Author Topic: Ball differentiation and introduction dates ??? (Read 2750 times)

charlest · « **on:** January 17, 2004, 02:21:41 PM »

I don't understand several recent moves by RG with respect to the Apocalypse and the Rush being introduced so close to one another.

I also do not understand the differences between the Apocalypse, the Rush and the Top Fuel. I do see the differences but they seem to be so minor, in general, that it's more like what Columbia is doing thses days, to their detriment: introducing balls with almost trivial differences, that can be accomplished, almost as well, with almost minor changes in drillings or surfaces.

What I'm saying is the Rush which does not appear to be very different from the Rush, in its intended oil pattern coverage and ball strength, will be over-shadowed by the Apocalypse.

I was tempted in the case of the Top Fuel and then much more so in the case of the Rush, to try these balls, but the more reviews I saw, the more it seemed I already had that ball (the Rush), and its reaction, in the "old" (2 years ago, maybe) Dyno-Thane Remedy, which was also developed by the old Hank Boomershine/Storm team.

--------------------
"Just because you can do something does not mean you should do it."

Jeffrevs · « **Reply #1 on:** January 18, 2004, 12:27:20 PM »

quote:
that it's more like what Columbia is doing thses days, to their detriment: introducing balls with almost trivial differences, that can be accomplished, almost as well, with almost minor changes in drillings or surfaces.

charlest, please, I understand your point, but comparing Columbia to Roto ??
OK, the Pure and the Apoc are very similar sure,...that's one 'close' pair...Columbia has EVERYONE beat hands down!

Roger would be best to explain what is going on.....I too had the same questions as you charlest, and we discussed it over the phone. For fear of not explaining it properly, I'll let Roger chime in.

The Rush is a totally different ball all together, smooth, continuous, low rg....

I do know that the Apoc is the Pure and Top Fuel core w/ an all new stronger solid/pearl cover. Top and Apoc is 2.54 rg Pure is 2.55. The diffs are a hair different too, Top is .050, Apoc is .055, Pure is .056

According to Roger though, the Apoc's cover is stronger than Top and Pure hands down.

It's on TV right now,....Tommy's throwing it......
--------------------
JEFF
Hello, I just lowered my track !

Edited on 1/18/2004 1:34 PM

Edited on 1/18/2004 1:39 PM

Edited on 1/18/2004 3:20 PM

charlest · « **Reply #2 on:** January 18, 2004, 03:51:39 PM »

Folks,

Please stop talking about the Pure Fuel. I didn't mention it and it was not in my comparison.

Mark, I will reply to your statements.

Jeff, Yes, that was one of my feelings: RG is starting to look like Columbia. Storm and Brunswick had stopped doing this, but they have started up again, with many new balls being FAR too close to one another EVEN when you consider the marketing problem of needing to constantly introduce new stuff to the market to keep the attention of fickle-minded customers.
--------------------
"Just because you can do something does not mean you should do it."

tenpinspro · « **Reply #3 on:** January 18, 2004, 05:33:09 PM »

Hi Charlest,

I'm sorry but I see a huge difference between the Apocalypse and Rush. All the Rushes I've drilled look very smooth and even with continous motion to the pins. Tha Apocalypse is for less oil and reminds me of a weaker El Nino. It skids quite a bit in oil but when it found dry it made a tremendous turn in the backend, completely different then the Rush. Actually had to drill out some pos static after testing to tame the ball on the backend, was a little o/u ish. Both balls drilled similar (5x4 1/2)...hope this info helps....
--------------------
Rick Leong
Ten Pins Pro Shop
Track Pro Shop Staff
Vise Grip Staff

Jeffrevs · « **Reply #4 on:** January 18, 2004, 06:06:35 PM »

quote:
Folks,
Please stop talking about the Pure Fuel. I didn't mention it and it was not in my comparison.

charlest, I mentioned the Pure because it's the same core as the Apoc and the Top. It's a logical ball to throw into the comparisons. True, you didn't mention it, but when Mark did, I wanted to elaborate a little, not much, but a little

also, this is a quote from your original post...

quote:
I don't understand several recent moves by RG

Several ? The Rush and Apocalypse? Several? That's 2, and they are very different balls,....these 2 at least.

quote:
Jeff, Yes, that was one of my feelings: RG is starting to look like Columbia.

charlest, as much as I respect EVERYTHING you say, and you know I look to you for advice as well, I'm going to whole heartedly disagree with this comment.
Columbia has introduced 3 Throttles, Wired, Formula , and Ego in the a last 2 months,..(6) all together......you CANNOT compare RotoGrip to that....no way.

