Post by: riggs on October 29, 2008, 01:20:12 AM
http://www.stormbowling.com/bowling-news/story.asp?enewsid=2711&intl=True
Post by: Bigmike on October 29, 2008, 09:41:47 AM
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"Why don't you call me sometime.....when you have no class" ~~Rodney Dangerfield to his college professor in Back to School ~~1986
Mike Craig-Columbus, OH
Post by: Monster Pike on October 29, 2008, 09:56:51 AM
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"The last time I saw a mouth like that, it had a hook in it." Rodney Dangerfield
Post by: backupball on October 29, 2008, 10:20:42 AM
My personal opinion is that trying to destroy the shot for someone else is disgusting, BUT until something is done about it by rule (and this will never happen), I guess you have no choice but to do it. It is sad that bowling has come to this.
Post by: Use2begood on October 29, 2008, 10:24:27 AM
I guess new coaches/coordinators are going to be hired soon........offense and defense.
So much for thinking, hey maybe I can beat him fair and square method. More reasons why this game is just a game and nothing else.
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Opinions welcomed, as long as you listen to mine.
Edited on 10/29/2008 10:35 AM
Post by: DrBob806 on October 29, 2008, 10:53:45 AM
Post by: riggs on October 29, 2008, 10:55:34 AM
I quit thinking of it as right or wrong a long time ago because all that does is take away your focus when you're competing. It's simply a reality you have to deal with.
As I said, bowling is about 1,000 times more complex than it was years ago.
Post by: Monster Pike on October 29, 2008, 11:35:54 AM
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"The last time I saw a mouth like that, it had a hook in it." Rodney Dangerfield
Post by: riggs on October 29, 2008, 11:56:22 AM
Post by: 67camaro on October 29, 2008, 12:10:56 PM
Post by: chitown on October 29, 2008, 01:38:03 PM
quote:
So, let me see if I've got this right... Duke destroyed the middle of the lane for Barnes and Jaros, doing something that his best buddy Voss publicly decried and denounced just a few short years ago. But Loschetter wasn't actually trying to hurt someone else's shot, he was trying to build one for himself. I wonder if Voss thinks what Duke did here is OK?
My personal opinion is that trying to destroy the shot for someone else is disgusting, BUT until something is done about it by rule (and this will never happen), I guess you have no choice but to do it. It is sad that bowling has come to this.
I understand what your saying. However, Norm Duke would of probably not went inside had Rash not jumped outside first. I'm willing to bet others close to Duke could attest to that.
Duke would have no problem playing straight up without touching the others line. During the Columbia 300 tourney in 06' Duke used practice to set up his outside line. The other 4 bowlers he faced were playing inside lines and Duke never messed with their line. Now if the others had tried to mess up his line during practice then im sure Duke would of played defense at that point.
Now I like that approach. Let the others pick their poison.
I also don't fault Rash for playing that card because he probably knew he wouldn't beat Duke on this day playing straight up. So he used those tatics which is fair game.
Post by: chitown on October 29, 2008, 01:41:55 PM
You still can't fault Rash for trying to take his line away. Everyone knows how good Norm is playing outside. Barnes is usually pretty good playing outside lines but just wasn't matched up this time. WRW is the only other guy that can really compete with Duke outside.
Post by: chitown on October 29, 2008, 01:42:38 PM
Post by: tommygn on October 29, 2008, 01:56:48 PM
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Tommy Gollick
Storm Regional/Pro Shop staff
Red Crown Pro Shop Harrisburg, PA
stormbowling.com
Post by: blockhater on October 29, 2008, 02:01:28 PM
Maybe if your salary depended on these cut throat tactics to get you off the poverty line (aka 45th in points) and into a good standard of living, you would understand the case for doing WHATEVER it takes to win. Case closed.
Post by: TWOHAND834 on October 29, 2008, 02:03:45 PM
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Steven Vance
Pro Shop Operator
If anyone out there is worried about the scores being too high, try duckpin!!
Post by: tommygn on October 29, 2008, 02:17:20 PM
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Tommy Gollick
Storm Regional/Pro Shop staff
Red Crown Pro Shop Harrisburg, PA
stormbowling.com
Post by: Mvpbowler on October 29, 2008, 02:45:27 PM
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George Palumbo
Visionary Bowling Products West Coast Sales Rep
VBPwest@yahoo.com
http://www.visionarybowling.com
Post by: Mvpbowler on October 29, 2008, 02:45:41 PM
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George Palumbo
Visionary Bowling Products West Coast Sales Rep
VBPwest@yahoo.com
http://www.visionarybowling.com
Post by: blockhater on October 29, 2008, 03:03:34 PM
I hear the points about rule changes, but very hard to enforce anything and I feel detrimental also.
