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Author Topic: wrong impression of Rogue  (Read 5496 times)

Lower_Level

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wrong impression of Rogue
« on: March 16, 2009, 12:43:54 AM »
I got a rogue cell drilled up this weekend; pin over ring, CG kicked right , MB kicked WAY out (I think the drilling is 6x4 by roto's website) We chose this drilling cause I was hoping that this ball would cover alot more area than my Break s75 (Pin over bridge, CG on midline).  I have to say I did not get the reaction that I was looking for at all.  To find pocket; I was throwing basically straight up the 10 board; and about 50 ft down the lane the ball looked like it was kicked straight left!! Don't get me wrong, the ball is very strong off the dry; but I was wanting to be able to swing this ball & it simply turns too late to allow this.  Did we choose the wrong drilling?  Or is this just what the ball is designed to do?  

Would a surface change to 2000 abralon from 4000 make much difference?  Or would it kill the reaction entirely?

This is my first Roto ball & I'm not sure how they take to surface changes...
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insidedrive

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Re: wrong impression of Rogue
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2009, 03:17:51 PM »
hey dballz

For the heavier/longer patterns if you're looking for something to turn the corner and handle the oil then the smaller the angles the better (just not too small).  Anything around 30 x 3-4 x 30 would be find.  Give or take 10 to 20 degrees on either side.

In my experience people that bowl on longer/heavier patterns are looking for control and not so much hook on the oil.  For something like that I'd personally go with a 30 x 3 x 60.  That'll control the hook on the back end but let the ball pick up early.

Luckily there's lots of room for adjustment with dual angle layouts with a PAP like mine.  So for me as a general rule on longer patterns I keep my drilling angle around 30-50 and my angle to the val around 20-45.  Based on your axis tilt it may vary for you, but that's my general rule of thumb for those pattern drills.

Steve Richter

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Re: wrong impression of Rogue
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2009, 04:20:57 PM »
Without axis point, rev rate, rotation angle and ball speed this is a tough one to assess.  More information would help us all help you better.
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Steve Richter

carlos

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Re: wrong impression of Rogue
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2009, 04:39:35 PM »
What would be a good layout for the Rogue ?

charlest

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Re: wrong impression of Rogue
« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2009, 06:27:52 PM »
quote:
What would be a good layout for the Rogue ?


Hmm, not reading what was written?
That could help you.

It depends on your PAP, rev rate, ball speed, tilt, Rotation, the oil pattern on which you're bowling, the lane surface and the reaction you desire/want/need.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."

Edited on 3/16/2009 6:28 PM
"None are so blind as those who will not see."

Lower_Level

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Re: wrong impression of Rogue
« Reply #20 on: March 17, 2009, 08:35:49 PM »
Okay, this is possibly off my own topic, but it's now got me curious. I threw the rogue in league last night & noticed something that I've never noticed on a ball before. when the ball came back from the return, I grabbed it to see how much flare it was getting. It had about 6", each ring about 1/2 - 3/4" apart. But the odd thing was that there was a separate set of "burn marks" on the right side of the grips, about 60 degrees from the c/l of my drilling. That set of flare rings was about 1.5" wide. I'm assuming that that came when the ball hit the dry, but I've never seen it on any ball I've thrown before!!  Is that normal?
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Steve Richter

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Re: wrong impression of Rogue
« Reply #21 on: March 18, 2009, 02:16:36 AM »
It sounds like what you're describing is the "dry flare" from the backends.  Yes, these balls generate friction and in the absence of oil they heat up and get a burn in them.  Not hazardous to your ball, it's just physics.

What has me more curious is your flare split you list as between 1/2" and 3/4"  That is HUGE, and I would expect your ball to burn early then, even if you have high ball speed, and for sure if you have any kind of rev rate.  

Seriously LL, to help you more we're going to need the info above.  The data you've provided seems to contradict what you're seeing for ball reaction.  Maybe you could take a vidio and post it here to help us get a relative feel if you don't have the data we're looking for.
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Steve Richter

Lower_Level

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Re: wrong impression of Rogue
« Reply #22 on: March 18, 2009, 09:56:53 AM »
yeah, i don't know my actual rev rate, axis tilt etc.  sorry.  what I wil do though is try & get a short video of the ball when i go to practice tomorrow.  the shot won't be 100% fresh, but it should still be able to show what you're looking for...

will post tomorrow!
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Lower_Level

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Re: wrong impression of Rogue
« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2009, 05:20:26 PM »
okay, so I was able to get some video of me tossing this ball.  it was unfortunately not on a fresh shot it was league leftovers with some carrydown.  I'm trying to upload it to youtube right now, but the file is so freaking huge!  I've never tried to make a video like this before & obviously have no idea what I'm doing!!

