BallReviews
Equipment Boards => Storm => Topic started by: 2handedrook12 on January 01, 2013, 08:34:47 AM
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Hi everyone, I am looking for a heavy oil to medium ball. I want something cheaper not a 240$ ball. I plan on using a strong drilling as well. 18 mph 500+ revs high axis tilt. Current arsenal: hammer saw blade, virtual gravity(inconsistent reaction), storm frantic, storm t road(drilled really weak), brunswick danger zone hpd, brunswick danger zone(original).
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As a two handed, you have to remember that asyms are going to give you a dialed in reaction. Meaning the more hand you have, the faster the ball gets into a spin and the quicker the ball wants to hook. Strong asyms will tend to be smoother on the backend because the ball spins to axis before the desired breakpoint downlane. This is why you get inconsistent reaction from your VG. A weaker drill on that ball will yield a better reaction. Or get the ball out earlier, so it can hook closer to the breakpoint that the ball wants to hook at.
Also be aware of you PAP. I see it time and time again with High Rev Bowlers. They have a PAP that goes down (ex. 5 over and 1" down) using pin high layouts and it puts the pin at 6" and even 7" from the PAP making the ball a dud.
With that said, you may want to look into strong symmetrical equipment for heavy oil. Something like an !Q solid, Frieght Train, Omen, Arson will do the trick for you on heavier patterns with drilling and proper surface.
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With that said, you may want to look into strong symmetrical equipment for heavy oil. Something like an !Q solid, Frieght Train, Omen, Arson will do the trick for you on heavier patterns with drilling and proper surface.
Righty,
I wonder with his 500 rpms, if those suggestions might be too strong to cover medium to heavy oil??? They might be closer to medium-heavy to true heavy oil candidates.
2handedrook12,
These days few balls will allow you to cover both medium and heavy oil. BUT, of course, on house patterns (vs tougher sport conditions) will often hide the difference between balls. PLUS most often, house patterns are blends that allow you to move left and right with the same ball, but some of them do use wet/dry patterns. It's hard to know how your house (or houses) will play with any single ball.
I'd suggest one ball for medium to medium-heavy oil and the rare stronger ball for medium-heavy to heavy oil. VERY, VERY few house put down a heavy oil house pattern; even fewer tournaments do so.
I think medium to medium heavy oil balls (in the inexpensive range) might be the Storm Victory Road Solid, Brunswick Maxxed-Out, Motiv Venom Strike, 900Global Sure Thing, DV8 Marauder Madness, Roto-Grip Disturbed.
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I +1 that Charlest, but as I've learned, "give em' what they want," lol! You are correct in the fact that my choices are strong, however, for him a decently long pin to PAP and a 2000 pad will be great for the heavier stuff. As long as its symmetric and has a decently strong cover.
I will also +1 your point that A.) Dont know what he calls heavy and B.) THS will hide differences in balls and C.) 2 balls might be required to cover what he wants. I can only go by what will give him an earlier reaction than what he has. He has a lot of balls that are in the same level as far as performance.
With that said, I think an !Q with a 4-4.5" pin and a 2000 pad for the heavy stuff and a Crossroad with a 5" pin and a 3000 pad to smooth the backend. Those would give him great looks on the Medium-Heavy-Heavy. The !Q will be a dust collector but useful when its that time.
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18mph and 500+ revs = rare that you probably need a true heavy oil ball. The iQ was already mentioned and that could work. I could also see you going possibly with the Roto Grip Disturbed.
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I +1 that Charlest, but as I've learned, "give em' what they want," lol! You are correct in the fact that my choices are strong, however, for him a decently long pin to PAP and a 2000 pad will be great for the heavier stuff. As long as its symmetric and has a decently strong cover.
I will also +1 your point that A.) Dont know what he calls heavy and B.) THS will hide differences in balls and C.) 2 balls might be required to cover what he wants. I can only go by what will give him an earlier reaction than what he has. He has a lot of balls that are in the same level as far as performance.
