Author Topic: Invasion not what I expected (Read 13173 times)

nmbr1sun99 · « **on:** January 31, 2010, 06:12:09 AM »

I recently got my Invasion... Drilled it 4x4x1 as noted for hi rev and speed bowler. The ball is barely having any reaction. Took the surface down to 2000 and it had some life. I am now debating taking the surface down to 1000.

Any suggestions before I contact Storm?

I purchased the ball for use on heavy oil PBA pattern and tournament patterns. Now is the time I need this ball. I can't afford to wait for a replacement.

joblo1978 · « **Reply #46 on:** February 04, 2010, 06:39:48 AM »

Really?

I've laid out several of my own balls and had holes put where I wanted and get my desired reaction, so whatever dude.

Kegel bowling ball tech school is only 3 days, so get over yourself. Oh yeah, a really difficult thing to obtain certification for. Sorry, but I've gone on to bigger and better things in life besides drilling holes in a ball for a living.

Maybe you just struggled with 8th grade geometry and it's hard for you to use a ruler. Maybe your pro-sect didn't come with an instruction manual and you're a little confused on what all those numbers mean.

I don't understand why, but I can see how that would be an issue for you when it comes to things like this.

Easy stuff man, and more than one way to get to a desired outcome. Takes a whole 2 min. to draw 3 semicircles, or 2 angles and one measurement with a little knowledge of the bowler and what reaction they want, providing they know what they want and a little about their physical game. No reason to make things complicated or try and split hairs, it's unnecessary.

Simply saying "drill the ball strong" is a relative term, and I'm not going to waste any more time explaining myself, level of knowldge and skill to anyone after this post.

Most people don't even know the slightest thing about what they want out of a bowling ball or what a PAP is.

Do I know EVERYTHING, no, never claimed to, but neither does anyone else. But there are plenty of resources, docs. (such as the Morich dual angle layout guide), and charts to make understanding this stuff really simple provided you have a basic understanding of physics, geometry, and have the brain capacity to make a mental image of what you're doing when aligning the core with the bowler. Yes, a good grasp of the basics can be had with a few hours of research and messing around with a quarterscale on some of your own equipment.

I know enough to get what I want/need out of a ball layout wise, and I'll never have another pro-shop operator try and tell me what I need and randomly put holes in my gear.

Nothing more is really necessary.

quote:
quote:
What's so wrong with this post?

Ever tried to roll a ball with an ounce and a half of sideweight? I have, rolls crazy early. If mass bias was so important, every ball would have one, symettrical balls do not as we all know. Placing the CG to shift weight is going to move the mass bias as well so....

Whatever guys.

I'm not completely ignorant when it comes to this.

quote:
quote:
You should learn a litle about ball layouts, your PAP, and the sweet spots to place your pin for your style. MB is fairly important, but not as important as CG location which ends up giving you your static weight . Pin to PAP is the most important, that's where you get length and can really control the hook you get.
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-John B.
734 high series, 278 high game

runs and hide from future posts being made about the above statment

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-John B.
734 high series, 278 high game

Really enjoyin' the Virtual Energy and Mutant Cell right now

Yeah....actually you are very ignorant in your posts. Please do everyone a favor and quit commenting on things you know nothing about. Learn something and then comeback maybe.
--------------------

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-John B.
734 high series, 278 high game

Really enjoyin' the Virtual Energy and Mutant Cell right now

icewall · « **Reply #47 on:** February 04, 2010, 07:13:32 AM »

"runs and hide from future posts being made about the above statment"

that was a wise choice :-)

but seriously. anyone who makes the statement that cg has more effect then mb loses all credibility right away.
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tweener
300 revs
16 mph
15 degrees of tilt

joblo1978 · « **Reply #48 on:** February 04, 2010, 07:49:46 AM »

Well, maybe I didn't state that in the best possible way.