Anyone who regularily posts videos what programs do you use & how do you compress them for size?

I will post a link if it ever finishes!
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Lower_Level

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Re: wrong impression of Rogue
« Reply #24 on: March 19, 2009, 10:20:40 PM »
DISCLAIMER:

The lanes were league leftovers of our 42ft. THS with ome carrydown.  So the ball isn't quite as snappy as it was on the fresh shot monday. If I can, I will try & bring the camera with me to league next week.  

I am not a pro bowler by any means so I know my form etc. isn't perfect. I welcome any constructive critisizm but the video's intent is to show the ball not me.

The bumpers are up because my kids were bowling with me not cause I need them...  LOL!


http://s62.photobucket.com/albums/h95/Lower_Level/?action=view¤t=roguecell10001.flv
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nd300

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Re: wrong impression of Rogue
« Reply #25 on: March 19, 2009, 10:31:40 PM »
With all due respect,you should work on staying balanced at the line after delivering the ball. When you fall off to the right,your ball will stay to the right. All fo your body mass is going away from your target,thus your ball will too.
 The one shot where you did stay balanced you threw the ball well. Make all of your shots---both strike and spare shots--- like that and you'll notice an immediate improvement.
 Work on leg strength by simply doing body weight squats and calf raises and you'll be better for it.
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Steve Richter

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Re: wrong impression of Rogue
« Reply #26 on: March 20, 2009, 08:14:21 AM »
LL:

I have a few comments, and please understand these are intended to help you and minimize frustrations.

1) I don't believe your layout is a 6" x 4".  While I can see you track high, that pin position would make your horizontal axis coordinate something like 6-1/2".
My advice: Never let any pro shop drill another ball for you without them knowing your PAP,physical game, and what you want out of the ball.  It's unfair to you to plunk down that kind of $$ to not understand what your stuff is intended to do.  They need to be better at helping you on this.

2) I don't think that your game is suited for sending too far away from the pocket in a "swinging" fashion.  You thumb the ball down at the release and you are past the leverage point when the thumb comes out which makes your ball track higher.  Meaning your stuff reads the front, not the backs, forcing you to play straighter.  Even if you had the most whippy ball available, you would get enhanced motion, but not like others get who you bowl with.
My Advice: PM me and I'll give you a trick I use on my students that helps get them to track lower (in this scenario).  When done correctly, you'll do less work and get more out of the ball.
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Steve Richter

Edited on 3/20/2009 8:15 AM

Lower_Level

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Re: wrong impression of Rogue
« Reply #27 on: March 20, 2009, 09:02:41 AM »
Hey, thanks for the comments thus far.  Timing & "posting" at the line is something that I am very aware is wrong with my game.  My timing is very late & I end up muscling the ball instead of being more fluid which is what's throwing me off at the line.  I've started working on going back to a 4 step approach to mentally get the ball moving sooner in the swing but it is a definate work in progress & at present I'm still a little uncomfortable with it to be trying in league.

Steve: I'm appreciative of any advise & suggestions. PM sent!


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insidedrive

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Re: wrong impression of Rogue
« Reply #28 on: March 20, 2009, 09:08:01 AM »
LL,

Steve Richter said exactly what I would say.  After watching you bowl I have a hard time beliving that layout is a 6 x 4.  I am also going to guess that you have a high track PAP similar to what Steve mentioned.  That layout looks more like a 4.5 by 4.5 or even a 5 x 3.75 kind of drill.  I also agree with Steve that for your style of play you may not be able to open up the lanes as much as you'd like, which is by no means a bad thing.  A straighter game really is a better game and you've got a great style for that.

One thing to note is that you have your pin positioned above the fingers and the CG slightly kicked to the right.  For a high track bowler this would create a greater angle to the val which will tame the backend of the ball.  Working off of what Steve said if you have a style that already doesn't have a huge backend then now you've completely tamed what the ball will do in the last 20 feet of the lane.  I think the CG and MB are actually in very good positions, by my estimate your drilling angle is something around 50 degrees or so which is not terrible, although if you really want the ball to read early that should be < 45.  

In my opinion what you have is a very versatile ball for moderate to heavily oiled patterns but you'll have to go straight up the outside part of the lane.  I would personally use this ball with that layout on a shot like the cheetah, viper or even chameleon, gives good midlane read with a tamed but consistent back end.

It's not that you drilled a dud, just that the reaction characteristic is not what you were intending.  Try out some more straight up outside lines on heavier shots (fresh ths, tournament, etc) and see if it gives you the nice look that I and possibly others would expect.  The best part about a layout like this is you can polish it and it becomes a great THS ball with some snap on the backend.