The Rush is a totally different ball than anything else Roto has...so let's let that dog sleep. There isn't much to compare there

The Apoc true, has the same core as the Top and Pure, however, they are introducing a brand new coverstock (stronger than Top and Pure). They've discontinued the Fuel, and now have 3 Fuel balls.....big deal? I would assume because the Top Fuel was first to be announced after the Fuel, that it will be next to go, then you just have 2 Fuels. Yes, the Apoc is close to the Top and Pure but I think the Fuel line is about ready to be re-done and the intro to the new cover is the start....however, I'll let Roger confirm/elaborate if I'm right, or wrong....

Roger, help us all out here, please

--------------------
JEFF
Hello, I just lowered my track !

Jeffrevs · « **Reply #5 on:** January 18, 2004, 06:11:20 PM »

quote:

Sure they may be releasing a lot of balls

Why is this happening............?? Help me understand!

The Rush---Totally different Roto Grip type of ball.

Apoc....similar to a couple Fuels, but brand new coverstock

Sonic Boom,.....PERFECT complement to bridge the Sonic/Streak line....

That's 3 balls in 6 months.....BIG DEAL! And....only ONE of them has some overlap with others that I'm sure are going to be discontinued,...i.e;, the Top Fuel..........that does NOT = "SEVERAL"

--------------------
JEFF
Hello, I just lowered my track !

charlest · « **Reply #6 on:** January 18, 2004, 07:10:25 PM »

quote:
>>with many new balls being FAR too close to one another

Jeff,

When you reply to my other comments please provide the group with some insight as to why you feel the above statement is accurate WRT Roto Grip. I'm also curious as to how many of the Roto balls you have owned, or perhaps not owned but used extensively. By extensively I mean more than throwing a buddies ball that doesn't fit for a few frames. I'd just like to know if your bias is coming from actual experience with the product(s) or if you are drawing conclusions using data from other sources.

Here is my Roto experience in a nut shell:
.
.
Cheers,

Mark

Mark,

The question(s) I was asking had nothing to do with how many RG balls I own or don't own. FWIW, I did/do own a few. I said I did not understand some factors involved with the balls I mentioned, AND ONLY the balls I mentioned, although I can probably bring the Silver Streak into this conversation, I own one but have not drilled it yet), since its characteristics, according to RG and many ballreviews cover the Apocalypse's territory - long and strong backend on medium oil. I did not understand them because I have only what ball reviews (BTM and BJI and what people here have said about them and my observations from local people using them. I admit I have not used any of the ones I mentioned, but have, at times, seriously considered them.

My point with the similarity reference to Columbia was (and I have already mentioned this before) that it seems that when they bring out such close balls,
Can they, let's say the Apocalypse and the Rush, not be made to react similarly with changes to drilling and/or surface?
I was actually asking that question, BECAUSE I wanted to know.
I was not, as seems to be implied, by both you, Mark, and by Jeffrevs, saying that they could be and therefore it was not proper for RG to bring out the Apocalypse. Again, I was not saying that. I was asking that! BiG difference.

When I ask a question, I ask the question; I do not deal in double talk; I am not implying the opposite.

OK. By drilling and surface changes:
- If I place the Apoc's pin at 4" from PAP and the Rush's at 5" and add a little polish, how different will the reaction be?
- If I drill the drill the Apocalypse 4x2 and the Silver Streak stacked Leverage, how different will the reaction be?
- If I sand the Top Fuel to 1500 and leave it dull and leave the APocalypse at 1000 and drill them the same, how different will the reaction be?

These are NOT the specific things I am interested in.
These are the types of things I am interested in.

I thought RG was bringing out really different balls, like Dyno-Thane is. Balls that would be hard to make react in a manner similar to other balls with just drilling and surface changes. This, on both RG's and DT's part, is a VERY GOOD IDEA!

I asked these questions about these RG balls, because I thought Boomershine and Roger were trying to do the same thing. The intro of the Apocalypse made me wonder; it added "fuel to the fire", so to speak and I am asking questions. Does anyone understand that??
(AGAIN, I was "wondering"; I was not saying it was so. I try to write EXACTLY what I mean. I HATE misunderstandings like this, as it mostly requires many more words to clear it all up.) You guys are getting like my wife, trying to answer the implied question, instead of answering the stated question.

Mark,
Yes, I understand the concept of marketing; A new color on a similar ball can make all the difference on the world in sales, even to men. Balls used to be offered in different colors. I believe (notice that word; I didn't say "know", nor "think") that the Silver Streak should have been offered in more than one color. Black does not sell very well these days.

Jeff,

You said,
"The Rush is a totally different ball than anything else Roto has...so let's let that dog sleep. There isn't much to compare there."