With that said, I think an !Q with a 4-4.5" pin and a 2000 pad for the heavy stuff and a Crossroad with a 5" pin and a 3000 pad to smooth the backend. Those would give him great looks on the Medium-Heavy-Heavy. The !Q will be a dust collector but useful when its that time.
Agreed. Without a little bit more specific information, there's a huge variety of balls that will work for him.
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Well I am a high school bowler so I am looking for a ball that handles medium heavy sorry not heavy I should have worded this better earlier. But most of those balls are too strong and too high in price ( my pro shop charges 180 for a victory road) so maybe between a manic, shooting star etc. So can you try again. Remember, these tournaments have about 44 ft of oil n schorching backends in the last 7ft.
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No disrespect but, you asking a lot. The balls Ive mentioned arent too much unless you not bowling on what you think. Even though the pattern is 44 ft, how much volume is involved? Balls hook before the end of the pattern so if what Ive mentioned is too much, (Crossroad with a 5" pin to PAP), maybe you're not bowling on as heavy a pattern as you think.
A strong drilling in a weak ball would get the ball to axis too quickly, hince why your VG, which would handle all the oil and more, is inconsistent. Why does that ball not able to handle what you are bowling on?
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A little FYI you can still purchase a Victory Road solid on buddies for 79.95. I doubt your pro shop can match this deal and charge you that much for drilling.
As far as medium-heavy balls are concerned, the 900 Global Sure Thing, AMF Cobra remake, AMF Green Mamba, Columbia Oath, and the new Storm Reign of Power looks like a very promising release for your needs and price range. Hope this helps.
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Ok thanks for the help. I will probably buy the victory road solid if I get a ball before the reign of power comes out. That virtual gravity is not drilled very strong. Whenever I need to move to about 27on the boards with that ball I get pocket splits, ten pins, and just all around terrible consistency. Sometimes it doesn't even move. But I have one last question. Isn't there a bit of a gap between a victory road solid and a frantic? The reason I ask is because my frantic would be perfect to start a tournament if it wasn't a polished hybrid. So what is the difference betweem the hotline and thunderline? I have seen my friend throw a fire road that doesn't EVER make a move. And I've also been told that the frantic and manic outhook the vctory road. So has anyone thrown the victory road solid and a manic. Or a crossroad and the frantic. I realize I am asking a tall order so I really appreciate all the recommendations thus far.
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The thunderline is miles and above hotline. The Crossroad and Fireroad are extremely strong and angular; however, they are also surface specific. The Fireroad is a 3000 pad away from being probably the best in anyones bag; the box surface makes the ball go 60ft. I can tell you how many we've drilled in the shop, people come back and say the ball doesnt hook, we hit it with a 2000 or 3000 pad and the ball comes to life. My best friend (power stroker, 16mph, 450 rpms) has one and loves it after he hit it with the pad.The same can be said about the Crossroad. I have 2 of them, my best friend has 3. All with different drills and different surfaces and they all work. Those two are awesome balls.
The manic and frantic are two great entry level balls that have bred success. However, you are again confusing backend motion with hook. The frantic can out-backend almost any ball, however, it need friction to do so. Whereas, the Victory Road solid will not need as much friction to hook and the motion will be earlier. Thats the trade off for a stronger ball, an earlier motion and less backend. The manic might suffice but in true oil the ball will skid because there is not enough friction, and the core and cover are not strong enough. The Victory Road Solid can be a ball that is great for medium heavy, but I dont like the core/cover combo. The cover wants the ball to hook early and the core wants it to push downlane. It can be a matchup nightmare at times, but at 80 bucks, its worth a shot.
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So which would you suggest I get. A crossroad, fireroad, or vr solid. I would like to try the 3000 because I am looking for an early motion. As you can see, all of the balls I own backend more than I need. Even being a two hander I am not obsessed with backend hook. Thanks for clearing up the difference between the thunder line and the hot line.
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If you are looking for bang for the buck, $80 for a Victory Road Solid isnt a bad idea. That was a great recommendation by JP. Understand that the ball is early and strong off the spot. This is the type of reaction being replaced by the Reign of Power, a mid-price ball that can handle oil.
