for these reasons.
There were far few players in Earl's era that could even come close to his greatness. Earl was more accurate than anyone in his day, mentally tougher, and could optimize his reaction greater than anyone. There was everyone else, and Earl. Now with the exempt tour, open fields, and the wealth of knowledge that's easily attainable, you have 40+ players that are as good as Walter Ray in execution, optimizing reaction, and reading a pattern.
With matching up being a large percentage of today's modern game, and the fact that Walter Ray carries less equipment than anyone on tour, week by week it's a crapshoot of who can match up the quickest and stay the hottest. How many weeks have we seen a guy come out of nowhere and had the week of a lifetime due to throwing certain equipment drilled up by a rep who modified the set of balls for that week to give that player a look for the week that puts them way above everyone else? I could name at least 12 times in the past 2 seasons alone. The fact that "matchup or go home" plays such a pivotal role in today's success over yesteryear's where is was "execute the best or go home", it's amazing that Walter Ray can still be as dominant as he is. That's not to say that Walter Ray isn't just matching up everyweek, yes he is, but he is doing it with far less balls than anyone on tour by a huge margin. I believe there was a 6 week stretch last season where Walter only used 2 different N'Sane LevRG balls and was in the top 12 or 16 or so every week. That's amazing considering that you have guys drilling nearly a dozen new balls week to week to get the matchup part of the game down.
Walter Ray's ability to outexecute the guy with "the best look" due to an equipment matchup and just win matches based on outscoring someone in a matchplay dominant setting is just amazing. With this format in place and the simplicity of Walter's game, he could bowl another strong 10 seasons easily, especially since he's in such good physical shape.
Yes Earl did it in an era with more tournaments and fewer seasons, but outside of about 8-10 guys of his era, who really stood a chance week in and week out while Earl was hot? With today's tour, the guy with a good look and the right rep can destroy someone executing better shots on the lane since the equipment now plays such a large part in who is in contention.
This is an argument that cannot be won, and a score that cannot be settled. The fact that people have a hard time seeing Earl's record "go away" really shows how much of a lack of forward progression that bowlers are really trying to make to further the sport. Sure it's fun to debate about topics like these but that "The present sucks, back in ____ was real bowling" attitude isn't rekindling any kind of new spirit into a game that desperately needs it.
I still think Walter Ray's accomplishments at the end of his retirement will solidify him as the best ever.
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-DJ Marshall
...The Twelve In a Row Pro Shop. AMF Bowie Lanes -- Bowie, MD
Edited on 9/16/2008 3:08 AM
Post by: Maine Man on September 16, 2008, 06:20:24 AM
quote:
but in 10 years or so when walter ray has perhaps 50 titles or more and he becomes even more of a legend i'll be the one who was right on this subject.
Well, then you can give yourself a great big pat on the back in ten years. I will still consider Earl the best (until someone comes along and dominates the tour like he did), and if Walter reaches 50+ titles (which will have take him 30 years to obtain, mind you), he will still be the best right handed bowler in history (as he is now), just not the best bowler in history.
We will have to agree to disagree on this one (I mean, it IS only opinion, and not fact), but o.k. GREG, since you REALLY need that reassurance that you're right, go ahead and give yourself that pat on the back right now, it seems like you have a never ending need to be validated. I'm done with you sir, have telling yourself that you're right all the time.
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MainePBA
"I'd rather be a conservative nut job than a liberal with no nuts and no job."
Post by: JoeBowler on September 16, 2008, 07:05:23 AM
Post by: Dan Belcher on September 16, 2008, 07:05:32 AM
quote:But EVERYBODY had the same inferior equipment back in Earl's day, and EVERYBODY has the same modern equipment today. I don't understand how you can factor this into the equation. WRW has strong resin balls, but so does everybody. He still has to beat the entire field to win the tournament, the same way tournaments worked back in Earl's day. The game is totally different now as far as how it's approached with modern equipment (ball, layout, surface, managing the changing lane conditions are all many times more important than in the past, accuracy can be sacrified for power sometimes, unlike in Earl's day when accuracy was king), but it's still all about beating everyone else in the tournament.
I have to agree with MAINE PBA Earl was the best of all time, the same number of titles in half the time, with inferior equipment. I remember the days when the rubber balls, and plastic balls were the thing. Compared to todays equipment its not even close, its so much easier today than back in the day. Today you just have to hit an area, back in the day you had to hit your mark on the money every time, or you paid for it.
Post by: Maine Man on September 16, 2008, 08:04:07 AM
quote:
And being the best right handed bowler in history probably makes him the best bowler in history.
Being the best right handed bowler in history makes him the 2nd best bowler in history, imho. Or are you one of those righties who thinks that lefties are just inferior bowlers no matter what? I call that lefty envy, and it clouds your judgement, and makes you sound retarded. What, a lefty can't be better than a righty? Yeah, o.k., that makes sense....um, no. Tell Earl, Parker, and Aulby to give their titles back because they didn't throw them with the "correct" hand. Give me a break. Of all the arguments for WRW being the best ever, yours is complete nonsense.
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MainePBA
"I'd rather be a conservative nut job than a liberal with no nuts and no job."
Post by: JoeBowler on September 16, 2008, 08:57:47 AM
Didnt say he wasnt good.
So it just happens that less than 20% of the population is left handed but the have produced 3 of top 6 PBA title winners and a disproportionate number of majors. Seems like a big statisical anomally to me.
A good lefty when they have a superior shot only has to beat a handful of others. A good righty always will have many to defeat.
Earl, Parker, Aulby, all excellent bowlers. WOuldnt want to have to bowl them on any condition. Heck I couldnt bowl with anyone on tour.