I personally LIKE the fact that you can deliberately hurt your opponent with strategy. It adds a new dimension to the game! Bowling as a 100% offensive game isn't nearly as interesting a multi-dimensional game. Assuming the status quo of the balls remains, pro bowlers in the future will have to be multi skilled to survive.
Offensive game, as has always been the backbone of the sport. Shot making, managing the lane for yourself.
Defensive game, strategic play for taking your opponent out of his comfort zone, be it psychological (going on for years already) or my trying to hurt his ball reaction.
Counter-offense - in short, the ability to deal with your opponents defense. The physical tools to play the lane however the match plays out (i.e. the middle of the lane gets fried, you gotta make the move right to compete you need the tools!) and also the mental toughness to deal with anything your opponent throws at you.
Just ask the games trash talkers of old and new whether they had a 'defense', Big Ernie S, PA etc.
Post by: tommygn on October 29, 2008, 03:10:53 PM
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Tommy Gollick
Storm Regional/Pro Shop staff
Red Crown Pro Shop Harrisburg, PA
stormbowling.com
Post by: Monster Pike on October 29, 2008, 03:17:30 PM
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"The last time I saw a mouth like that, it had a hook in it." Rodney Dangerfield
Post by: riggs on October 29, 2008, 08:57:57 PM
Bottom line: All this shows how much more complex bowling is now compared to when I started and before.
I have argued many times that bowling is more mentally challenging than it was in the days of carrying 2 balls drilled on the label, finding a place to play and moving a couple of boards in the course of a league or tournament.
There are so many more choices to make, adjustments to make, and things like lane management to consider.
Sure, scores are higher a lot of the time with easy conditions. But in some respects bowling is a lot TOUGHER today than it used to be.
Post by: 230-n-up-or-bust on October 29, 2008, 09:02:33 PM
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Return with your shield or on it. Strength and honor.
"I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous."-Nick Faldo
Me (http://"http://www.myspace.com/root4d20car")
MTIXE
Post by: 230-n-up-or-bust on October 29, 2008, 09:04:17 PM
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Return with your shield or on it. Strength and honor.
"I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous."-Nick Faldo
Me (http://"http://www.myspace.com/root4d20car")
MTIXE
Post by: Platinum Bowler on October 29, 2008, 09:07:12 PM
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B-Car
Post by: Jeff Carter on October 29, 2008, 09:14:35 PM
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Bowl up a Storm,
Jeff Carter
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www.jeffcarterbowling.com
www.myspace.com/jeff1295
Post by: strikealot on October 29, 2008, 09:23:10 PM
quote:
I think you guys should ask Riggs to describe his match play tactics in DuBuque, IA a few years ago !!!
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Bowl up a Storm,
Jeff Carter
www.stormbowling.com
www.jeffcarterbowling.com
www.myspace.com/jeff1295
waiting for answer..just curious
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~<:-0======"IN CG WE TRUST" i chant as i pray to the static weight God...======
Post by: Monster Pike on October 29, 2008, 09:38:24 PM
quote:
Question. Did the article change or anything? Because when I read it, it doesn't say too much about any of the players trying to mess up another player's line, and that is what this thread turned into. Or did all of this just come from the change that Barnes had made between matches?
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B-Car
I think it did. In the original he mentions "team Mexico" referencing the semifinal warmups & how they tried to burn Norm's line & also the one referencing Barnes is outta there too, that preceded what Chris told Norm before the final. Huh, maybe there was some whining by some peeps to the folks in Utah, LOL.
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"The last time I saw a mouth like that, it had a hook in it." Rodney Dangerfield
Post by: 230-n-up-or-bust on October 29, 2008, 09:54:08 PM
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Return with your shield or on it. Strength and honor.
"I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous."-Nick Faldo
Me (http://"http://www.myspace.com/root4d20car")
MTIXE
Post by: tburky on October 29, 2008, 09:55:18 PM
Edited on 10/29/2008 9:56 PM
Post by: riggs on October 30, 2008, 08:10:02 AM
I wrote an article on it for the Ten Pin Journal and it still is in my home computer so I can post it later today.