The Crossroad is my recommendation if you want to spend the extra money. Its a really good ball especially with surface. It will roll a little heavier than the VR Solid its a harder rolling ball. The FireRoad, I would not recommend for heavier patterns. Even with surface, the ball still needs friction. That would be defeating the purpose of what you are looking for.
I would however like to see a pic and know what you PAP is to get a better understanding of you VG. I think that is the ball for you on the heavy stuff, you just have to learn how to use it. Maybe it just needs surface, a 3000 or 2000 pad might be the ticket.
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What surface do you have on your Virtual Gravity? Personally I did not like the out of box surface (500, 4000). If it is out of box, I would take it from box to a "true" 3000 grit; meaning start at 500, then go 1000, then 2000, then 3000. Also make sure that the ball is not saturated in oil as they tend to soak oil pretty quickly.
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Ok thanks for the help. I will probably buy the victory road solid if I get a ball before the reign of power comes out. That virtual gravity is not drilled very strong. Whenever I need to move to about 27on the boards with that ball I get pocket splits, ten pins, and just all around terrible consistency. Sometimes it doesn't even move. But I have one last question. Isn't there a bit of a gap between a victory road solid and a frantic? The reason I ask is because my frantic would be perfect to start a tournament if it wasn't a polished hybrid. So what is the difference betweem the hotline and thunderline? I have seen my friend throw a fire road that doesn't EVER make a move. And I've also been told that the frantic and manic outhook the vctory road. So has anyone thrown the victory road solid and a manic. Or a crossroad and the frantic. I realize I am asking a tall order so I really appreciate all the recommendations thus far.
You just told us part of the issue and I dont think you realize it. You stated that when you get in towards 27 at the arrows your reaction is terrible. Thats because the VG is a very early rolling piece. The only way you are going to get any carry from that deep is you would need to put some polish on it and/or you would need alot of axis rotation to conserve some energy and create angle into the pocket. Balls used that deep on the lane typically need to be angular on the backend in order to have a high carry percentage.
Now we just need your axis point. Me also being a two hander, my axis point is 5 1/2 over by 0. When I get that deep, I typically take something, put the pin at 4 1/2 - 5 inches from PAP, kick the cg/mb out, and put a weight hole in P3 or even P4 if the diff is lower on it. The pin up distance helps the ball through the heads and the weight hole down helps with midlane transition and backend continuation. I have a Violent Eruption drilled like that and it is my go to ball when I get deeper and I rarely leave 10 pins with it.
Just as an FYI to gauge from, I am 18.5 - 19 mph at release, 540rpm rev rate, very little axis tilt, and about 35 degrees axis rotation. As I get deeper, I increase my axis rotation to closer to 55 degrees if I need to in order to help increase my angle into the pocket.
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I do keep my virtual polished as whenever it is sanded, it just tames the backend reactionand becomes useless. I. Also have resurfaced the virtual gravity and yet it still has no movement unless its polished. I feel I could just get a more predictable motion out of a new ball. I may still redrill this ball later as none of the bowling balls I own are drilled for me anymore. I have not got a new ball since my taboo spare whichnhas started to crack. But I have another question before I go on to buy a crossroad or vr solid. Everyone in the forum says the balls such as the frantic have too weak of a cover compared to the iq tour pearl's. Even though both are r2s. So how is it that a victory road has. A lightly stronger cover than the fringe? Is there something storm has said that I'm not catching.
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I do keep my virtual polished as whenever it is sanded, it just tames the backend reactionand becomes useless. I. Also have resurfaced the virtual gravity and yet it still has no movement unless its polished. I feel I could just get a more predictable motion out of a new ball. I may still redrill this ball later as none of the bowling balls I own are drilled for me anymore. I have not got a new ball since my taboo spare whichnhas started to crack. But I have another question before I go on to buy a crossroad or vr solid. Everyone in the forum says the balls such as the frantic have too weak of a cover compared to the iq tour pearl's. Even though both are r2s. So how is it that a victory road has. A lightly stronger cover than the fringe? Is there something storm has said that I'm not catching.