With todays current format would Earl or Walter won as many titles as these matchs become more of a crap shoot rather than who is bowling best.
Post by: Maine Man on September 16, 2008, 09:07:18 AM
quote:
I believe your use of the left hand clouds your judgement.
Didn't say he wasn't good.
So it just happens that less than 20% of the population is left handed but the have produced 3 of top 6 PBA title winners and a disproportionate number of majors. Seems like a big statistical anomaly to me.
A good lefty when they have a superior shot only has to beat a handful of others. A good righty always will have many to defeat.
Earl, Parker, Aulby, all excellent bowlers. Wouldn't want to have to bowl them on any condition. Heck I couldn't bowl with anyone on tour.
With todays current format would Earl or Walter won as many titles as these matches become more of a crap shoot rather than who is bowling best.
No clouded judgement here. I think great bowling is great bowling, no matter what hand you throw it with, and great bowlers are great bowlers. If WRW had the stats Earl has, than I would be championing him as the greatest of all time, I was just letting people know that I feel WRW is the 2nd greatest bowler in history. I said he is the greatest righty, only because Earl is lefty. Heck, you could almost go 1A and 1B for Earl and WRW if you wanted to, they are that close imho. I just give the slight edge to Earl, that's all.
I hate to see guys (pros, amateurs, whoever) getting trashed on by people like you who think that because they didn't throw the ball with the same hand as 80% + of the bowling population do, then their accomplishments should be somehow diminished. I look at the individual who shot and posted up the numbers, and not what hand they used to throw those numbers with. I wish more people did the same, and stopped crying foul because someone uses their left hand, grow up.
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MainePBA
"I'd rather be a conservative nut job than a liberal with no nuts and no job."
Post by: sevenpin63 on September 16, 2008, 04:33:17 PM
quote:quote:But EVERYBODY had the same inferior equipment back in Earl's day, and EVERYBODY has the same modern equipment today. I don't understand how you can factor this into the equation. WRW has strong resin balls, but so does everybody. He still has to beat the entire field to win the tournament, the same way tournaments worked back in Earl's day. The game is totally different now as far as how it's approached with modern equipment (ball, layout, surface, managing the changing lane conditions are all many times more important than in the past, accuracy can be sacrified for power sometimes, unlike in Earl's day when accuracy was king), but it's still all about beating everyone else in the tournament.
I have to agree with MAINE PBA Earl was the best of all time, the same number of titles in half the time, with inferior equipment. I remember the days when the rubber balls, and plastic balls were the thing. Compared to todays equipment its not even close, its so much easier today than back in the day. Today you just have to hit an area, back in the day you had to hit your mark on the money every time, or you paid for it.
All I am saying with the equipment from back in the day, and the equipment of today is, back in the day you had to have REAL talent to make it. But with todays equipment its alot easier for a good bowler to be a great bowler, alot more room for error. Back then you always needed your A game.
I used all of the different equipment thru my life time, and believe me I can tell the difference.
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DON'T TEMP THE BOWLING GODS
Post by: Joe Jr on September 16, 2008, 05:06:15 PM
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My Vid (http://"http://s37.photobucket.com/albums/e56/RevLefty/Vids/?action=view¤t=ArchRival.flv")
Formerly Brunswick Lefty & Richard Cranium
Edited on 7/9/1997 12:43 PM
Post by: Dan Belcher on September 16, 2008, 09:49:34 PM
quote:I guess it all depends on what you define as "real talent." It's a different kind of talent to score now compared to then, but is one necessarily better than the other?
All I am saying with the equipment from back in the day, and the equipment of today is, back in the day you had to have REAL talent to make it. But with todays equipment its alot easier for a good bowler to be a great bowler, alot more room for error. Back then you always needed your A game.
I used all of the different equipment thru my life time, and believe me I can tell the difference.
Post by: Krakken on September 17, 2008, 12:51:11 PM
He was by far the best of his era, that is without dispute, but who's to say the competition of that era was bettter than the competition of this era?
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Speed Kills
When in doubt, move out
Post by: David Lee Yskes on September 17, 2008, 09:16:10 PM
Back in Earl's day, everyone was using the same equipment, and playing the same line. And yes accuracy had to be a premium over power. But Earl, had to face a field that had maybe 5 to 10 guys who might be able to beat him every week if they were "on". Plus, for the most part, the oil patterns was always the same.
When WRW was starting out, you probably had 10-20 guys every week who could win. Then after a few years, it was probably more like 25+ guys who could win every week. Now, its probably 30-50 guys who could win every week if they had the chance. Hell, I havent even watched a bowling match on TV, probably since 2003????? idk lol I stopped bowling in 2004 so i dont even know what the format is anymore!
But, I do remember before they had the "Exempt" Tour, and it was just a full field of pro's, about 75% of those guys if they had a good week can beat WRW's.
The oil patterns and the way the balls react and use up the oil and move the oil around makes it alot harder to bowl, than to just play one line all week long.
Plus how many tournaments were around back when Earl was bowling fulltime??? also it was the highpoint of bowling when sponser's flocked to bowling and bowling was on tv primetime.
WRW, bowled during the dark ages of bowling, when it was scraping by and tournaments folded and you lost tournaments almost every year. Plus, he also had to adapt to the ever changing oil patterns and with new bowling balls comming out all the time.
I also remember a tournament where WRW's beat everyone, by using a PLASTIC BALL, when everyone else was using REACTIVE!!!!!!! I'd love to see someone try and challenge that feat!!
Plus, How many different types of bowling pins are out there???? Cuz I know not all of the bowling alleys use the same ones. And those all react differently too.
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" Lift Your Skirt Grab Your Balls and Learn How to Bowl "