Is it?
Again, I ask, "If you drilled a Silver Streak, oh, say 3x3 or 3x2, and sanded it to 800 or 1000 grit dull, how close would that be to a Rush's reaction, if you drilled it, say 4x4, and left it box?"
I don't know. I am just guessing how one might approximate the other, via some extremely simple adjustments.

PLEASE REMEMBER:
I remain fairly impressed with the work done by RG, overall in the last 3 years or so. In the Brunswick, Storm, Columbia (and now, AZO & Track) world of one release every 34 seconds, RG's purposefulness is refreshing and their ball choice has made it easy to create an arsenal. For my money they are almost in the same rank as Dyno-Thane (this is my opinion; I have enough arguments on my hands right now, thank you.), as far as I am concerned.

--------------------
"Just because you can do something does not mean you should do it."

Jeffrevs · « **Reply #7 on:** January 18, 2004, 07:44:34 PM »

quote:

I was actually asking that question, BECAUSE I wanted to know.
I was not, as seems to be implied, by both you, Mark, and by Jeffrevs, saying that they could be and therefore it was not proper for RG to bring out the Apocalypse. Again, I was not saying that. I was asking that! BiG difference.

When I ask a question, I ask the question; I do not deal in double talk; I am not implying the opposite.

Charlest, fair enough!

Thanks for the clarification, I'm glad you did that, because in both your prior posts, there are ZERO question marks there, and I think , personally, thats where I misunderstood you....sorry.

quote:
OK. By drilling and surface changes:
- If I place the Apoc's pin at 4" from PAP and the Rush's at 5" and add a little polish, how different will the reaction be?

Charlest, to quote THE most overall knowledgable guy on this site...."it depends, as always!!"

I would think because of the core differences, your'e still going to get a smoother overall from the Rush, and a sharper from the Apoc...but that's my assessment ( which doesn't mean much !

)

quote:
- If I drill the drill the Apocalypse 4x2 and the Silver Streak stacked Leverage, how different will the reaction be?

Silver earlier and bigger overall

quote:
- If I sand the Top Fuel to 1500 and leave it dull and leave the APocalypse at 1000 and drill them the same, how different will the reaction be?

Now HERE is where we can be very close, ....no question at all....HOWEVER, the Apocs cover is stronger, so I'd say longer and stronger, but not a BIG difference....

quote:
These are NOT the specific things I am interested in.
These are the types of things I am interested in.

I see this, and I understand, I just wanted to plop my .02 in here, that is all....

quote:
Jeff,

You said,
"The Rush is a totally different ball than anything else Roto has...so let's let that dog sleep. There isn't much to compare there."

Is it?
Again, I ask, "If you drilled a Silver Streak, oh, say 3x3 or 3x2, and sanded it to 800 or 1000 grit dull, how close would that be to a Rush's reaction, if you drilled it, say 4x4, and left it box?"

good question. I would say the Streak will be much stronger on the back due to the core cover combo. Rush, with it's core, is much smoother overall thru the entire lane........

You could "honestly", do these same comparisons to ANY ball company right now, some more than others, some less, but nonetheless, it can be done.

quote:
PLEASE REMEMBER:
I remain fairly impressed with the work done by RG, overall in the last 3 years or so. In the Brunswick, Storm, Columbia (and now, AZO & Track) world of one release every 34 seconds, RG's purposefulness is refreshing and their ball choice has made it easy to create an arsenal. For my money they are almost in the same rank as Dyno-Thane (this is my opinion; I have enough arguments on my hands right now, thank you.), as far as I am concerned.

charlest, there is nothing wrong with the above statement, I would have never added the comment in parethesis, ...it wasn't necessary. It was honest, forthright commentary!

--------------------
JEFF
Hello, I just lowered my track !

Edited on 1/18/2004 8:46 PM

Mustang Guy · « **Reply #8 on:** January 19, 2004, 09:02:11 AM »

Well, I went to post here last night and after my long winded post was finished I got booted off aol and said "I will do it in the morning"!

Hehe

Anyways I am not going to go over all the things I said last night because it is Monday and Monday's are busy. I will however answer Charlest's question because that is what this is about. There is no drilling/surface prep you could put on the Rush that would make it react like an Apocalypse. Simple as that. Columbia and Ebonite sometimes have ball releases that are as many as my entire year of ball releases. So I won't even touch that. I believe with the given 20 feet of lane where the ball hooks any company might have some overlapping in a ball here or there. Obviously with the larger companies you see it all the time and don't expect to see it too often with the smaller companies. I think we are allowed every once and a while to release a ball that might be similar in reaction to another but we don't do it often. This might be the first time ever or in a very long time. I would say this ball compares a lot to a Pure Fuel. The ball reads the lane a touch sooner and makes a stronger harder continuous move on the backend.

