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Author Topic: Storm Drive drilling question  (Read 5746 times)

boblane1015

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Storm Drive drilling question
« on: April 10, 2018, 08:09:41 AM »
Just purchased and looking for drilling suggestions. I'm a speed dominant stroker. Should I go with pin up or pin down.
My stats: 15-16 mph, rev rate 275-300, axis rotation 60-70 degrees, axis tilt 16-20, medium to med-heavy oil house.

Any suggestions highly appreciated. Pro shop guy says go pin down to read the mid-lane and ball will have plenty of energy into pins with good continuation to carry corners.

Update on stats: axis rotation 51-60 and axis tilt is 10 degrees.
Drive will be drilled based off the 4x4x3 pattern.
Will provide another update once it is ready and I have put a few games on it.
I would like to thank everybody for their input!
« Last Edit: April 13, 2018, 12:08:20 PM by boblane1015 »
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DP3

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Re: Storm Drive drilling question
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2018, 12:47:03 PM »
Trust your pro shop guy, he's right. Unless you have Belmo revs, these dual drive balls stink when you drill them with too high of a pin or too weak of a pin placement. Pin down about 4-4 1/2" should get the motor revving up a bit sooner. If your speed is really high, 17-18mph up the boards, I may even suggest go very strong with the pin 3 3/4 and no hole.
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LookingForALeftyWall

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Re: Storm Drive drilling question
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2018, 02:36:14 PM »
Quote from: DP3 on April 10, 2018, 12:47:03 PM
Pin down about 4-4 1/2" should get the motor revving up a bit sooner.

This is wrong.
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DP3

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Re: Storm Drive drilling question
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2018, 02:42:07 PM »
Quote from: LookingForALeftyWall on April 10, 2018, 02:36:14 PM
Quote from: DP3 on April 10, 2018, 12:47:03 PM
Pin down about 4-4 1/2" should get the motor revving up a bit sooner.

This is wrong.

How so, what's your recommendation? That was semantics, but I'm curious on your suggestion for Bob. Keep in mind he has 17deg of tilt which is a LOT and 60-70 degrees rotation which is on the high side. Most balls are going to skid very far for him just based on his release.
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LookingForALeftyWall

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Re: Storm Drive drilling question
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2018, 02:53:54 PM »
Pin down does not get the motor running any sooner than pin up, surface controls the transition from skid to hook, pin up/pin down controls the second transition from hook to roll:

http://news.stormbowling.com/2017/05/10/pin-up-vs-pin-down/

The days of believing a pin down layout will get a ball rolling sooner are over.


And with that, I cannot give Bob a suggestion without knowing what type of ball motion he prefers (slower arcing or quicker transition) and without ever seeing him bowl.  Yes, he put some stats out there but that's not enough to give a good enough answer for what is right for him.  Bob - fill in some blanks!
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DP3

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Re: Storm Drive drilling question
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2018, 03:03:58 PM »
So I guess I should have ended my first post with the first sentence and we could have skipped your no-duh Surface is the #1 factor arguement and master copy & paste skills.

Bob, if your pro shop guy knows how you throw it, I would trust what he has to say if you're dead on set with getting a Storm Drive.
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Impending Doom

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Re: Storm Drive drilling question
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2018, 03:24:49 PM »
Pin down doesn't get it rolling sooner, but it does change the shape of the core. 2.57 and the shape of the undrilled core would indicate that the taller you make that core (pin up) the more erratic the ball motion.

Could you combat that with surface? Sure. But you may get to the place where you use too much surface to really make the ball fit.

That said, all of the pin down Timelesses I've seen that look good are pin down. Haven't seen much of the Drive, but I'd assume the same.
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LookingForALeftyWall

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Re: Storm Drive drilling question
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2018, 03:28:55 PM »
Quote from: DP3 on April 10, 2018, 03:03:58 PM
So I guess I should have ended my first post with the first sentence and we could have skipped your no-duh Surface is the #1 factor arguement and master copy & paste skills.

Bob, if your pro shop guy knows how you throw it, I would trust what he has to say if you're dead on set with getting a Storm Drive.

Yes.  I agree with all of this except I still need work on mastering copy and paste.  I am getting there though with the help of a local certified coach.  I will be up there with the best of them soon enough.... 
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DP3

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Re: Storm Drive drilling question
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2018, 03:38:32 PM »
My beef w/ Leftywall's response was this. The #1 rule of working in a pro shop is, when you're explaining things to someone with little tech knowledge you have to speak in terms that they can understand when they see it. It's clear that Bob doesn't have a ton of expertise or he wouldn't be asking us, that's why I was using semantics in replaying to him with the "motor revving up sooner" speak. I worked in a pro shop from 2001-2008 and drilled enough balls to give one to everyone in a medium size city in America, but I wasn't going to answer Bob's question in a way just to prove "how smart I am". It's easier to put it in laymens terms for a novice so they can associate with their reaction rather than serving them a plate full of copypasta from a Storm drilling sheet.