We're talking about the Victory Road Solid, which uses strictly R2S solid coverstock and comes dull. The Frantic uses a solid/pearl combination R2S coverstock and comes highly polished. It will go longer and hook more at the backend than the VR Solid. The Frantic is meant for medium oil at the most. THE VRS will barely handle medium unless you're speed dominant or you polish it. It is a true medium heavy to heavy oil ball.
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+1 with Charlest.
As I've mentioned, the Crossroad and the Victory Road Solid have the Inverted Fe3 Core which was a high rg high diff core designed to promote backend reaction. The NOS core of the frantic is weaker than the Fe3. Thats the difference. The Solid, as Charlest has mentioned, has a solid version of the R2S, and is a really strong cover. As a matter of fact its a shade weaker than the cover on your VG, the R2X. It is well suited for oil.
The !Q Tour Pearl feature the R2S Pearl. Its weaker than the Crossroad, mine is 4/2 less than CR#1, and 7/4 than CR#2.
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Ok I understand now. I didn't realize how close in strength the r2s solid is in comparison to r2x solid. Originally I just assumed it was just a rolly shape with a little more overall movement than its pearl counterpart. But as I have now been well informed the r2s solid is suited for heavier volumes of oil. Thanks everyone.
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Of the stuff out there currently I would suggest the Victory Road Solid. As mentioned the Roto Disturbed might be a good ball also. I will be getting one when they are released!!
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But why is it that some r2s is stronger ex. From what I've been told
Victory road over fringe iq tour pearl over victory road
Victory road solid over manic
Crossroad over frantic
Iq tour solid over victory road solid
If they use the same r2s type then how are there cover stronger than their predecessors
Btw correct me if i m wrong; roto grip hp3=storm thunder line?
Aforementioned the disturbed a great victory road solid replacement
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2 handed,
When you're mixing coverstocks and cores, a lot of variables come into play, including the way people throw balls and the different oil patterns + lane surface on which they bowl.
Then there's the meaning of the word, "Stronger" as it applies to bowling balls. Sometimes people mean one ball has more backend than another, sometimes they mean one ball handles more oil than another.
Add in the fact that house patterns tend to hide the differences between balls and you could have people saying the Tropical Breeze is a stronger ball than the Virtual Gravity Nano.
If you could have one skilled bowler throw all these balls drilled identically on 2 or 3 port patterns, then you could more obviously see the differences between them.
Until then you have to listen carefully, look EXTREMELY carefully and analyze what people say versus what you see to get where you need (not "want") to be.
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Ok thanks for the Fact. Nice to hear a rational statement on bowling balls for a change.
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Ok thanks for the Fact. Nice to hear a rational statement on bowling balls for a change.
Let me add something to what Charlest said and also help answer a question about why one ball with a cover hooks more than another ball with the same cover. The thing about coverstocks, is that they start with a base and then there are additives added to the cover. I am going to use 2 Columbia balls as an example; the Mass Eruption and the Freeze Hybrid. If you look at their covers, they are "identical". But what you dont know is that the Mass Eruption has more of an additive in the cover so that it will handle a higher volume of oil than the Freeze Hybrid. Granted they have different cores. But, that plays a part in why the Freeze is labeled as a medium to light oil ball and the Mass Eruption is labeled as a medium to heavy and they are at completely different price points.
Another example is the Ebonite Black Ice and the Ebonite V2 solid. One thing that led me to get the Black Ice, is I heard that the cover was "a version of the cover on the V2". They are supposedly the same cover. However, the cover on the Black Ice is weaker than the V2 due to the additives.
If you want to talk about the R2S covers; lets say you take one test tube with the R2S base, and add 2 drops of an additive from a dropper, then you take another test tube with the same R2S base and add 10 drops of another additive, they are both R2S "technically". But they will be quite different in regards to how they react.
So, there are a some examples to throw out there. Just because 2 shelf talkers for 2 different balls advertise the same coverstock; that doesnt mean they are necessarily "exactly" the same.
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I I have never heard of such but it makes perfect sense. And that was a great example and what I was looking for in that storm does not tell everything about their bowling balls. Tho I can understand why as I was confused on the strength of their bowling balls due to the cover misconsumption.