Bowling balls didn't always have a mass bias, and still today not every ball has it actually marked. It's not THAT important on all balls. If your drilling a symettrical ball, how else are you going to place your artificial MB without measuring through the CG? How else are you going to determine if a weight hole is necessary other than CG placement and static weights?

What if your ball has 0-.5" pin placement? You simply cannot find the MB without the CG.

Whether you prefer to use MB or CG placement after selecting your desired pin to PAP, one or the other is going to fall where it does.

CG only counts for maybe 10% of ball reaction.

We're getting off topic here, but I too agree that a 4x4 on an Invasion would be great for someone that gets less hand on the ball and a higher degree of axis tilt.

quote:
"runs and hide from future posts being made about the above statment"

that was a wise choice :-)

but seriously. anyone who makes the statement that cg has more effect then mb loses all credibility right away.
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tweener
300 revs
16 mph
15 degrees of tilt

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-John B.
734 high series, 278 high game

Really enjoyin' the Virtual Energy and Mutant Cell right now

agroves · « **Reply #49 on:** February 04, 2010, 08:03:22 AM »

quote:
If mass bias was so important, every ball would have one, symettrical balls do not as we all know.

Actually, ALL drilled balls do. But, I''m sure you knew that in your one hour of learning and research.
--------------------
Proshop Operator
North Bowl Bowling Center
www.northbowlspokane.com
ctwings10--"Here''s the problem with any retail service - You can''t fix stupid."

Edited on 2/4/2010 9:04 AM

Dan Belcher · « **Reply #50 on:** February 04, 2010, 08:04:25 AM »

joblo1978, yeah, the mass bias on a symmetrical ball (it's not marked, but technically it barely exists) doesn't matter very much at all. (And when placed within the legal static weight limits, the CG doesn't have that big of an effect beyond dictating what kind of x-hole you can use to alter ball reaction) However, on a ball like the Invasion with a significant amount of intermediate differential, that mass bias makes a BIG difference in how it rolls. For example, I recently redrilled a Mutant Cell because I had placed the mass bias too far away from my VAL and made the ball a little too long and too flippy. I barely moved the pin and the CG, but swung the mass bias about two inches closer to my VAL, and suddenly the ball has a predictable midlane roll it didn't have before.

joblo1978 · « **Reply #51 on:** February 04, 2010, 08:10:25 AM »

Yes, I know, once you drill you have in effect created one. Doesn''t take a genius to figure that out.

quote:
quote:
If mass bias was so important, every ball would have one, symettrical balls do not as we all know.

Actually, ALL drilled balls do. But, I''''m sure you knew that in your one hour of learning and research.
--------------------
Proshop Operator
North Bowl Bowling Center
www.northbowlspokane.com
ctwings10--"Here''''s the problem with any retail service - You can''''t fix stupid."

Edited on 2/4/2010 9:04 AM

--------------------
-John B.
734 high series, 278 high game

Really enjoyin'' the Virtual Energy and Mutant Cell right now

Edited on 2/4/2010 9:10 AM

joblo1978 · « **Reply #52 on:** February 04, 2010, 08:31:51 AM »

"Moving" the mass bias will always move the pin and CG to some degree. I see the MB as a fine tuning device for the shape of the hook which it is. To me, the shape of the hook isn't as important as WHEN the ball hooks. Pin and CG placement will always be effected by mass bias movement and is the byproduct of it.

The reason its placement seems to have such a big difference is because on the cover of the ball it is further away from the pin than the CG. Put the MB wherever you want and let the pin and cg fall wherever if you want, that works too. There are multiple methods to lay out a ball and get what you're looking for other than JUST MB placement.

