The house I bowl in and maybe my whole area just don't seem to use Roto-Grip stuff. In my league, one guy has a Sonic X and another guy has an old Bandit II. I have my Apoc (thanks Jeff!!), Blue, Rush and Sonic X to get us up to 6 balls in the house. I saw another guy with an Oracle and a Top Fuel at my driller yesterday, but that's really about it. A sub on my team says he can't get the Roto stuff to hook -- this guy throws the ball about 25mph with a ton of revs using a down and in shot. Don't know what he's tried, but it couldn't have been their higher end stuff. Other than that, I have never heard anything but great comments about Roto-Grip. Wonder why they haven't caught on here in York?