You can help or you can argue, but if all you're going to do is argue semantics, it doesn't help the original question. The majority of posts in these forums are guys arguing semantics and regurgitating anything that an expert has told them. Anything to let people know "hey I'm just a little bit smarter than you" LOL

Anyone that has thrown a Timeless or Drive pin up vs pin down can tell you Pin up layouts are going to go 55 feet, wiggling like a booty in a twerk video with Bob's 275-300 rev rate, 60-70 deg rotation and 17 deg of tilt.
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tkkshop

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Re: Storm Drive drilling question
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2018, 03:49:41 PM »
Quote from: DP3 on April 10, 2018, 03:38:32 PM
My beef w/ Leftywall's response was this. The #1 rule of working in a pro shop is, when you're explaining things to someone with little tech knowledge you have to speak in terms that they can understand when they see it. It's clear that Bob doesn't have a ton of expertise or he wouldn't be asking us, that's why I was using semantics in replaying to him with the "motor revving up sooner" speak. I worked in a pro shop from 2001-2008 and drilled enough balls to give one to everyone in a medium size city in America, but I wasn't going to answer Bob's question in a way just to prove "how smart I am". It's easier to put it in laymens terms for a novice so they can associate with their reaction rather than serving them a plate full of copypasta from a Storm drilling sheet.

You can help or you can argue, but if all you're going to do is argue semantics, it doesn't help the original question. The majority of posts in these forums are guys arguing semantics and regurgitating anything that an expert has told them. Anything to let people know "hey I'm just a little bit smarter than you" LOL

Anyone that has thrown a Timeless or Drive pin up vs pin down can tell you Pin up layouts are going to go 55 feet, wiggling like a booty in a twerk video with Bob's 275-300 rev rate, 60-70 deg rotation and 17 deg of tilt.
you win the interwebs for the day
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LookingForALeftyWall

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Re: Storm Drive drilling question
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2018, 04:21:55 PM »
My problem is that your response is not semantics and that you are not presenting the characteristics of ball motion from pin up/pin down layouts accurately.  You are now deflecting the fact that you were flat out wrong by calling it semantics.  Your defense is akin to "fake news". 

For the record, I am not trying to be smarter than you.  I am just sick of seeing people being told a pin down layout is going to get "the motor revving sooner" or some derivation of that.  I know through my own experience on the lanes as well as reading about it in various technical articles that this simply is not true.  It has taken a long time for people to catch up to understand this and we need to stop perpetuating the fallacy.  PLEASE STOP!!!  EVEN IF IT'S SEMANTICS!!!!

Thanks.

PS I am on YouTube looking for pin up Timeless's twerking down the lane.  I will report back.
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Impending Doom

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Re: Storm Drive drilling question
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2018, 05:06:37 PM »
If we're getting technical, it does get the "motor revving sooner" because it's lowering the RG.
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LookingForALeftyWall

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Re: Storm Drive drilling question
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2018, 06:05:28 PM »
Quote from: Impending Doom on April 10, 2018, 05:06:37 PM
If we're getting technical, it does get the "motor revving sooner" because it's lowering the RG.

SEMANTICS!!!

Seriously though and without trolling, you are correct.  I will concede this point on a technical basis.  HOWEVER, the lowering of the RG is so minute it is not material to ball motion.  In addition, a pin down ball will have a lower differential and potential for flare.  With less flare and smaller/closer rings of the "bow-tie", less fresh surface is hitting the lanes and the ball therefore skids a little bit longer - albeit an immaterial amount.  What RG giveth, less flare taketh away... 

I still stand by my original posts until someone gets some BluePrint modeling up in here!!!
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Gunso

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Re: Storm Drive drilling question
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2018, 06:06:00 PM »
http://radicalbowling.com/uploads/downloads/Beyond_Ridiculous_Symmetric_Drilling_Instructions.pdf

the only difference in length with maximun hit and length with control (love marketing) is pin up or pin down. the rg of the pap is exactly the same

http://radicalbowling.com/uploads/downloads/Intel_Symmetric_Drilling_Instructions_2018.pdf

the only difference in length and flip and length and arc (have i told you about my love of marketing?) is pin up or pin down . the pin up has a lower rg of the pap

http://radicalbowling.com/uploads/downloads/Cyclops_Pearl_Symmetric_Drilling_Instructions.pdf

here the pin down is slightly lowe in the rg of the pap

From the above information I think we can safely assume it is a crapshoot if the rg is lower or higher if the pin is up or down and in all the above cases the difference would be miniscule and no way the naked eye could see the difference in ball motion because of the difference in the rg
rather than the difference in the int diff and total diffs
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DP3

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Re: Storm Drive drilling question
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2018, 09:22:39 AM »
...still no other suggestions for Bob on his very specific stat driven question.

C'mon gurus, we want answers!
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