Moving the MB closer to you VAL is going to result in less flip, a faster revving ball and you got the expected reaction. 2 inches is a good bit dependent on where you had it before.

quote:
joblo1978, yeah, the mass bias on a symmetrical ball (it's not marked, but technically it barely exists) doesn't matter very much at all. (And when placed within the legal static weight limits, the CG doesn't have that big of an effect beyond dictating what kind of x-hole you can use to alter ball reaction) However, on a ball like the Invasion with a significant amount of intermediate differential, that mass bias makes a BIG difference in how it rolls. For example, I recently redrilled a Mutant Cell because I had placed the mass bias too far away from my VAL and made the ball a little too long and too flippy. I barely moved the pin and the CG, but swung the mass bias about two inches closer to my VAL, and suddenly the ball has a predictable midlane roll it didn't have before.

--------------------
-John B.
734 high series, 278 high game

Really enjoyin' the Virtual Energy and Mutant Cell right now

joblo1978 · « **Reply #53 on:** February 04, 2010, 08:41:42 AM »

I like how you use the term "legal limits".

Because before I knew what I know now, I had some knucklehead hand me a ball that he just punched that was out of legal limits. I couldn''t figure out why my brand new Cell Pearl didn''t look right going through the heads.

So pardon me if I place too much emphasis on CG''s and static weights

Could this be the dude''s problem with the invasion and why it''s "not what he expected", because my Cell Pearl sure wasn''t what I expected after the first roll.

quote:
joblo1978, yeah, the mass bias on a symmetrical ball (it''s not marked, but technically it barely exists) doesn''t matter very much at all. (And when placed within the legal static weight limits, the CG doesn''t have that big of an effect beyond dictating what kind of x-hole you can use to alter ball reaction) However, on a ball like the Invasion with a significant amount of intermediate differential, that mass bias makes a BIG difference in how it rolls. For example, I recently redrilled a Mutant Cell because I had placed the mass bias too far away from my VAL and made the ball a little too long and too flippy. I barely moved the pin and the CG, but swung the mass bias about two inches closer to my VAL, and suddenly the ball has a predictable midlane roll it didn''t have before.

--------------------
-John B.
734 high series, 278 high game

Really enjoyin'' the Virtual Energy and Mutant Cell right now

Edited on 2/4/2010 9:43 AM

icewall · « **Reply #54 on:** February 04, 2010, 09:09:30 AM »

you dont find MB by using the cg.

im not the type to start an argument. but please don't state misinformation. this mans post has gotten way off topic. if you want to strut your ball drilling knowledge / skills then open a new topic in the drilling forum.

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tweener
300 revs
16 mph
15 degrees of tilt

joblo1978 · « **Reply #55 on:** February 04, 2010, 09:21:44 AM »

Maybe not, but you're the type to make an idiot out of yourself with lousy attempts at me.

The MB on a symmetrical ball is 6 3/4" from the pin through the CG. Assymetrical balls have the MB marked on the cover with various symbols and designs. Storm has most recently been using a key.

You should read above. The OP might want to check his static balance on his Invasion and make sure it's within legal tolerances.

If it's not, he could be given the impression that has ball is not hooking, when actually it is, albeit way too early.

Thanks....Dad

quote:
you dont find MB by using the cg.

im not the type to start an argument. but please don't state misinformation. this mans post has gotten way off topic. if you want to strut your ball drilling knowledge / skills then open a new topic in the drilling forum.

--------------------
tweener
300 revs
16 mph
15 degrees of tilt

--------------------
-John B.
734 high series, 278 high game

Really enjoyin' the Virtual Energy and Mutant Cell right now

icewall · « **Reply #56 on:** February 04, 2010, 11:59:47 AM »

ok maybe you misunderstand me. I will say it again politely and in some detail.

the old way of finding the theoretical mass bias on a symmetrical cored ball was 6 3/4" from the pin thru the cg. but it is not the true mb after drilling.

and besides even that, I already mentioned that you hijacked this thread. If you want to strut your ball drilling knowledge ego, open your own thread in the drilling section. It is usually wise to check your ego at the door before taking over someones thread.
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tweener
300 revs
16 mph
15 degrees of tilt

vindo27 · « **Reply #57 on:** February 04, 2010, 01:10:14 PM »

so.....how about that kelly kulick?
p.s. cfd and relax, we are talking about bowling.