Dick Evans saw it and wrote a column on it, although he somewhat misunderstood a couple things in it.
Post by: riggs on October 30, 2008, 08:12:02 AM
Someone obviously didn't like it.
What was Jack Nicholson's famous line in "A Few Good Men"?
Post by: mmcfarland300 on October 30, 2008, 08:34:41 AM
Post by: riggs on October 30, 2008, 08:48:12 AM
FYI - Drilled a VIRTUAL and a HY-ROAD yesterday. Will use them this weekend.
Post by: chitown on October 30, 2008, 08:49:11 AM
quote:
Schlem definitely edited the article to take out the lane management stuff.
Someone obviously didn't like it.
What was Jack Nicholson's famous line in "A Few Good Men"?
Why did he do that? I liked his article because he told the real story. He shouldn't have to edit the article because of lane tatics! That's BS!
Post by: Cambumbo on October 30, 2008, 08:51:58 AM
Post by: KennyRambo on October 30, 2008, 04:37:39 PM
Post by: riggs on October 30, 2008, 04:54:47 PM
If you missed last season's Denny's PBA World Championship you missed one of the all-time best blow-ups in PBA history.
Brian Voss memorably lost his composure in losing to Chris Loschetter, at one point grabbing a camera and exclaiming, "Ban sanding bowling balls!" although his exact words were not clear at the time.
Voss's actions caused an uproar on the PBA message boards, with some questioning his sportsmanship.
Voss answered by explaining that Loschetter had rolled a sanded ball during most of practice up 7-9 boards toward the 3-pin, not even trying to hit the pocket. When the show started, Loschetter, who throws a much bigger hook than Voss's normal style, moved in and swung his shot toward that dried out area.
"I don't agree with this," Voss wrote. "Unfortunately, there's no rule to prevent it. . . . Nothing against him, just the rules that allow integrity to be destroyed."
The incident brought to the forefront a long-simmering issue that comes up in regional competition as well.
Is it cheating to try to "set up" a lane? Does it make a difference if you do it to make your shot easier or your opponent's shot harder?
Clearly, it is not cheating, since there's no rule defining practice. And it would be almost impossible to craft one – who is going to be the judge, and what about spare shots and changing lines and balls?
But is it ethical?
My aim when I compete is to win while playing within the rules. So if the rules allow me to do something that can help me win, I do it.
I have rolled shots with the aim of "setting up" a lane – usually to help my line and once to hurt an opponents.
"Defense" is rare because two players usually play similar lines, but I did it against close friend Jeff Carter in 2004-05 where I was playing an outside line and he was playing an inside line. He was crushing me for the second straight game in a best 3-of-5 match. So for the last few frames of the second game I went in to his area with my most sanded ball (a box finish Fear Factor) and threw shots that dried up that area.
He then struggled the next two games and I tied the match before he finally made a major adjustment the fifth game and shot a huge game to win the match.
Without that "defense" I probably would have lost in three straight games.
Did I have mixed emotions? Sure. (Carter had no problem with what I did.)
But what really bothered me is that the rules put me in that situation.
The PBA Tour recently changed the practice rules in an effort to prevent setting up a lane.
Prior to the change, players had 15 minutes of practice on their match play pair. That has been cut to just five minutes – so long as open pairs are available for players to loosen up before the official practice on their pairs.
While 15 minutes is plenty of time to use a sanded ball to dry up an area of the lane with shot after shot – or a plastic ball to carry oil down in a certain way -- five is problematic.
The five-minute rule – which regionals will use when extra lanes are available – is a good start, but to completely eliminate "setting up" a lane, I believe the PBA should adopt Pete Weber's oft-stated position and bring back moving pairs every game during match play – just as it was done during the old round-robin format.
Then you wouldn't be able to sacrifice a game in an effort to win the next one by playing "defense" as I did against Carter.
END END END
Post by: Platinum Bowler on October 30, 2008, 07:42:12 PM
Onto the "defense" idea. I, for one, do not see the big deal in it. I definitely do not see it as cheating or even being unethical, but that is just my opinion.
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B-Car
Post by: dursty on November 03, 2008, 10:19:56 PM
Post by: 230-n-up-or-bust on November 03, 2008, 11:55:39 PM
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Return with your shield or on it. Strength and honor.
"I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous."-Nick Faldo
Me (http://"http://www.myspace.com/root4d20car")
MTIXE