Thanks,
--------------------
Roger Noordhoek
Technical & Customer
Services Manager
Roto Grip, Inc.
888-450-6920
RogerN@rotogrip.com
www.rotogrip.com

For all your Roto Grip Logo Merchandise please visit www.rotogear.com

Happy Holidays from Roto Grip!

charlest · « **Reply #9 on:** January 19, 2004, 09:08:03 AM »

Thanks, Roger, for the concise answer. (Would have loved to see the detail that AOL dumped for you.) Keep up the good work.
--------------------
"Just because you can do something does not mean you should do it."

BadShot · « **Reply #10 on:** January 19, 2004, 09:12:28 AM »

wow, this is alot of bantering back and forth . . . sure this isn't supposed to be a lane #1 post?!?!?

i haven't thrown a RG ball in quite awhile, but the apocalypse looks like one i need to try!
--------------------
That which does not kill me makes me stronger . . .

charlest · « **Reply #11 on:** January 19, 2004, 12:12:23 PM »

quote:
Charlest,

Fair enough.
My point was that if you'd used or seen the Rush thrown side by side with any of the balls from the Fuel line you'd very quickly see that regardless of numbers and the reviews that these products are not at all similar. Since the Apoc uses the Fuel core it's going to be different from the Rush as well. That's what is so nice about the Rush - it's way different from the other stuff in the Roto line.

I thought I had made my non-use of these balls clear. My fault.

quote:

Frankly, and this probably isn't the right forum for this discussion, I think the magazine reviews are fun, but not very important except for marketing and brand awareness. There are only so many ways to describe a bowling ball's reaction and provide useful information in print (or on the internet). With time, ball reviews all read the same anyway: "Another good ball from Joe Bowling Company, good length, nice finish, strong hit. Coverstock can be tuned for a perfect reaction on your local wall shot. Blah Blah Blah".

EXACTLY
BTM and BJI no longer, inmy opinion, provide the clear magnifying lens into a ball by reviewing it that they used to provide. My main idea was get the opinion of folks like yourself and Jeff-anti-REVS, (my main target was Roger)who are experienced in RG's use.

quote:

What got my dander up a bit from your post was the suggestion that Roto is pulling a C300 and flooding the market with similar balls. I don't agree with that and think Roto has done a great job of introducing new balls that are distinctive.

Well, I'm glad we cleared up my position - one of inquiry, not of blame.

From "my end of the camera", Columbia used to be my favorite company, as I have said here before. Now they confuse me and iritate me. I get tempted once in a while, like the Icon2 (sold before I could experiment with a re-drill) and more recently the Wired (love that Titanium core). Now their only ball(s) I would buy is one of the Messenger Ti series, any one of them. Possibly one of the finest designs ever to hit the market.

quote:
FWIW, I also share a bad taste for companies that put the same ball out every month. That is one of the reasons that I tend to use equipment from smaller companies. I think you'll agree that I was throwing Dynothane many moons ago when *nobody* even carried their stuff.

I am still throwing an original Concept XXtra (with COlumbia's SuperFlex cover) made by the Wayne Webb-owned Dyno-Thane for Las Vegas. It's my last one of Four I have owned. Still hits like a ton of bricks on many conditions.
Sigh ... (I'd pay $200 for another NIB!)

quote:

Fun discussion - thanks for initiating it.

I apologize for our having gotten off on the wrong foot.

Jeffrevs,
You should know me much better by now. I am disappointed. Th eOwl has spoken!

Again, guys, everyone!
Pleae read what I write. Don't try to interpret me. I can't, my wife can't, after 35 years of marriage. Why should you be any different?

quote:

Roger - I never write long posts when using AOL.

Roger, Mark, this is the 21st century, Get with it and get a cable modem or otherwise hardwire your system. A cable modem is a better, faster connection than I had when I was working for a telecommunications research company. I can download multi megabytes pretty quickly and never get disconnected.

Mark, I hope you agree to some private messaging regarding RG and DT balls.

- charlest
--------------------
"Just because you can do something does not mean you should do it."

Author Topic: Ball differentiation and introduction dates ??? (Read 2750 times)

charlest

Ball differentiation and introduction dates ???

Jeffrevs

Re: Ball differentiation and introduction dates ???

charlest

Re: Ball differentiation and introduction dates ???

tenpinspro

Re: Ball differentiation and introduction dates ???

Jeffrevs

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Jeffrevs

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charlest

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Jeffrevs

Re: Ball differentiation and introduction dates ???

Mustang Guy

Re: Ball differentiation and introduction dates ???

charlest

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BadShot

Re: Ball differentiation and introduction dates ???

charlest

Re: Ball differentiation and introduction dates ???