StickZ · « **Reply #58 on:** February 06, 2010, 07:34:16 PM »

why do high rev players buy these hook in a box balls? you know its gonna roll out...unless you give them the weakest layouts...you are better off with lower end stuff...IMO
--------------------
Career High Game: 300x2
Career High Series: 774
High Game 09'-10' Season:279
High Series 09'-10':715

KiDSGoTGaMe

joblo1978 · « **Reply #59 on:** February 07, 2010, 10:26:36 AM »

Well, one of my buddies just got one of these Invasions.

He was thinking about a 4x4, but he hasn't bought a new ball in about 10 years, maybe more. I told him that it was gonna hook very early and he was gonna have trouble keeping up with it.

I suggested a 5x3 for him and that's what he went with. Driller put a 2" pin buffer with 5/8 sideweight. His revrate is about 270 and he has matched speed and is a high tracker. He's throwing a 16 pounder also. Ball hooks an insane amount at OOB finish. Easily the strongest ball I've ever seen. Noticeably stronger than my 5x4 mutant cell. He really likes it and told me he's glad he didn't go with a 4x4 after rolling it. He was able to stay with it for 3 games also.

Ball hits very hard and flings messengers like crazy. The Invasion is an absolute beast with the right layout and amount of oil!

Last night on a flush pocket hit, he had a pin come off the backstop, wrap back around the 7 and land on the deck, he's a right hander. Probably the weirdest leave I've ever seen.
--------------------
-John B.
734 high series, 278 high game

Really enjoyin' the Virtual Energy and Mutant Cell right now

completebowler · « **Reply #60 on:** February 07, 2010, 11:59:05 AM »

quote:
Well, one of my buddies just got one of these Invasions.

He was thinking about a 4x4, but he hasn't bought a new ball in about 10 years, maybe more. I told him that it was gonna hook very early and he was gonna have trouble keeping up with it.

I suggested a 5x3 for him and that's what he went with. Driller put a 2" pin buffer with 5/8 sideweight. His revrate is about 270 and he has matched speed and is a high tracker. He's throwing a 16 pounder also. Ball hooks an insane amount at OOB finish. Easily the strongest ball I've ever seen. Noticeably stronger than my 5x4 mutant cell. He really likes it and told me he's glad he didn't go with a 4x4 after rolling it. He was able to stay with it for 3 games also.

Ball hits very hard and flings messengers like crazy. The Invasion is an absolute beast with the right layout and amount of oil!

Last night on a flush pocket hit, he had a pin come off the backstop, wrap back around the 7 and land on the deck, he's a right hander. Probably the weirdest leave I've ever seen.
--------------------
-John B.
734 high series, 278 high game

Really enjoyin' the Virtual Energy and Mutant Cell right now

So now that you have seen an Invasion you realize that you posted yet another ignorant statement earlier.

Storm's most recent MB marking is a lightning bolt....not a key.

And although most on here knew what you were referring to we also knew that, just as your argument about CB's and statics, you simply are not informed about what you are talking.

So now.....carry on to somewhere else. Your credibility here has been shot.
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Author Topic: Invasion not what I expected (Read 13173 times)

nmbr1sun99

Invasion not what I expected

joblo1978

Re: Invasion not what I expected

icewall

Re: Invasion not what I expected

joblo1978

Re: Invasion not what I expected

agroves

Re: Invasion not what I expected

Dan Belcher

Re: Invasion not what I expected

joblo1978

Re: Invasion not what I expected

joblo1978

Re: Invasion not what I expected

joblo1978

Re: Invasion not what I expected

icewall

Re: Invasion not what I expected

joblo1978

Re: Invasion not what I expected

icewall

Re: Invasion not what I expected

vindo27

Re: Invasion not what I expected

StickZ

Re: Invasion not what I expected

joblo1978

Re: Invasion not what I expected

completebowler

Re: Invasion not what I expected